Car Buying FYI
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Disclaimer: This is for informative purposes only, it does not reflect the opinions or thoughts of 7thgencivic.com.
After seeing so many misconceptions float around the forum, I thought I’d offer up my experience as a person on the other side. I have been in the auto industry my entire career, from a Finance Manager, Sales Manager, and now an Underwriter. I know the dealerships point of view, the bank’s, and even the customers, so I understand the business inside and out. I will begin with what to do by showing you what to know before you go to the dealership. Remember, an educated consumer is dangerous, but don’t go in acting like you know everything because you read it on the forum. Over the next week, I will be adding a section per day (work allowing).
OUTLINE:
1. KNOW YOUR CREDIT
2. KNOW WHAT YOU WANT AND KNOW YOUR BUDGET
3. BACKEND PRODUCTS, ARE THEY WORTH IT?
4. TO TRADE OR NOT TO TRADE
PART 1- KNOW YOUR CREDIT
The largest portion of a car deal that drives up a monthly payment and the total of the car’s cost is the APR. You can make the best deal in the world, below invoice even, but if you don’t know your credit, and they write your APR up, you have just significantly increased the vehicle’s cost. It is important that you know your credit and know your FICO scores so that you understand what you can qualify for. I will list a breakdown of how most banks score you based on your FICO, but understand that it is a generalization and your entire credit bureaus would have to be analyzed to determine your actual risk.
550 and below- Good luck getting approved anywhere, state max APR’s will be used (For arguments sake Texas on a new car is 18%)
550-620- Considered the bottom end of the sub-prime market and you too will pay state max APR’s down to about 15%.
620-670- Middle of the sub-prime market and rates will be anywhere from 10%-15%
670-720 Upper sub prime to prime. You can get anywhere from 6%-12%. Occasionally if the banks are “buying deep”, they will lower their standards for the special APR offers.
720-750 Prime, you will qualify for all the special rates that manufacturers offer such as the 1.9% on 2003 Civics from American Honda.
750 and above- Considered Super Prime and pretty much guaranteed to be below 5%,
Regardless of the credit score, the dealer can write your APR higher than what you were approved for . I will show you an example of how you can get screwed. Let’s say you got a 2004 Civic EX coupe at invoice for $17000, and for argument’s sake, that is how much you finance. Let’s say you have decent credit (and the bank approves you for 6% APR). At the same time, the bank also allows the dealer to write the APR up 5pts for some additional profit for both parties.
Written at 6% for 60 months, the monthly payment is $328 and the total of payments is $19720.
Written at 11% for 60 months, the monthly payment is $370 and the total of payments is $22178.
Yeah, the monthly payment is not that big of a deal but $2453 is how much more you’ve paid for the car at the end of the loan.
After seeing so many misconceptions float around the forum, I thought I’d offer up my experience as a person on the other side. I have been in the auto industry my entire career, from a Finance Manager, Sales Manager, and now an Underwriter. I know the dealerships point of view, the bank’s, and even the customers, so I understand the business inside and out. I will begin with what to do by showing you what to know before you go to the dealership. Remember, an educated consumer is dangerous, but don’t go in acting like you know everything because you read it on the forum. Over the next week, I will be adding a section per day (work allowing).
OUTLINE:
1. KNOW YOUR CREDIT
2. KNOW WHAT YOU WANT AND KNOW YOUR BUDGET
3. BACKEND PRODUCTS, ARE THEY WORTH IT?
4. TO TRADE OR NOT TO TRADE
PART 1- KNOW YOUR CREDIT
The largest portion of a car deal that drives up a monthly payment and the total of the car’s cost is the APR. You can make the best deal in the world, below invoice even, but if you don’t know your credit, and they write your APR up, you have just significantly increased the vehicle’s cost. It is important that you know your credit and know your FICO scores so that you understand what you can qualify for. I will list a breakdown of how most banks score you based on your FICO, but understand that it is a generalization and your entire credit bureaus would have to be analyzed to determine your actual risk.
550 and below- Good luck getting approved anywhere, state max APR’s will be used (For arguments sake Texas on a new car is 18%)
550-620- Considered the bottom end of the sub-prime market and you too will pay state max APR’s down to about 15%.
620-670- Middle of the sub-prime market and rates will be anywhere from 10%-15%
670-720 Upper sub prime to prime. You can get anywhere from 6%-12%. Occasionally if the banks are “buying deep”, they will lower their standards for the special APR offers.
