Rep Power: 210

1995 Civic EX, M/T.

Proportional control valve is leaking brake fluid. According to a video I watched it can be repaired with a Danco #17 O-ring however, the two bolts that fasten the top and bottom pieces need a special tool (similar to a torx bit) or grind the heads off and remove threads with a vice-grip. Looking for info on the replacement bolt spec (mm/pitch/length). Pretty sure I can find replacements at Ace hardware.

Also best way to prevent a sticking throttle body? High idle drops to normal when I manually close the throttle plate. I removed and cleaned the throttle body really well (removed all carbon deposits) a couple months ago but, now it is sticking again. From the exterior I can see slight play when I turn the TB ear (pulley). Does loosening or tightening the nut that holds the pulley on effect play?

 
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hey turd LOL this post needs a reply

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...placement.html

 
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I am not seeing a bolt in the parts catalog. Got pics?
Proportioning valve on non-ABS coupe.....I do see a single nut called 'nut, paint cutting', so there is probably a couple studs sticking out of the firewall to holds the prop valve.



TB may have worn throttle shaft bushings.....check this thread https://www.civicforums.com/forums/2...ew-answer.html

Be aware this is not a proper repair and it can cause other issues.

 
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Thanks for the link. No pics but shown in video below starting at 3:10 mark:

 
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Done. Thanks. Soldering time.

 
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@3:14 looks like a tamper-proof Torx, but I can't tell what #size it is. Probably one of 20/25/27 or 30

Tamper-proof because brakes are a safety system so of course DFWI

Carry valve into the zone and search for the tool that will fit it?

Threads of those bolts look like will be of a typical bolt size and pitch, nothing fancy other than there may be clearance issues getting a socket on the heads of different fasteners.

 
Rep Power: 210

Thanks.

Local Home Depot stocks the O-rings and well, looky here: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Folding-Tamperproof-Torx-Set-8-Piece-HFTPTK8PC/202934906
Purchased these yesterday to remove the brake line flare nuts: http://www.harborfreight.com/5-pc-me...set-61357.html

 
Rep Power: 210

New O-ring is in and my son and I bled air out of brake line from the passenger rear bleeder screw. Is this good enough for air removal or do I need to bleed the driver rear and both front calipers?

New O-ring looks to being working well and no leak seen.

 
Rep Power: 518

It's a dual diagonal system and the prop valve has a total of 6 lines, yes?
I'd be bleeding all 4 of them to assure all air is bled from all circuits in the system (best practices).

Hope you researched rubber type compatibility with the intended usage, and the O rings you selected are made from a material that is resistant to glycol based fluids, EPDM probably would have been a good choice.
The wrong material can degrade or swell quickly.


http://www.applerubber.com/seal-desi...rake-fluid.cfm

http://forums.mtbr.com/downhill-free...ml#post9699749

http://www.marcorubber.com/compatibility.htm

 
Rep Power: 210

Yes

Thanks. I kinda figured as much so I left it on jacks and will bleed the other three today. Ensures new brake fluid in system as well as air bled out.

Thanks for the links and I did read through them. I contacted Danco via email and waiting for their reply. The guy that posted the video I linked updated in one of his replies and said that seven months after installing the Danco #17 o-ring there isn't any leaking present.

 
Rep Power: 210

Correct bit size is: T-30 Tamper-Proof Torx
Good call. Bit is easy to find.

The crow's foot flare nut wrench was good for intial loosening and final tightening. However, a regular 10mm wrench was much easier to use after/before those two points.

 
Rep Power: 210

Started researching more adter your post concerning material type for O-ring.
Found this informative thread on faucet washers/O-rings: http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=6499 and it appears that the Dayco O-ring is most likely Nitrile Rubber (formerly Buna-N) due to it's pricing.

According to this chart: http://mykin.com/rubber-chemical-resistance-chart-3 ...Nitrile and EDPM are rated the same (1) and sastisfactory for glycol and ethylene glycol.

