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Mechanical Problems/Vehicle Issues and Fix-it ForumIf you've got a problem you just can't figure out, a noise you can't diagnose, or a Check Engine Light that won't go away, ask about it here!
One thing that bugs me though is, Why does it do the RPM fluctuation thing only on cold start and then goes away slowly on its own? and why, after it starts for the first time and gets out of the "dead state" it will start acting normal and starting up no problem until next episode? Almost as if the issue goes away with temperature but, how can temperature affect electronics inisde the distribuitor for the better? Something doesn't add up. Only thing I can think of is that there is a somewhat loose connection somewhere that, when temperature rises, it expands and becommes tight. Or maybe moisture builds up somewhere and it evaporates with temperature... I honestly don't know.
One thing that bugs me though is, Why does it do the RPM fluctuation thing only on cold start and then goes away slowly on its own?
Likely the FITV and/or IACV. These both control idle until engine is near or at operating temp. Common issue with these old engines and is basically routine maintenance to remove them and clean them along with the throttle body. Their gaskets could possibly be worn an leaking vacuum.
Originally Posted by DeathCoreBoy1
why, after it starts for the first time and gets out of the "dead state" it will start acting normal and starting up no problem until next episode? Almost as if the issue goes away with temperature but, how can temperature affect electronics inisde the distribuitor for the better?
Intermittent issue. Parts can weaken without completely failing and cause intermittent issues.
Being affected by temperature also points to the coil and/or igniter.
Originally Posted by DeathCoreBoy1
doesn't add up. Only thing I can think of is that there is a somewhat loose connection somewhere that, when temperature rises, it expands and becommes tight. Or maybe moisture builds up somewhere and it evaporates with temperature... I honestly don't know.
Use DeOxit or even rubbing alcohol and a toothbrush to clean connectors and their connection points. Look for breaks or damage to wiring inside the distributor.
The thing is not starting again, which is kinda good because I can troubleshoot and diagnose again.
I perfomed this test:
-Resistance between terminals A and B is fine. About 0.9 ohms (It was a very hot day) -There is no resistance between Terminal A and Secondary Winding Terminal. I tried measuring just continuity but there is none. I guess this confirms that at least coil is bad.
I'm scanning the web trying to find a compatible coil to purchase it. Do you happen to know what's the part number for it? Engine is D16Z6 and distribuitor has the following numbers on it: TD-42U 2907
I tired testing the sensors using this method but weirdly enough, they all returned 0 resistance or open circuit. Not sure if this is applicable or if this is even a valid test.
Edit: Looks like I had my ohmmeter set to 200 when it should have been set to 20K so, except for the first test (between terminal A and B) all others are invalid. I will have to go again tomorrow and repeat...
Last edited by DeathCoreBoy1; 01-31-2023 at 08:00 PM.
That ohms test isn't reliable. The spark/arc test is the real proof. When the spark/arc test is done with a long handle screwdriver a failing/weak coil will often fail completely and a sure sign it was an issue.
The thing almost started up with 3 cylinders only!! So I thought I should test if it is in running condition, and guess what... it started right up. No RPM fluctuation, nothing. The thing just ran. So now I need to wait for god knows how long until it decides to go dead on me again in the worst possible moment . I guess the test is invalid because I don't know if it started up cause this time around there was spark, just magically, or if there is another condition that randomply disapeared today and allowed it to start, like so many other times before.
So, up until yesterday, the car wouldn't start no matter what I do. I dissasemblied the distribuitor to test resistance, etc. It wouldn't start.
Today I went there and tested spark on coil output. See for yourself: So, I figured I should test spark on cylinder 1
Good job taking the initiative to test the coil. Spark looks weak and it should be bright white (not orange-ish), but unfortunately it was a suboptimal test. Optimally you want to test the spark/arc to ground up to an inch away from the coil first and slowly bring the ground source closer to see how far it can arc (spark quality). As I mentioned before a weak coil will often completely fail if it's forced to arc, but I should have mentioned in prior responses to start the ground source and inch away first. Instead of that ground wire that you used a larger source of ground such as long handle screwdriver to ground would make for a better test. Also, best to fully charge your battery before re-testing the coil.
Do you have battery jumper cables? If you do then use one side of the cable only. One clamp goes to ground and the other clamp holds the screwdriver shaft. That way you're not holding the screwdriver (no risk of shock), only holding the rubber protected jumper cable clamp. Have helper start crank the engine while you start with the screwdriver tip an inch away. If no arc/spark then slowly bring the tip closer to the coil. Note the distance and brightness of the arc/spark when it first happens and keep the screw driver tip steady at that spot. Keep cranking the engine for about 20 seconds straight and see if it strains the coil to failure. If it passes that test then the coil is most likely not the issue.