720-750 Prime, you will qualify for all the special rates that manufacturers offer such as the 1.9% on 2003 Civics from American Honda.
750 and above- Considered Super Prime and pretty much guaranteed to be below 5%,
Regardless of the credit score, the dealer can write your APR higher than what you were approved for . I will show you an example of how you can get screwed. Let’s say you got a 2004 Civic EX coupe at invoice for $17000, and for argument’s sake, that is how much you finance. Let’s say you have decent credit (and the bank approves you for 6% APR). At the same time, the bank also allows the dealer to write the APR up 5pts for some additional profit for both parties.
Written at 6% for 60 months, the monthly payment is $328 and the total of payments is $19720.
Written at 11% for 60 months, the monthly payment is $370 and the total of payments is $22178.
Yeah, the monthly payment is not that big of a deal but $2453 is how much more you’ve paid for the car at the end of the loan.
Last edited by 4Saris; 12-05-2003 at 08:47 PM.
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Rep Power: 0 PART 2 -KNOW WHAT YOU WANT AND KNOW YOUR BUDGET.
Don’t go into a dealership undecided on what you want, or this opens you up to a trick called the bait and switch. For example, if you are going a Honda dealership, know if you are looking for a Civic, Pilot, Accord, etc. I have seen people come into dealerships for small economical cars and walk out with full size SUV’s because the salesman worked them. Also, it is a good idea to know how much you can afford for the monthly payment and how much you are going to put down. Generally, it is best to only assume 15% or less of your gross monthly income. For Example, if you make $3000 month, you should consider a $450 per month payment to be your absolute max. This brings me to my next point……..DON’T TELL THE SALESPERSON HOW MUCH YOU CAN AFFORD A MONTH OR HOW MUCH YOU ACTUALLY HAVE DOWN. The best thing to do is talk sales price on the vehicle, never payment. Sales people lick their chops when people tell them how much they can pay a month and how much they have down. The haggling that takes place regarding payment always includes some extra money for the finance guys to add their back end products, so you need to tell them you want to pay a price, not a payment. Regarding the down payment, generally tell them a small amount down like $0 or $500, then unload you real down payment after you already have an offer from them on the table. Always keep an ace in the hole, believe me, they do.
Don’t go into a dealership undecided on what you want, or this opens you up to a trick called the bait and switch. For example, if you are going a Honda dealership, know if you are looking for a Civic, Pilot, Accord, etc. I have seen people come into dealerships for small economical cars and walk out with full size SUV’s because the salesman worked them. Also, it is a good idea to know how much you can afford for the monthly payment and how much you are going to put down. Generally, it is best to only assume 15% or less of your gross monthly income. For Example, if you make $3000 month, you should consider a $450 per month payment to be your absolute max. This brings me to my next point……..DON’T TELL THE SALESPERSON HOW MUCH YOU CAN AFFORD A MONTH OR HOW MUCH YOU ACTUALLY HAVE DOWN. The best thing to do is talk sales price on the vehicle, never payment. Sales people lick their chops when people tell them how much they can pay a month and how much they have down. The haggling that takes place regarding payment always includes some extra money for the finance guys to add their back end products, so you need to tell them you want to pay a price, not a payment. Regarding the down payment, generally tell them a small amount down like $0 or $500, then unload you real down payment after you already have an offer from them on the table. Always keep an ace in the hole, believe me, they do.
Last edited by 4Saris; 11-13-2003 at 10:59 PM.
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Rep Power: 0 PART 3- BACK END PRODUCTS, ARE THEY WORTH IT?
The following are backend products and what their purpose is. If you don’t see the backend product on here, it is probably not anything you should consider. Backend products increase a dealer’s profitability almost by double of what they make on the sale of a car, so carefully consider anything other than the car that you buy.
SERVICE CONTRACT OR WARRANTY
Description- Allows you to have protection if the car breaks down, but their will be a deductible.
Price: $500-$2000
Yes or No?- Usually never needed on a new car because you have a factory warranty giving you a minimum of 36 mos/36k miles. If you want a longer one, wait until your factory warranty expires. It’s a federal law that you are allowed to purchase one from a dealership before the original one expires, no need to finance it. Also, there are independent companies that send you solicitations around the 3 year mark via direct mail.