Here's a description of DOT 3 brake fluid from this link: http://www.sector111.com/images/prod...ke%20Fluid.pdf

"The very common DOT3 specification brake fluid will be made from a glycol base and will contain glycol ethers and additives to inhibit corrosion (to prolong braking component life) and promote lubricity (to extend seal life). DOT 3 fluids have a minimum dry boiling point of 401°F (205°C)minimum and a minimum wet boiling point of 284°F (140°C). It will be clear to amber in color and be hygroscopic (absorbs moisture). It will absorb 1% to 2% of moisture content per year, depending on climate and operating conditions. This moisture absorption will reduce its boiling point, eventually lowering down to the wet boiling point or even below. It does not require a system flush before using and can be mixed with DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 without damage to the system. As with all glycol based fluids, it can damage the paint on a vehicle"

What i do know for sure is it (brake fluid) will eat through asphalt quickly. So, that's job number two on my list (asphalt driveway). Hopefully, all the oil I leaked onto the asphalt over the past two years from my Honda Sievics will act as a barrier to the brake fluid..LOL, , ,

 
Rep Power: 518

Drop an extra O ring into a clear vial of brake fluid....tape another extra to the outside of the vial as a control sample...... and set it on a shelf....check it every couple weeks/months to see if the one soaking is swelling or otherwise deteriorating?

Brake fluid will rinse away with water. Make sure to rinse down the firewall and any other spillage so it doesn't eat the paint off the car.

 
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Brilliant

Yesterday (after repair) I washed firewall, motor mount and non-electrical/sensor parts off with diluted water/soap spray bottle and then sprayed (light pressure) with garden hose.

 
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Two problems:

1) rear left bleeder screw (prior owner) is snapped off but, not leaking. Couldn't bleed from that one. Issue for another day.

2) Bled other three but, proportional valve is now leaking from rubber stopper shown in attached pic. What does that rubber plug do? can it be tapped and covered to prevent leak. Is it okay to drive as is .. as long as I check brake fluid level.

This post provides some answer and a fix (maybe?) in the last reply# 24
https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspen...-leak-2658379/

 
Rep Power: 518

I sure don't like the idea of permanently sealing the hole where the rubber plug is. It's designed that way for a reason (to let you know something is wrong inside it).
You know why it had tamper proof Torx bolts holding it together, right?

Depends on how rapid the leakage is.

I'd want to see it disassembled and up close to see how it is constructed, but I'd expect it's leaking because the seals for the movable (proportioning) pistons inside are allowing fluid to pass......



There is quite literally zero info and absolutely no mention of the prop valve in ESI...and no info about how it works, what to do with it or what to do about it.
Most goggle searches take me to a couple threads in HT....and then I saw this


(part of this thread: http://crxcommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57&start=25)


I assume the O ring seal you replaced was between the two casting halves (so it can't leak at the bolted flange), while the actual internal leak source is one or both of the two pistons inside (which would leak out the weep hole that had the rubber plug).

 
Rep Power: 210

I filled the brake reservoir to Max level and drove around for 15 minutes and performed repeated test braking before I got into traffic. Just checked level again and it's still at max. Only leaks when brake pedal is depressed.

The internals on mine are exactly like the ones in the pic you posted. The o-ring I replaced wasn't leaking so, as you stated the piston(s) must be.

Yes, correct. Makes sense.

Looks like choice is to either pull one from salvage yard ($15-$20)
Purchase used on Ebay ($35-$55)
Purchase new from Son's Honda ($125 includes shipping)

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I removed and cleaned the throttle with TB cleaner. As of now the high idle is gone but, still a bit of hunting idle during last part of deceleration to full stop. Hunting last for a few seconds thenthe engine returns to normal idle.

Raised adjustable springs about an inch on both front and back and now the ride is less harsh over bumps.

