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Mechanical Problems/Vehicle Issues and Fix-it ForumIf you've got a problem you just can't figure out, a noise you can't diagnose, or a Check Engine Light that won't go away, ask about it here!
So, it is a 1993 Civic EX Coupe, around 84000 miles on it. Engine is a D16Z6, manual transmission. I bought it like 4 months ago and it was running perfectly fine at the time. The previous owner said he rarely used it. Gas tank was completely empty.
When I bought it, it was leaking a little bit of oil from the distribuitor/valve cover area. Took it a mechanic and got the oil changed and the distribuitor O-Ring replaced, which -he said- was the cause of the leak (it still leaks, I believe it is the valve cover gasket).
Like a week later, I was on the highway for my first long-ish trip on it. After around 60 miles the RPM gauge started to do something like what's on the video and the engine estarted to -sort of- choke. I could feel the car wating to die. It lasted like 2 minutes and stopped doing it. I drove the rest of the day just fine. Did not happen again for like 3 weeks or so until one day, after not using it for like 3 days, it wouldn't start. It would crank but wouldn't start up. It eventually started by pushing the gas a few times and trying again, etc. So, I took it to another mechanic who checked the distribuitor and a few other things but said everything was fine...
A month later, it is doing it more and more often. Always at startup when it has been sitting for more than 8-10 hours. After it starts, it does that for a while and slowly normalizes, then it runs fairly well. It iddles low (300rpm) but it never dies or stalls and it has never done again it while driving.
Now, when it is doing this, sometimes the engine will start dying or sounding like if it is choking, and some times it will run normally and will just be the niddle doing it's thing.
In the video, I'm giving it gas so that it doesn't die. I had just tarted it in the morning.
Any Ideas? I went to several mechanics and they all gave diferent diagnostics but none wanted to work on it due to (reasons)
Any coolant loss in the radiator or reservoir? Any coolant gain in the reservoir? Did the mechanic do a smoke test to find potential vacuum leaks? This is a read on vacuum leaks which is my strongest guess that is causing your engine's issue https://www.stringerautorepair.com/f...a-vacuum-leak/
Any CEL light codes. 5th gen has an OBD1 ecu and the codes are checked the following way
Did either mechanic take the distributor cap off to inspect for oil inside the distributor? There's an inner seal (not the external o-ring) in the distributor which can leak and cause oil to get inside of it and cause issues.
This is a good video to watch for idle issues. Though your car's engine is experiencing the erratic rpms after reaching operating temperature and under load (not idle). Does it have erratic idle on cold starts up to 15-20 minutes?
@Wankenstein Thanks for chiming in! No coolant loos or gain and no CEL codes.
It has done it once, while on highway (not iddling). All other times it was iddling, though I have not tried to move the car while its doing it. I'd have to test and see if it continues to do it even if I try to drive.
I disconnected the TPS and it still did the same thing, though of course I had to keep it alive and got a check engine light. After reconnecting it, check engine light disappeared.
If you check the video I shared, in the section where I hold it at 3000RPM, you'll see that at that point, the engine is running fine, but it is just the niddle doing its own thing. Now, if it were a vaccum leak, why does it dissapear after the car warms up? Yesterday I cleaned up the ground that goes from battery to chassis but it did not help.
@Wankenstein Thanks for chiming in! No coolant loos or gain and no CEL codes.
It has done it once, while on highway (not iddling). All other times it was iddling, though I have not tried to move the car while its doing it. I'd have to test and see if it continues to do it even if I try to drive.
I disconnected the TPS and it still did the same thing, though of course I had to keep it alive and got a check engine light. After reconnecting it, check engine light disappeared.
If you check the video I shared, in the section where I hold it at 3000RPM, you'll see that at that point, the engine is running fine, but it is just the niddle doing its own thing. Now, if it were a vaccum leak, why does it dissapear after the car warms up? Yesterday I cleaned up the ground that goes from battery to chassis but it did not help.
Clean TB, FITV and IACV.
Do a smoke test for vacuum leaks
All are free of charge and easy to do.
Good routine maintenance.
Air in coolant can cause idle issue. Need to be on an incline or jacks with radiator neck above engine. Climate control on max heat and fan off.
Best to approach the cheap repair possibilities first and then replace parts if needed after testing first.
Cigar smoke test. Remove the air filter hose from the TB. Seal the opening of TB with plastic wrap and rubber bands. Blow smoke from the cigar through the brake booster vacuum hose. Of course, engine not running to test. Invest in tools and do your own work. Harbor Freight tools are cheap and good enough ..just don't opt for the full sets and buy individually. No better car to start wrenching on.