Refundable from Bank or Company- Yes, generally you can receive a value from the bank or warranty company. Some are even transferable with the car when it is traded. Never believe that a bank “requires” a service contract to be sold to the customer.
GAP OR DEFICIENCY PROTECTION
Description- If the car is ever a total loss, this pays for the difference of the value deemed by the insurance and what you owe to the bank.
Price- $100-500
Yes or No?- If you have a car that generally does not hold its value (Kia, Mitsubishi, Daewoo, most domestic cars that are not sports cars) or your credit is not that great, GAP is a good idea. Deficiencies in the first year can be in excess of $6000 on some cars and the extra $200 can save you thousands.
Refundable from Bank or Company- Yes, generally you can receive a value from the bank or GAP company.
CREDIT LIFE OR DISIABILITY
Description- If at any time you die (LIFE) or are injured (DISABILITY), you will receive a payment from the insurance company to help pay for the car and your injury
Price- I’ve seen people pay from $150 all the way up to $4000.
Yes or No?- NO! These products are actually used at a low %. This is a good way to get upside down in a car or increase the dealerships profit exponentially. If you insist on this product, go to your local State Farm or Allstate agent and they will generally sell the same thing to you for 1/3 of the price.
Refundable from Bank or Company- Yes, generally you can receive a value from the bank or insurance company.
TIRE WARRANTY, PAINT PROTECTION, SCOTCH GUARDING, VIN ETCHING
Description- These are pretty self descriptive.
Price-$50 to however much they get someone for
Yes or No?- No. All of the products above are not generally considered to be valuable backend products and require the dealer to add these in as part of the sales price. Tire warranties sometimes cost more than a replacement set of tires. Paint protection and Scotch Guarding is generally done at the factories. Cars sold with those two items most of the time have nothing more than the rest of the cars on the lot. The consumer can do VIN etching, there are websites that sell it for $10. It doesn’t add any value, most cars already have the VIN all over the car.
Refundable from Bank or Company- Not Likely and you don’t receive any credit from it when trading or selling.
The following are backend products and what their purpose is. If you don’t see the backend product on here, it is probably not anything you should consider. Backend products increase a dealer’s profitability almost by double of what they make on the sale of a car, so carefully consider anything other than the car that you buy.
SERVICE CONTRACT OR WARRANTY
Description- Allows you to have protection if the car breaks down, but their will be a deductible.
Price: $500-$2000
Yes or No?- Usually never needed on a new car because you have a factory warranty giving you a minimum of 36 mos/36k miles. If you want a longer one, wait until your factory warranty expires. It’s a federal law that you are allowed to purchase one from a dealership before the original one expires, no need to finance it. Also, there are independent companies that send you solicitations around the 3 year mark via direct mail.
Refundable from Bank or Company- Yes, generally you can receive a value from the bank or warranty company. Some are even transferable with the car when it is traded. Never believe that a bank “requires” a service contract to be sold to the customer.
GAP OR DEFICIENCY PROTECTION
Description- If the car is ever a total loss, this pays for the difference of the value deemed by the insurance and what you owe to the bank.
Price- $100-500
Yes or No?- If you have a car that generally does not hold its value (Kia, Mitsubishi, Daewoo, most domestic cars that are not sports cars) or your credit is not that great, GAP is a good idea. Deficiencies in the first year can be in excess of $6000 on some cars and the extra $200 can save you thousands.
Refundable from Bank or Company- Yes, generally you can receive a value from the bank or GAP company.
CREDIT LIFE OR DISIABILITY
Description- If at any time you die (LIFE) or are injured (DISABILITY), you will receive a payment from the insurance company to help pay for the car and your injury
Price- I’ve seen people pay from $150 all the way up to $4000.
Yes or No?- NO! These products are actually used at a low %. This is a good way to get upside down in a car or increase the dealerships profit exponentially. If you insist on this product, go to your local State Farm or Allstate agent and they will generally sell the same thing to you for 1/3 of the price.
Refundable from Bank or Company- Yes, generally you can receive a value from the bank or insurance company.
TIRE WARRANTY, PAINT PROTECTION, SCOTCH GUARDING, VIN ETCHING
Description- These are pretty self descriptive.
