Desi

- does anybody else feel that forced induction is getting to be "mainstream." its seems like whoever has the money or parents to shell out 3-5 grand for turbos, or nitrous to make their car fast is starting to lose respect, especially with people who work on cars.
- i think the import scene will be headed towards the all-motor division b/c thats where all the enthusiasts still get to tune their cars. it brings back hard work and dedication to make a car fast rather than paying somebody else to slap a damn turbo or supercharger to your car.

R3DF0G

No offense, but "enthusiasts", for the most part know that there is a lot more potential with a FI setup than there is with a NA setup. All-motor is not all that hard to do, if you have the money and free time to do it, and it's a great way to be different, but FI will alays be able to produce more power.

NeoMagus

yea exactly...personally if I had the money to waste I would not want to spend 3 grand going all motor when I will get more gain spending 3 grand on forced induction.

Desi

redfog, its not about which setup is better or which has the most potential, it about which has more respect. i mean, this past week, i was at a stoplight when a ford escort- not zx2 but early 90's, pulls next to me, revs, and we proceed to race. he sprays in 2nd and obviously beats me. he then switches lanes to get in front of me. we stopped at the next stoplight and he proceeds to spray again but for no apparent reason. i follow him b/c he was heading the same way i was, and i count 2 more times when he sprays. whats up with that?

Voiceofid

iTrader: (3)

that's just dumb

htowncivicEX

For sure, a 13-sec all-motor car will get a lot more respect than a 13-sec turbocharged car. But there's a reason for that. By going all-motor, you're choosing the much harder and more expensive route of producing power. Erick Aguilar (TODA Racing) holds the world-record for an all-motor Honda at 10.5~something; the record was set at the 2002 IDRC Longhorn Nationals a month ago in San Antonio. By contrast, Quick Class and Outlaw Class cars (turbo, nitrous, anything goes) consistently break into the 9's and Steph Papadakis regularly runs 8's.

Building a super fast all-motor car is extremely difficult and costly. The future may prove me wrong, but I do not believe that N/A technology will ever be able to produce the same results as forced induction. I think Erick's Racing will be able to push their Civic into the 9's within two years, but by then Steph Papadakis and Co. will probably be running 7's.

Because N/A race cars are at such a handicap to turbocharged cars, they need to pull out all the stops and use every trick in the book to gain power. When you are applying this to street vehicles, N/A cars are at a big disadvantage to FI cars. To get anywhere near 300 whp with no forced induction, you would have to make modifications to your engine (head porting for power only on the top end, race-only cams, individual throttle bodies for each cylinder, super high compression, etc.) that would render your car pretty useless on the street. Anyone who has ridden in a N/A car equipped with a race-only cam (super long duration, max lift) knows what I'm talking about. The idle is real lopey, sounds like crap, and the car doesn't have a chance in hell of passing emissions. Also, raising the compression of the engine to anything greater than 12:1 (by using high compression pistons, milling the head, or both) forces you to use race gas to avoid detonation.

However, it is possible to build a moderately fast N/A street car. Just don't expect to be able to beat a similarly-equipped turbocharged car. But you can take comfort in the fact that your motor will most likely be around long after the turbo cars blow their bottom ends. By going for mild N/A performance on a street vehicle, you're basically sacrificing power for better reliability/longevity. Keep in mind that this last point only applies to N/A street vehicles - neither Erick's Civic (N/A) nor Papadakis's Civic (turbo) are suitable for the street. When you get up their level of performance, your car becomes track only.

vicLX

the way i see this HOBBY... is that when I started i called it sooping up the car.... now I call it customizing B/C your making your car a part of you... and it cant be the same as everyone elses... no one wants to be the same... FI or NA or pedal power on a bike.. if YOU like it ... its all that matters.....

when it comes to FI or NA its all in taste...

jaje

iTrader: (1)

there are three basic fi setups (nitrous, turbo, s/c)...i made this list so everyone can add to it...i haven't listed all the +/-s of each setup

note: to soroichiro honda it is cheating...he found n/a power more challenging

normally aspirated
advantages
best reliability
get some respect from engine builders to not go fi route

disadvantages
unless full race prepped engine you'll most likely be slower than the fi car
as expensive as just buying a fi kit (more expensive than nitrous)
can't drive a prepped engine on street (terrible idle and emissions)

nitrous
advantages
cheap

disadvantages
drag racing or 1 time bursts only...can't use for road racing or autox
significantly reduces engine lifetime depending on how much nitrous is used

turbo is the most common fi platform
advantages
best power with large turbos
turbos & mgmt systems have increased in reliability
can get tt setup to reduce turbo lag (small and large turbo)

disadvantages
turbo is another thing to go wrong with car and maintain
if not properly tuned will significantly reduce engine lifetime
owners wind up trying to increase boost to point they blow the engine
has to build boost (turbo lag)
most expensive fi method

s/c also common setup
advantages
belt driven = instant boost best low end torque setup
another part on engine to go wrong & maintain

disadvantages
parasitic drive loss (belt driven)...won't ever give maximum power potential as a turbo
expensive

Macko

SEEMS that everyone nowadays is into producing MAD power... they only time you get to prove your power is in Drag situations...i'm still into road/circuit races (you know the kind with turns ?) that's where power isn't everything.. it's just my 2 cents...

Desi

jaje, great post

do u think its more expensive to maintain a FI like turbo or maintaining an all-motor engine.

htowncivicEX

All-motor setups are pretty reliable, so there isn't too much extra maintenance required for a N/A car. Unless of course, your compression is so high that you have to go out of the way to purchase high octane gas.

With a turbocharger, you have to really watch your oil level and how much oil you're burning. I would not go more than 2500-3000 miles without changing the oil (synthetic or otherwise) if I was running a turbocharger. Turbos put a lot of strain on the engine block, and the possibility of blowing pistons and bending rods always exists (especially if you boost all the time on the freeway).

But that's the price you pay for extra power...

blkEM1

If I had a Type R id go all motor...anything else FI is a must.