@Wankenstein Thanks man, I will look into those suggestions. I should have probably mentioned that although I'm 30 years old, this is my first car and I've never even driven one before, letalone wrenching on one. So all of this means massive research for me and lots of fear of breaking something instead of fixing it. On this side of the world, buying a car means years of work. Even disconnecting a hose is traumatic for me. Will report back if I make any progress.
Well, if you decide to do your own work there's plenty of write-ups on forums, YouTube's and support here to help you. The service manual is still the go to guide.
One can start slow and tackle easier maintenance and repairs to build their confidence. Patience and thorough research goes a long way along with being hands on to gain experience. Also, if you do take up doing your own repairs please practice safety first always.
If you bring it a mechanic print out our replies and ask him to read them to see if he agrees as a way to proceed.
Last edited by Wankenstein; 01-21-2023 at 04:49 AM.
Yesterday it started up excelent. Drove a few miles and suddenly, while accelerating out of a red light, I felt the car started to "jitter". It felt somewhat as if I was pressing down on the break pedal on and off quickly and hard. I pressed down the clutch and gave it some gas and the issue dissapear, though the rest of the trip it was really sloppy to gain speed. As if it had lost its power. It did it a couple of times more thoughout the trip and I could swear that at one time I heard the front tires lock and drag a few inches on the road on an off with the engine sound. It also blew the dashboard cluster lights fuse. After that, it's been doing the RPM niddle thing non-stop. I parked it and stopped driving it cause I got scared. Today I ran a few tests in the parking spot and found out the following.
1-The engine sound while it is doing the RPM niddle thing, is different. It lacks its usual low end. It sounds "clicky". As if I could hear the valves opening and closing, more than the actual ignition "Boom" from the exhaust.
2- I disconnected the MAP sensor and the iddling became much better. It went up from 250RPM to 1100RPM which is a bit high but at least better than before. It still does the RPM niddle thing but it accelerates and runs better, at least it is my impresison. Soon as I reconnect it, it goes down to 250RPM again.
At this point I'm so confused and overwhelmed that I decided to get an appointment at a Honda's speciffic workshop to have it checked thoroughly. It will cost me an eye probably but I don't have the tools, knoledge or confidence to fix this. I will report back if there are news for future references, in case someone has a similar issue.
But there is no check engine light on. Will it give me error codes anyway?
Yes. Old codes can be stored and CEL light not on. It takes 10 minutes to do and very easy procedure. Follow the video. If you do it that's one step towards knowing your car better and it might lead you to trying other tests.
@Wankestein, So after my last message about that night running rough, I did not use it again until yesterday but, to my surpise, it won't start. I read the codes. It had codes for both sensors that I disconnected only (MAP and TPS). Nothing else. I got a mechanic came to see it and he checked for spark right where distribuitor connects with the cables and he said that although weak, there is spark. He then choked the fuel return hose and after a few cranks, the car started up but died right away. Tried a few more times and it started again. Kept reving it and it stayed alive for like 10 seconds, but as soon as I let the revs go below 2000, it died again. Battery was getting weak and it was night so we had to leave it. The mechanic said that he believe it is a fuel delivery issue. Maybe the pump. He suggested to have someone come with a gauge to measure fuel preasure.
Can also get a good idea of fuel pressure past the fuel rail (injectors) by disconnecting the fuel return line (to tank) from the fuel pressure regulator (FPR). Use a glass jar to catch gas at the FPR outlet as a helper turns the ignition to second position only, Do not try to start the engine, Faulty fuel pumps can be intermittent or still work, but in a weak state of flow/pressure.
The weak spark that the mechanic found is not good, Did he test spark at the ignition coil like shown in the video below? This video also show to check for cracks in the distributor cap as sdaidoji mentioned in his reply. In place of the probe that ETCG uses to check spark at the coil a grounded long handle screwdriver can be used for the spark arc test. I use one side of a jumper cable with one end clamped to ground (strut tower bolt) and the other clamped to the screwdriver shaft. I then hold the rubber insulated grip of the jumper cable that is clamped to the screwdriver shaft during the test. The ignition coil and/or igniter can also be intermittent and can also work when weak, but not properly and presents issues such as your engine has.
Aftermarket ignition coils are mostly junk and generally do not do well with these engines. From the factory your car's engine came with a TEC brand coil which is the Honda genuine OEM (original equipment manufacturer) part.