Price-$50 to however much they get someone for
Yes or No?- No. All of the products above are not generally considered to be valuable backend products and require the dealer to add these in as part of the sales price. Tire warranties sometimes cost more than a replacement set of tires. Paint protection and Scotch Guarding is generally done at the factories. Cars sold with those two items most of the time have nothing more than the rest of the cars on the lot. The consumer can do VIN etching, there are websites that sell it for $10. It doesn’t add any value, most cars already have the VIN all over the car.
Refundable from Bank or Company- Not Likely and you don’t receive any credit from it when trading or selling.
Last edited by 4Saris; 11-14-2003 at 12:37 AM.
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Rep Power: 0 "Yes or No?- Usually never needed on a new car because you have a factory warranty giving you a minimum of 36 mos/36k miles. If you want a longer one, wait until your factory warranty expires. It’s a federal law that you are allowed to purchase one from a dealership before the original one expires, no need to finance it. Also, there are independent companies that send you solicitations around the 3 year mark via direct mail."
Does that apply on a used car as well? My friend wants to add years to his warranty on his 99 prelude but they said they can't because only the original owner of the car can add to the warranty?
Does that apply on a used car as well? My friend wants to add years to his warranty on his 99 prelude but they said they can't because only the original owner of the car can add to the warranty?
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Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by XxJDMCivicxX
Does that apply on a used car as well? My friend wants to add years to his warranty on his 99 prelude but they said they can't because only the original owner of the car can add to the warranty?
Does that apply on a used car as well? My friend wants to add years to his warranty on his 99 prelude but they said they can't because only the original owner of the car can add to the warranty?
If the car is still covered under the original manufacturer warranty, the dealer should still honor it and a be able to sell you a warranty. Factory Warranties are transferrable. Try speaking to an F&I guy directly, maybe even call the dealer and ask for a "Finance Manager". If not, AAA is starting to sell them and even local insurance agents are. He will find someone local. I'll dig in my pile and see if I can find #'s to the companies.
Last edited by 4Saris; 11-14-2003 at 05:28 PM.
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Rep Power: 0 Go directly to the bureau agencies:
www.experian.com
www.equifax.com
www.transunion.com
The reason I say this is because if the request is originated by the customer, the score is generally not affected. Just don't do it too often, I do it about every 6 months. Make sure you request the ones with FICO's. I believe that Experian will give you a trimerge report for somewhere around $35-$50. Their are some on the net that are free but don't give FICO's. As for lowering your score, I wouldn't worry about one inquiry, it would be 5 pts at the most and won't generally affect your average.
Other websites.
www.myfico.com
www.freecreditreport.com
www.experian.com
www.equifax.com
www.transunion.com
The reason I say this is because if the request is originated by the customer, the score is generally not affected. Just don't do it too often, I do it about every 6 months. Make sure you request the ones with FICO's. I believe that Experian will give you a trimerge report for somewhere around $35-$50. Their are some on the net that are free but don't give FICO's. As for lowering your score, I wouldn't worry about one inquiry, it would be 5 pts at the most and won't generally affect your average.
Other websites.
www.myfico.com
www.freecreditreport.com
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Rep Power: 0 PART IV WILL BE - TO TRADE OR NOT TO TRADE?
I will post it tonight when I get home, I have to go fix my bike right now.
For my part V: Can anyone help me in how to post an excel attachment for an estimated payment calculator?
I will post it tonight when I get home, I have to go fix my bike right now.
For my part V: Can anyone help me in how to post an excel attachment for an estimated payment calculator?
Last edited by 4Saris; 11-14-2003 at 05:33 PM.
#11
Originally posted by 4Saris
Go directly to the bureau agencies:
www.experian.com
www.equifax.com
www.transunion.com
The reason I say this is because if the request is originated by the customer, the score is generally not affected. Just don't do it too often, I do it about every 6 months. Make sure you request the ones with FICO's. I believe that Experian will give you a trimerge report for somewhere around $35-$50. Their are some on the net that are free but don't give FICO's. As for lowering your score, I wouldn't worry about one inquiry, it would be 5 pts at the most and won't generally affect your average.
Other websites.
www.myfico.com
www.freecreditreport.com
Go directly to the bureau agencies:
www.experian.com
www.equifax.com
www.transunion.com
The reason I say this is because if the request is originated by the customer, the score is generally not affected. Just don't do it too often, I do it about every 6 months. Make sure you request the ones with FICO's. I believe that Experian will give you a trimerge report for somewhere around $35-$50. Their are some on the net that are free but don't give FICO's. As for lowering your score, I wouldn't worry about one inquiry, it would be 5 pts at the most and won't generally affect your average.