 
Rep Power: 210

Did more research last night and it appears the pistons do have O-rings as well (reply #23 & 24): https://www.3geez.com/forum/3geez-ac...ing-valve.html

Depending on the year/make/model there looks to be several brake ratios (front/rear). 5th gen civics appear to be 40/30 stock but, some people online replace DPCV with 40/40. I wish I knew which make/models had which in case I decide to pull one from a salvage yard. Would open up options instead of being limited to pulling from 5th gen civics only.

The gentleman in the video I posted replied to my question. Here's his reply:
I listed 3 different sized O-rings in my video. You need all 3 different sizes. Danco #7, #83, and #17

I didn't replace piston o-rings (not purposefully). Damn it I'm pretty sure I have comprehension issues. I do this with reading/replying to forum posts too. Well, I'm going to try this again Wednesday and it should go faster this time. Danco replied and confirmed the O-ring is made of Nitrile (Buna-n). Marco rubber chart shows Nitrile rubber is excellent for glycol.

What would be the best way to remove the broken bleeder screw on left rear drum? It's broken off to a point where it sits flush with the back of the drum. Seems like a reverse drill bit might work ..though very concerned I might mess up the drum's threads. Possible to JB weld on a piece of round steel (ex: broken drill bit shaft) that's a smaller diameter than the bleeder screw then after JB weld fully cures..use a drill to reverse it out?
Should I let a mechanic handle it instead?

 
Rep Power: 518

The pics in posts 23 and 24 are great (no time to go further right now). Lots more to reseal now.

 
Rep Power: 518

In your video the guy just pulled the pistons out with pliers. Don't gouge any important seal surfaces.

 
Rep Power: 210

Okay. Will put painter's tape over wire strippers (like shown in video) to avoid scratching. Still bugging the crap out of me I missed that..oh well, if it works it save me some dosh. I used the car today for about 30 minutes and the brake fluid barely went down.

 
Rep Power: 518

"Barely" is a lot in terms of brake fluid loss where the entire system might hold less than a pint.
Does the pedal very slowly sink while stopped at a light?


I don't think you'll hurt the exposed ends of the pistons, it didn't look like they seal against anything and don't rub the sides of the bore, they only hold a spring?

 
Rep Power: 210

It doesn't. Going to and from work (3 miles each way) tomorrow and then a 10 minute drive to my mammy's house on Wednesday to start repair.

Correct..small, middle point holds smaller spring and outer diameter holds larger spring.

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As far as the TB.. high idle seems to be gone but, has a low rpm hunting idle intermittently now. I asked the seller a few days ago if he ever checked ignition timing and adjusted valves and he said he has not. Would either of those effect/cause hunting idle?

 
Rep Power: 518

Pick up a used one to build (reseal) at your leisure then swap it in later?

Hunting....If it has worn throttle shaft/bushings that don't allow the butterfly to consistently close to the exact same position every time, that alters the minimum air rate at each closing and confuses the ECM because it learned a different idle air rate?

Adjust valves and check timing if they have not been recently done.

 
Rep Power: 210

That makes sense.

This Frankendong (formerly Frankenturd) motor has a B20 block and head, LS P75 intake manifold (stock is giraffe type), and who knows which TB? Should have numbers stamped on it somewhere. Seller included a lot of parts that I barely looked through a few months ago..maybe a TB is in the mix. Will any B-series TB work?

 
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You're asking the wrong guy now. I deal with mostly stock stuff, and not much that old has rolled through our shop in the last decade.

 
Rep Power: 210

Been reading some online concerning shaft bushing wear and there's many threads about it. Doesn't seem to be any replacement shaft seals available.
There's a '98 and '99 CR-V at the local LKQ pick & pull so, I might check them out.

 
Rep Power: 518

Look into carburetor throttle shaft bushing kits? IDK.
Pick something low mileage.

 
Rep Power: 210

I'll pull a used one, install it and perhaps ship the current one to this guy: http://www.maxbore.com/
He has descriptions of the process at the bottom of his page. I will call or email him to find out if replaces bushings/straightens shaft.

 
Rep Power: 518

For that price you could probably have a supply of decent low mileage used TBs that would outlast the car.