Originally Posted by DeathCoreBoy1
The thing almost started up with 3 cylinders only!! So I thought I should test if it is in running condition, and guess what... it started right up. No RPM fluctuation, nothing. The thing just ran. So now I need to wait for god knows how long until it decides to go dead on me again in the worst possible moment . I guess the test is invalid because I don't know if it started up cause this time around there was spark, just magically, or if there is another condition that randomply disapeared today and allowed it to start, like so many other times before. I guess I'll see you in a few days.
Test as a I stated above. Did you have a test light to test the igniter? Also, watch the Eric TCG video again starting at the 5 minute mark. Notice the "good" spark is much brighter and thicker compared to your coil's spark.
Last edited by Wankenstein; 02-01-2023 at 10:32 PM.
@Wankenstein Hey man, thank you for sticking around. I appreciate it. I'll then re-do the test as soon as it fails to start again but this time around I will make sure the distance is about 1 inch. I don't have a long screwdriver but I guess I'll try to find a larger metal thing that I can use to touch ground then make sure I'm not tounching it while cranking. I do not have battery jumper cables either. Like I said, I'm really new with this whole car thing. Should I buy them? Not sure how expensive they are.
The spark on video looks white-blueish to me. It was certainly not orange when I saw it in person. I still have not been able to get a testlight cause I work long hours but this weekend I will go to a few places and will try to get one finally.
Today I tested the coil at about one inch. I couldn't find a better ground source so I reused the cable. It looks like it works. The car was not starting at the time I ran this test and it didn't start after I put the distribuitor back togeter.
After a few attempts I cranked it and pushed a bit on the gas and the thing made a puuuff sound followed by 4-5 ignition sounds but, out of sync until it stopped and lights on dash came back on. a secon later, I saw white smoke coming out of the intake filter area. Not a lot but enough for me to see it from inside the car. After that, I cranked it again and it started up while fluctuating the RPM needle for a few seconds.
Could it be timing? I mean, could it be that the overall engine timing is slightly off? I mean, not only distribuitor timing but the rest of the sync as well. One symptom that it has and I can't remember if I already mentioned it is that the thing lacks power when below 2000RPM. It just won't care how much I push the gas. It will speed up very slowly until it hits 2000RPM and suddenly it's like if I pushed on the red NOS button from fast and furious.
Have an appontment with a reputable Honda Workshop for the 28th of this month. I hope the car will start on this date, so that I can drive it there
Will report back, hopefully with solution.
@Wankenstein Hey! Sorry for the late reply. Seems like I did not get the email notification for the last two posts.
I got my Hondash little thing on Thursday and got to play with it for the first time today and I got some interesting data. Man, gotta love this little scanner. Nice to take a peek at what the computer is seeing and doing.
Now, for context, I have to clarify that I had to remove the battery prior to using the tool because it had died out, since I spend more time cranking the engine that actually using the car. I took it to a shop and had it charged this morning. This means that all values will start at 0 and computer will go thorugh learning mode again.
So, first and most obvious thing I see in the logs is that the short and long term fuel trims are reporting high due to O2 sensor reporting lean condition. They kept consistently rising thoughout the day with the LTFT peaking at +14 and STFT peaking above +20s. This is concerning but I'm not sure if this is related to what causes the no-start condition.
The O2 sensor seems to be responding fine although I see it is a bit erratic. It only stabilizes the oscilation if I go at a constant RPM. Which it is what I would expect, given my understanding of it but I lack experience to tell.
On the other hand it is weird that the RPM count at iddle seems normal (650-700) in the app yet the actual dash shows the niddle very close to 0. I tested by reving the engine in a very controlled manner and comparing the app count with the dash niddle and it seems to match everywhere except in the 0-1000 range. Only explanation I can find is that the small line that is close to 0 in the dash is actually 500. Not sure.
So, based on this I'm left with a couple of ideas:
1- There is a fuel delivery problem and not enough fuel is making it to the engine. Maybe weak pump, which may also cause no start condition. (But if this is the case, why is is accentuated when I leave the car overnight and why would it start fine when the engine is hot).
2- There is a vaccum leak thus unominored air is making its way to the engine. Not sure if this would cause a no start condition but there are a few things that do not add up, like, if there is more air forcing the computer to inject more fuel, I would expect the engine to iddle higher.