Other websites.
www.myfico.com
www.freecreditreport.com
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PART 4- TO TRADE OR NOT TO TRADE
We all have cars right now and most cannot afford to keep the car and purchase a new one. This brings us to the trading in of a car. Quite often, the vehicle that you are considering trading may even limit you from even getting a new car. There are 2 main questions when considering your trade in.
WHAT IS MY CAR WORTH?
Most dealerships make more money off of selling used cars than new ones, and that’s for a good reason. People walk into the dealership not actually knowing what kind of value their trade vehicle has and buyers follow close behind not knowing what the used car they are buying is worth. Gross profit on these types of deals average about $3000 due to them sticking it to the consumers on the front end and back end.
There are 3 books that offer valuation that most dealers use, they are Kelley Blue Book, NADA, and Black Book. The joke of it is that most often they valuate the trade with Black Book because it has the auction wholesale prices (lowest price), and then turn around and sell it at the value of one of the other two for retail (highest prices). So, what is the best resource? My suggestion is to valuate your car with the two that will be to your benefit, KBB and NADA, and shoot for the higher of the two. They are available online, but the valuations do not match up what is in the actual books. You can find the two in most bookstores like Barnes & Noble. You use wholesale value you for KBB and trade for NADA (also called left-hand side). If you can not access them then do the same with the websites and be as tough on the values as you are with the sales price.
Additional Tips: Just like the sales price of the car, the value of your trade is negotiable and they will attempt to keep it on the low side at first. Always make sure that after you settle on a offer for your trade, you verify that the sales price has not gone up. It is a common practice for dealers to overvaluate the trade and put the negative equity back into the sales price.
DO I TRADE IT OR SELL IT?
If you sell your car privately, rather than trading it in, you will usually get more money for it. This can be decieving though because of the tax break that you receive for trading it. You must always consider that the dealer given value of your trade will increase by the percent of your local tax. Here’s an example below:
Selling Privately for $15000 and the dealership is offering you $14200.
Orange County- Tax Rate is 7.75% (thanks a lot Gov. Davis)
Should you sell or trade?
$15000 is all you will receive in selling it privately. However, if you are trading, you add in the tax for the value of the car, so $14200 x 7.75%= $1100.50. Including the tax savings, your trade will be worth $15300. So although it initially sounds like it would have been better to sell it because of the quotes, you are actually better of trading on this example.
Additional Tips: If you can’t get the money you want for your trade and you can’t sell it privately, try Carmax or another independent lot. They will pay top dollar if your car is in good shape. There were many times our guys would be $1500 short on their offers, so we’d send them there. They give you an offer sheet for 3 days and it might earn you some bargaining power with the dealership that you are buying your car with.
Know your payoff. Most lenders have 24 hour automated systems that will give you your payoff. This is good to know so that you can see if you are adding any negative equity to the deal. For people who have flawed credit or paid too much for their trade, you will be “upside down” a lot more than most. My personal feeling is that you are creating a snowball of negative equity when you continue to do this with each car you purchase. You either have to come to the table with a big chunk of change, cover it with a rebate, or you wait until your car is worth your payoff.
We all have cars right now and most cannot afford to keep the car and purchase a new one. This brings us to the trading in of a car. Quite often, the vehicle that you are considering trading may even limit you from even getting a new car. There are 2 main questions when considering your trade in.
WHAT IS MY CAR WORTH?
Most dealerships make more money off of selling used cars than new ones, and that’s for a good reason. People walk into the dealership not actually knowing what kind of value their trade vehicle has and buyers follow close behind not knowing what the used car they are buying is worth. Gross profit on these types of deals average about $3000 due to them sticking it to the consumers on the front end and back end.
There are 3 books that offer valuation that most dealers use, they are Kelley Blue Book, NADA, and Black Book. The joke of it is that most often they valuate the trade with Black Book because it has the auction wholesale prices (lowest price), and then turn around and sell it at the value of one of the other two for retail (highest prices). So, what is the best resource? My suggestion is to valuate your car with the two that will be to your benefit, KBB and NADA, and shoot for the higher of the two. They are available online, but the valuations do not match up what is in the actual books. You can find the two in most bookstores like Barnes & Noble. You use wholesale value you for KBB and trade for NADA (also called left-hand side). If you can not access them then do the same with the websites and be as tough on the values as you are with the sales price.