I checked the distribuitor cap for cracks or weird things, but it seems fine to me. I'll put a picture here cause I may be easily missing something obvious. I'll test fuel today by doing what's on the video and will see if I dare to check at the end of the fuel rail. I need to convince my girlfriend to go help with turing the key on XD. The thing is that the car is sitting on a parking lot building, 3rd floor next a bunch of other cars, like 7 blocks away from home, so it is not the most comfortable way to work on it. I'll also swing by the hardware store today and get a testlight to check the ignition coild and ignitor. Will report back with news soon as I have any. Thanks a lot for the answers, guys.
Oh, and the mechanic checked for spark between the distribuitor cap and the cable. He disconnected one of the cables that go to the sparkplugs and put a screwdriver inside the distribuitor cap, where the cable was, then put the cable end near the screwdriver and checked the spark there. Hope it makes sense. Kind of hard to explain.
I also bought a scanner from this page (https://www.hondash.net) since it seems to be the only one that will give me real time data. I work on IT so I'm confident with using technology and I think it will help a lot if I could know what's going on in the computer and with the sensors by reading its data. But it will take 4-6 weeks to arrive, so this will help with next issue, I guess.
Last edited by DeathCoreBoy1; 01-25-2023 at 07:51 AM.
Just a thought. Could the alarm system has anything to do with this? It has a very annoying alarm system. The way it works is by cutting power when you turn the key to ignition. You can hear the rele cutting the power. It activates itself after 30 seconds if the car doesn't start. It has happened with me inside the car and I have had to open the door, close it, lock it, unlock it, put the key on and turn the car on, otherwise it won´t crank.
Now, the thing lately, if I leave the door open for more than 10 minutes, it will stop responding to the remote control and the only fix is to close the door and wait for some time (about 10 minutes) until it eventually starts responding again. Because of that, I used a small switch that is hidden in the car which is suppossed to activate or deactivate the system. And it has been deactivated all this time. I can still use the controller to lock and unlock the doors but the alarm will not kick off. Problem is that this switch acts pretty randomly and it is not that I can simply flip it and it works. Usually it takes some trial and error until I get it to behave the way I want (enabled or disabled).
However, the alarm symptoms have always been cutting the power to the starter and setting of all lights to blink. It will prevent the car from cranking, hence I did not consider it being involved with current issue, but at this point, I guess I have to give all variables to whoever is helping.
Even though I put towels all around it, the thing squirted fuel all over the place, so I think it is safe to asume that the fuel pump is OK. Imediately cleaned up all I could but most of it evaporated before I had the chance to get to it. I got my eye on the crank and cam sensors. Will start investigating where those are and how to test them.
Even though I put towels all around it, the thing squirted fuel all over the place, so I think it is safe to asume that the fuel pump is OK. Imediately cleaned up all I could but most of it evaporated before I had the chance to get to it. I got my eye on the crank and cam sensors. Will start investigating where those are and how to test them.
Chris "Hey Guys!" Fix..lol, Sounds like you're starting the wrenching bug already? You checked the CEL codes, fuel pressure, observed and remembered how the mechanic checked for spark, and contemplating to buy a spark test probe. Good stuff!.
Fuel pumps can become intermittent and weak in pressure. However, I have owned three 90's Civics and upkeep my mom's "04 Civic and never had a fuel pump issue in any of them. ETCG mentioned in the spark test video that it's a rare issue in Civics. I like to test fuel beyond the fuel rail at the FPR outlet because it proves fuel throughout the rail and no mess when using a jar to capture gas. How you did it is good enough though and it's very likely getting good pressure at the FPR as well. If you want to try it for experience at the FPR outlet it only involves removing one clamp on the fuel return line. This tool (or similar) is very good for removing hose clamps and other items
I checked the distributor cap for cracks or weird things, but it seems fine to me. I'll put a picture here cause I may be easily missing something obvious.
Good pic. I downloaded it and zoomed in and see no issues. Mainly what to check for is cracks, chips or burn marks on the four metal points that receive spark form the rotor and transfers spark to the spark plug wires (cables). How your mechanic checked spark using a screwdriver between the cap and one spark plug wire is one way to check spark. However, the ETCG method is a better way to prove spark quality. Also, instead of just testing one cap location it would have been better to do the method shown in the video below by removing spark plugs one at a time and using the HEI tester. This method proves spark all the way to the plug and to all four wires and plugs. The HEI type tester is (imo) the best tool for testing to spark plugs. Still spark/arc quality needs to be tested at the ICM (ignition coil) to compare with spark plug spark quality.
I also bought a scanner from this page (https://www.hondash.net) since it seems to be the only one that will give me real time data. I work on IT so I'm confident with using technology and I think it will help a lot if I could know what's going on in the computer and with the sensors by reading its data.