3- There is a misterious issue causing incomplete combustion and thus there is more oxigen than should be in the exhaust. Maybe weak spark or low compression. I smelled a bit around the exhaust but there are all kinds of weird smells back there, I can't really tell. Probably my nose needs some training. Again I lack experience to tell.
I believe that the next logical step would be to measure fuel preasure accross different conditions to see if the pump is healthy but I don't have the tool and it is quite expensive around here. Plus I have already finished my budged for tools this month
So this is where I'm at. I'll include a screenshot of the data log from today. This is about 3 hours of driving, mostly in the city. You won't be able to go and look in detail because all data is compressed to like 3 inches of screen real estate but at least you can get a general sense of what happened and how the fuel trims changed. I tried exporting the logs so that you could import and check it yourself (if you have a Hondash) but I was unable to find the file. I need to poke around with it a bit more.
On Feb28 I have the appointment at the "Gente Del Sol" workshop. I'll probably have to wait until then but at least I have some context.
Edit: Also check the Ignition Advance. Watched a few videos on youtube about hondash on civics and their ignition advance was different... I think... lower. I have no clue what this value means tho.
Last edited by DeathCoreBoy1; 02-18-2023 at 08:06 PM.
Even though I owned a Hondash a few years ago I am not good with what all the different readings interpret. At the time I would post my Civic's Hondash results and a forum member would help me with the readings. Sorry for the late reply.. As far as fuel pressure it's best to use a fuel pressure gauge to get an accurate reading. My car has one permanently installed just past the fuel filter, Suspect weak compression do a dry and wet (teaspoon of oil) compression test. Do a smoke test for vacuum leaks.
I did the smoke thing and found none. Tomorrow is my appointment with the workshop. Let's see what comes out of it. I'll let you know for sure.
I've seen so many posts in forums that go for a while and then suddenly OP stops responding... So frustrating. I'm commited to update this until it is resolved so future people can benefit from it.
I did the smoke thing and found none. Tomorrow is my appointment with the workshop. Let's see what comes out of it. I'll let you know for sure.
I've seen so many posts in forums that go for a while and then suddenly OP stops responding... So frustrating. I'm commited to update this until it is resolved so future people can benefit from it.
Yes, the unresolved OP posts are aggravating. All the work you have put into it yourself has narrowed down remaining possibilities for the mechanic. I don't feel like taking the time to read back through all the posts, but was mechanical timing ever verified? compression ever tested?
-Mechanical timing not tested. I don't have the tool to take the spark plugs out.
-Compression not tested either. Don't have the tool to measure compression nor the tool to take sparkplugs out.
-Fuel pressure not tested. Again. I'm missing tools.
These are the main things I'm hoping the mechanic will check tomorrow. If none of those are at fault, then it has to be the sensors inside the distribuitor thowing the spark timing off. That's all I can think of and it matches with the fact that the RPM gauge does this weird thing. I mean, we know that the computer times the spark using the TDC sensor so if it is throwing off incorrect signal, then the spark timing will be wrong... just a guess.
Just had a call from the mechanic asking to go pick the car up... The car has been there for 3 days and it has not done "the thing". Mechanic said he can't check it if it is not happening, which is a problem cause if it is happening, I can't take it to him. I'm praying that when I go pick it up it refuses to start. He didn't even check timing.
I asked him to at least check fuel preasure and he said he borrowed his gauge to someone and he doesn't have it with him. I got so frustrated when he said this that I said I was gonna pick the car up and that's about it. We're back to square one.
BTW, what's up with mechanics? I have never had to deal with such thing with other stuff I needed serviced in the past. It's like every mechanic meet is worse than the previous one.
Funny enough, today when I got to the workshop and tried to turn on the car to take it home, the thing didn't start hahahahahahaha. I was never this happy for it not starting. They had a known working computer and tried it quickly to no avail. So, I left it there. Hopefuly it will refuse to start for long enough so that they can find the issue.
BTW, what's up with mechanics? I have never had to deal with such thing with other stuff I needed serviced in the past. It's like every mechanic meet is worse than the previous one.
I refuse to let others work on my vehicles except for things I cannot do myself, like mounting and balancing wheels or machining work. It only takes a few bad experiences...
Hard to find honest, truly knowledgeable mechanics these days. More incentive to buy tools rather than spend money on them.