Additional Tips: Just like the sales price of the car, the value of your trade is negotiable and they will attempt to keep it on the low side at first. Always make sure that after you settle on a offer for your trade, you verify that the sales price has not gone up. It is a common practice for dealers to overvaluate the trade and put the negative equity back into the sales price.
DO I TRADE IT OR SELL IT?
If you sell your car privately, rather than trading it in, you will usually get more money for it. This can be decieving though because of the tax break that you receive for trading it. You must always consider that the dealer given value of your trade will increase by the percent of your local tax. Here’s an example below:
Selling Privately for $15000 and the dealership is offering you $14200.
Orange County- Tax Rate is 7.75% (thanks a lot Gov. Davis)
Should you sell or trade?
$15000 is all you will receive in selling it privately. However, if you are trading, you add in the tax for the value of the car, so $14200 x 7.75%= $1100.50. Including the tax savings, your trade will be worth $15300. So although it initially sounds like it would have been better to sell it because of the quotes, you are actually better of trading on this example.
Additional Tips: If you can’t get the money you want for your trade and you can’t sell it privately, try Carmax or another independent lot. They will pay top dollar if your car is in good shape. There were many times our guys would be $1500 short on their offers, so we’d send them there. They give you an offer sheet for 3 days and it might earn you some bargaining power with the dealership that you are buying your car with.
Know your payoff. Most lenders have 24 hour automated systems that will give you your payoff. This is good to know so that you can see if you are adding any negative equity to the deal. For people who have flawed credit or paid too much for their trade, you will be “upside down” a lot more than most. My personal feeling is that you are creating a snowball of negative equity when you continue to do this with each car you purchase. You either have to come to the table with a big chunk of change, cover it with a rebate, or you wait until your car is worth your payoff.
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Rep Power: 0 This is all really good information, I would like to reccomend a website as well, www.carbuyingtips.com LOTS of good information there.
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Rep Power: 0 Yep, that is a good site. I just read the following link, and he deadon on these:
http://www.carbuyingtips.com/scams.htm
http://www.carbuyingtips.com/scams.htm
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Rep Power: 325 Thx man...I'm of a very tough character so I don't let dealers get one up on me. I walked in and only paid 300 above what I wanted to pay for the car, which was 100 over invoice. All in all I ended up with a good deal paying $750 or so under MSRP with no fees or anything added into the sale. The only reason I agreed to it and didn't walk away (when normally I would've) was because although I had driven to the dealer in my car I knew it wouldn't make it back home. They gave me $1000 for my '88 RX-7 that had a trade in value of $1100 at the time. I had only paid $2000 for it 3.5 years earlier and had logged over 60k miles so I figured I got a good deal.
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Rep Power: 0 4Saris, i recently went to a honda dealer here in jersey, to get information on what i needed about buying my first car. a couple months ago i bought my credit report for the first time off experian.com, and paid off the two items that were on there that i didnt even know about. because of this my credit score was / is low (598 if i remember correctly), and the dealer told me that my credit score wouldnt be a problem as long as i came with a decent down payment. i broke your rules about telling them how much i can afford, and how much i want to put down... as i told him both.
but my point, or question rather... does my bad credit really not mean anything? or was he misleading? i was looking into a 2003 civic, at the time.
but my point, or question rather... does my bad credit really not mean anything? or was he misleading? i was looking into a 2003 civic, at the time.
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Rep Power: 0 a month or two after i bought my car, i decided to get an alarm. so i went down and decided to get it. my salesguy tried to rip me off and sell it for $400 when i got it for $250 through the finance manager. i mentioned that i wanted a factory honda alarm and that's what i thought i was getting, not till afterwards i get my keys and it's an aftermarket one (not to say aftermarket alarms aren't as good). and i'm like... i told him i wanted the honda alarm specifically, and after me and my sister raised hell and commotion and said how dishonest they were, i got in writing a lifetime warranty on the aftermarket alarm (honda alarms/parts are good for only one year/12,000 miles). so it goes to show you to raise hell and get things in writing so they can't say elsewise. if anything goes wrong with it, guess who's fixing it.. that's right, honda.
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