The Hondash is great OBD1 scanner, especially for the price. I bought one several years ago and still have it. It worked very well with the prior ECU on my '95 Civic However, I changed out the ECU a couple tears ago and the Hondash no longer works for the new ECU. The Hondash owner/designer Milos Polakovic is very helpful if you need to contact him. (iirc) I had trouble getting the Hondash to read my ECU to get it to connect. I contacted Milos about it and he got it sorted out quickly.
Originally Posted by DeathCoreBoy1
Could the alarm system has anything to do with this?
Not sure if this will help, but you might want to test the main relay PGM-FI https://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/ho...e-main-relay-1 This website has many testing tutorials for Honda and other manufacturers. https://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/ho...-of-articles-1
Vid below symptoms This is a 1999 Honda Accord with an intermittent no start complaint. Other symptoms include: stalling, long crank times, surging, bucking, poor transmission shifting.
Crank position sensor CKF testing https://my.prostreetonline.com/2015/...sition-sensor/ I hope for your sake that this is not the issue. Part is cheap, but labor is pretty intensive. A failed CKP doesn't always throw a CEL code.
@Wankenstein Thanks for the tips and the warning. I'll definetly be extra careful.
So, I watched a video from the Chrodinger's Box that explains really well how the distribuitor assembly works and I now have a much better understanding about it. It is like one hour and a half long but definetly worth watching. Also, by reading through the service manual for my speciffic car, I found this:
Tachometer: With the engine running, the tachometer senses ignition pulses from the disuibutor through the igniter unit. The solid-state tachometer displays these pulses as engine speed. For each 200 pulses per minute from the igniter unit, the tachometer displays 100 rpm.
Now, considering the comments you pointed out from a different thread, the video I watched, the RPM fluctuation I've been experiencing and the few tests I've performed, I got my eye on the distribuitor assembly. You see, the tachometer, reads the RPM from the igniter unit, meaning, if the igniter unit is intermitently failing to produce a pulse, the RPM sensor will fluctuate exactly as it was doing on the first video I shared. Makes a lot of sense. now, I could be wrong but I believe I have sufficient understanding to test this theory. Since the car is not starting, I should be able to observe inconsistent or fluctuating spark coming out of the coil. I will then measure signal in the ICU input to see if the ECU is sending the command signal to have the ICU fire. If there is signal from the ECU, then the problem has to be inside the distribuitor. If there is no signal coming from the ECU then it could be CKP sensor, ECU or a number of other things.Only problem is that my battery is dying, so I may have to take it out and carry it to a workshop to have it recharged.
I have multimiter that should help with this. Still unable to find a test light. Will probably have to order it online. Wish me luck! Be back later with news.
It's important to remember that these cars are very particular of their want of Honda (OEM) parts replacement. If you decide to get a new distributor an aftermarket will likely be much cheaper, but will likely not work well and not last long. Test the ICM and igniter first and if either or both are faulty just replace them instead of the whole distributor unit. If you can find a distributor in a salvage yard that takes returns that's a good option too.
*******'s Box is one of my favorite Youtube mechanics. He is very thorough and obviously intelligent. I followed a lot of his tips (another video) when I did my first headgasket replacement years ago. If you read some of these https://www.google.com/search?q=92-0...client=gws-wiz you will likely find igniters and/or ICM's causing similar symptoms to your engine.
Last edited by Wankenstein; 01-27-2023 at 03:12 AM.
Well, I won't be able to purchase Honda original parts cause they don't sell these here. There are also no junkyards in this country I am so I'm stuck with aftermarket. I have only seen one Honda used distribuitor for sale in FB Marketplace and it looks really bad. Videos are very useful. I will go today after work and test the coil. Will see how long the battery lets me progress before it dies.
@Wankenstein You won't believe it! I removed the distribuitor cap and of course the rotor was pointing somewhere else other than required to remove the screw. Saw in the videos that it is not a good idea to crank without giving the spark somewhere to go so I thought -I will re-assemble the whole thing and do 3 super short cranks to have the rotor move to the right position- So, I got on the seat and put the key in. Gave it a touch to ignition and the thing fired right up. But like, instantly.
Since the battery was running very low, I just left it running for a few minutes to charge it a bit, in case I would refuse to start again. Now, I was determined to check the coil so I turned it back off and removed the cap again. To my surprise the rotor was on proper position so I removed it and removed the shield, which BTW is cracked and toasted. And man, that thing in there is nasty.