I fortunately have one I trust and he is very reasonable. His shop is about 5 minutes drive from my place. He just replaced a transmission pan gasket, filter and atf drain and fill. Also a motor and transmission mounts, and front sway bar end link bushing on a newly acquired 2002 Buick Park Avenue.
I could have done the work, but felt lazy at the time. He does solid work, lets me bring in my own parts and he doesn't bullshit people into work their car doesn't need.
Well, quick update. They said they believe that the ignition coil is the problem so they put a new one on Friday. Picked it up today and will be testing it for the next few days. Hopefully this is it. It would make sense since it's pulses are what generates the signal that is sent to the RPM gauge. I will come back after a few days to confirm whether it is resolved or not.
Back to drawing board. The car had a hard time starting today. When it started, after like 5 seconds of cranking, I took it for a spin and performed a test that I had not done before.
So, when on 1500RPM and hard on acceleration (about 50% gas) the car bogs down and sputters, then eventually catch up and starts going fast at around 3000RPM. I had noticed the lack of power on low RPM but I had not pushed on it hard enough to be able to see this symptom. I'm really hesitant to take it back to the shop, even though they said I could take it back if the issue reappeared since all they did was to change the ignition coil with no proof that it was actually at fault. If you think about it, I could have done this myself. They had as much proof as I had to think that the ignition coil was bad. They don't have a fuel preasure gauge... so I can't expect them to have it measured. I really don't know what to do. I'm poundering to order a new fuel pump and put it in there, since that's what they are going to do anyway...
You already proved that the coil is in good shape. It passed the spark/arc test. The mechanic is just guessing and didn't even take the steps you took to determine spark quality. Aftermarket coils suck for these engines so make sure they installed a Honda Genuine (OEM) part, which I believe TEC brand is for these engines. I would ask for your money back and the old part to be reinstalled.
Sorry you're going through this situation. Did they check mechanical timing? Measure resistance on the crank and/or cam sensor?
@Wankenstein Thanks man. It really sucks. 31 years saving for my first car and I get this crap 3 months after purchase. I'm determined to fix it tho. Not sure if I will keep it after all this but I will definetly fix it at some point.
They did not check mechanical timing nor sensor resistance. I did measure all distribuitor sensors resistance and they are all OK. I checked everywhere and couldn't find the Crankshaft position sensor. Aparently this engine gets all info from the sensors inside the distribuitor.
Today I replaced the fuel pump with a brand new Bosch pump and honestly, it is not behaving any different. It still lacks power and sputters if I floor it. I'm pretty sure it will not start tomorrow morning. I'd like to check timing but I don't have the tools. I'll take it to the shop on monday again and hell, they are going to listen to an angry cuban... I'll print out the timing alignment from the service manual for this engine and have them check that it is properly timed while I watch. This time around I won't let them go with "We got this, we'll call you when it's ready". Hell no. I'll stay and watch... Otherwise, no business. I doubth they have a timing light though, so that part will suck.
Thanks for sticking around after all this time. It may seem that I'm being a jerk but I'm a bit tired of jumping from one mechanic to the next and having my money burned on a hunch, without proper diagnosis. I'll keep you posted.
Edit: Also, it did the RPM fluctuation thing while I had the scanner connected. It's the first time it happens while the scanner is connected and funny enough, the scanner doesn't follow the niddle on the dash. The scanner shows what the engine is actually doing. If it werent because of the fact that the engine kinda sputters and sometimes dies while doing this, I'd think it's just an issue with the electrical connections on the dash or the wire that carries this infor to the dash. But the fact that the engine changes behavior while this is happening tells me that there is more to it.
Edit: Also, it did the RPM fluctuation thing while I had the scanner connected. It's the first time it happens while the scanner is connected and funny enough, the scanner doesn't follow the niddle on the dash. The scanner shows what the engine is actually doing. If it werent because of the fact that the engine kinda sputters and sometimes dies while doing this, I'd think it's just an issue with the electrical connections on the dash or the wire that carries this infor to the dash. But the fact that the engine changes behavior while this is happening tells me that there is more to it.
hunh
do you know anyone else that have a car the same gen as yours? (yeah, hard to find them in south america...)
if so, borrow the ECU from it and test
cuban in Argentine? You might been having slight difficult in verbal communication (and some words)
01-29-2023
. I guess the test is invalid because I don't know if it started up cause this time around there was spark, just magically, or if there is another condition that randomply disapeared today and allowed it to start, like so many other times before.
, Had a hard time getting used to it, but it's been long enough.