There is a mix of oil with a red dust or something all over the ignitor. The screws are all rusty and even though I tried very hard to remove the screws to the coil so that I could take it out, I was unable to even move them.
I -though- removed the connectors to the ignitor and things were even worse. There was a greenish-yellow goo covering everything. The cables have all sorts of goo and rust on them. Cleaned it all up the best I could with a piece of paper towel and a very fine sandpaper. Tighten up the connectors with my pliers and reconnected everything. Of course the car started up just fine. The iddle is still low (400-500 RPM) but better than before. Most likely a new distribuitor is in order, right? I could try to take it appart and cleanup everything, and maybe with it out of the engine bay I will be able to remove the coil screws to measure resistance and all that. I'm a but scared I will break something.
Also, I honestly don't know if it started up because of me moving the distribuitor around or just randomly.
I have a leak in the valvecover near the distribuitor that may be pushing oil inside the distribuitor, but I'm not sure if that is even possible.
Took some pics for you to see and give me your opinion.
Customs here will charge 50% of the cost of the item just to be able to move it inside the country, then I will have to pay the national courier to move it to my place, even if I payed it to be delivered to my door... So, cost would be "Cost of item + International Shipping + 50% + National Shipping"... Yeah, I know.
Actually, scratch that. there is 75% (35% + 40%) in taxes when exchanging to foreign currency, so it would be "Cost of item + 75% + International Shipping + 50% + National Shipping"
.To my surprise the rotor was on proper position so I removed it
Inspect the rotor for any cracks, wear or burn marks.
Originally Posted by DeathCoreBoy1
There is a mix of oil with a red dust or something all over the ignitor. The screws are all rusty and even though I tried very hard to remove the screws to the coil so that I could take it out, I was unable to even move them.
Maybe the prior owner let the car sit unused for an extended period and rust formed in the distributor? Red dust looks to be from rusted metal, likely from the rusted distributor shaft spinning and spraying rust dust inside. Possibly use an impact wrench. Vid for hard to remove screws.
ThereI -though- removed the connectors to the ignitor and things were even worse. There was a greenish-yellow goo covering everything. The cables have all sorts of goo and rust on them. Cleaned it all up the best I could with a piece of paper towel and a very fine sandpaper. Tighten up the connectors with my pliers and reconnected everything. Of course the car started up just fine. The iddle is still low (400-500 RPM) but better than before. Most likely a new distribuitor is in order, right? I could try to take it appart and cleanup everything, and maybe with it out of the engine bay I will be able to remove the coil screws to measure resistance and all that. I'm a but scared I will break something.
.
The goo is likely old dielectric grease possibly mixed with patina from rusted connectors. Try it like it is for a week or so and see if starts, idles and doesn't fluctuate under load,
If you want to clean it better buy a can of DeOxit electronics cleaner/lube, take it apart and clean it with a toothbrush and Deoxit spray.
Originally Posted by DeathCoreBoy1
I have a leak in the valvecover near the distribuitor that may be pushing oil inside the distribuitor, but I'm not sure if that is even possible
Here's a write-up on the internal distributor seal replacement. https://www.instructables.com/Reseal...a-Distributor/ which also has good pics of the inside of a clean distributor. I don't think your distributor is having an internal oil leak, but I can't say that it isn't either. I personally wouldn't replace the internal seal unless I was absolutely sure oil is leaking inside.
What a leaking external distributor o-ring ( the one the mechanic already replaced) can cause is premature deterioration of the cylinder head's inlet water/coolant hose that is directly under the distributor. Check that hose with a flashlight and by feeling it with your hand for soft spots, bubbling, tears, thinning.
Last edited by Wankenstein; 01-29-2023 at 03:29 PM.
The previous owner did tell me that he used it very little so your theory makes sense. Been using it and so far, the symptoms are the same. It has not improven, except for the fact that it started up and I can use it. But the RPM fluctuation on cold starts are back and it is hard to start when is is cold. So, I'm thinking that it did not start because of what I did. It just randomly started up. Good neews is that now that I can drive it, I can get an appointment to have a specialist mechanic look at it (and pray that it will start the day I have to drive it there ). I do want to clean the distribuitor and measure the coild tho, so I may come back to removing it during this week. The Honda workshop will give me an appointment for 20 days in the future or so. Will keep you posted.
The rotor was actually in pretty good condition. I thought I took a picture of it to show you but I can't find it on my phone. Will take one this week when I take it appart to clean it up.
01-19-2023
). I do want to clean the distribuitor and measure the coild tho, so I may come back to removing it during this week. The Honda workshop will give me an appointment for 20 days in the future or so. Will keep you posted.
