stevenf89si

Hey everyone. Just wondering if I can get help getting this old girl started. I recently acquired a 1989 civic si 1.6 for free!($70.50 tow bill). The guy says he was driving down a hill, the car stalled and he couldn't get it going again. I got it home and checked the spark, spark seemed good. Cranked it over and I could smell gas. I found the main relay and re- soldered it to make sure it had a good connection. I get 3 clicks from it which from what I've read means it's ok. Then I checked compression.... I got 60 PSI across the board +/- a few which seems odd for all cylinders to be that close but that low? I then took the valve cover and timing cover off, set #1 to tdc. The "up" on the cam gear is up, the horizontal lines line up with the head, and the lone line on the crank pully lines up with the plastic pointer on the bottom timing cover. When it's set like this, the exhaust valves seem open/ tight and the intake seems relaxed/ closed on #1. Then I took the distributor cap off and the rotor is pointing to the # 3 wire(top rear) which I believe is 90 degrees away from #1? I'm not really sure what's going on with it but am hopeing someone has more experience with this and could help. Thanks.

Steve

stevenf89si

I just rechecked the exhaust valves at tdc and they are very firm but can be slid over so they must be closed? Checked the compression on one and two again and they were about 75 PSI. Distributor rotor still pointing at # 3 plug wire when it's at tdc in cylinder one. The plugs spark about once a second which seems a bit slow?

ezone

Where's your service manual?
What does the service manual show for timing marks setup/orientation on the cam and crank gears?
Then distributor/cap/wires/firing order?

What info does it have about setting valve lash adjustment?

stevenf89si

I have not yet bought a manual as I just got the car on saturday( yesterday). I don't have a lot of experience with valve or ignition timing and was just hopeing someone had a similar problem and knew what it was. Or what it might be?

ezone

I figured this already, that's why I asked about the manual.
You should get (and read) a good service manual before diving in and possibly getting stuff wrong, or worse, causing damage.

If you got the cam timing wrong, or someone else did, the engine might bend valves. Then you would get to learn all about pulling the head off to repair that mess.

Fix the cam timing/timing belt first.
Because timing marks are usually used as reference during setup to perform a valve adjustment, the Cam-crank relationship must be accurate and correct before doing it.

After timing and valve clearances are all straightened out, then you can do a compression test.

If the engine does have decent compression, then straighten out the plug wires and see if it will run. (And, cam timing must be correct before attempting to check distributor timing)

See if the rotor in the distributor is loose, screw missing, free to spin on its own?
Plug wires not in correct firing order around the cap?




I personally don't have much of any service info for that car.

stevenf89si

Yes I do know how valuable a manual can be and if I can't figure it out on here, I will defiantly will have to get one. I haven't done a car/truck head but I have replaced valves on my Honda fourtrax. I know not exactly the same but it looks similar, just a lot more lol.
The rotor in the distributor does not free spin. It has a bit of play but will not rotate. The wires were in correct firing order. One weird thing I did see was the cam pully bolt was backed out about 6-8 threads but the pully didn't seem out of place at all. I just tightened it back up for now. Maybe something had enough play with the loose pully it skipped?
I'm not sure how to properly quote things, but you said "Fix the cam/ timing belt first. Because timing marks are usually used as reference during setup to perform a valve adjustment, the Cam-crank relationship must be accurate and correct before doing it." It all looks like it's checking out to me but again, I have little experience with timing. I lined up #1 to TDC as per the cam pully, had a small steel rod in the #1 cylinder to physically see the piston was at the top of the stroke. The pointer on the bottom timing cover also lined up with the lone mark on the crank pulley

ezone

Awwww hell.
That would certainly explain why the cam pulley could indicate one thing but the distributor rotor says something entirely different, and low compression, and bad valve adjustments.

The cam pulley probably is not correctly indexed to the camshaft now?
There was a dowel or keyway to keep them aligned, and if it's been run loose it could be damaged/wallered out/beat to death.
Need to pull the bolt out and pull the pulley off the cam to inspect keyway?

Are you familiar with companion cylinders, and watching valve overlap to determine when a companion is on TDC?
(Ex: piston #1@TDC = valves on #4@overlap)
If you are, this would be all screwed up if the cam pulley is no longer correctly indexed to the camshaft.

stevenf89si

I think I know what your talking about. Like 2 is companion to 3 as they both are at tdc at the same time but fire opposite? I'm not to sure about the overlap between the two though. So next step I should take would be to see if the key is still in and in good condition? If its in there and not smashed up, would it be safe to assume nothing is wrong at the cam pulley? It will probably be wednesday before I can get to it.

ezone

Bingo! 2 and 3 are companions, 1 and 4 are companions on this inline 4 cylinder engine.
Valve overlap.
On the exhaust stroke the piston rises and the exh valve closes as piston reaches the top, and intake valve opens for the intake stroke as the piston begins to go down.
The moment the valves are both moving is "overlap" (not all cams are ground with overlap, but watch the valves and you should be able to tell when they transition from one event to the next) and if everything is right it means the companion piston is on TDC compression.

IF piston #1 is on TDC, valves on #4 must be at overlap. If not, something is outta whack big time. If the cam pulley is timed right on the belt, then it must not be indexed to the camshaft.

=======================
I used to deal with this on crank pulleys on another brand car line a lot....someone would leave a pulley a bit loose and it would beat the keyway out and then be out of time, even though all the marks line up AND the ignition timing looked correct...but really....pulley TDC marks aren't indexed to the crank, and the #1 piston isn't really at TDC. Runs like shpoop,

I probably would, if I can tell the cam pulley timing marks aren't aligned as expected when overlap occurs on a desired set of valves,,, it's not right,,,,,,,see the statements above

Maybe.

stevenf89si

Hey ezone. Curiosity got the best of me so tonight after work I had to check that cam pulley. You defiantly hit the nail on the head there. I took the bolt and washer off to uncover a sliver( about 2mm thick), of a piece (about a 1 cm long) of a key wedged sideways in the key way. Also a bit of metal dust. so I'm guessing timing belt removal will be next step? Or can I just loosen it because all I have to deal with is the cam pulley? I also noticed that there is a key slot in the cam shaft but there didn't seem to be one on the cam pulley. Does it just wedge in to begin with? Or am I missing something there. I'm starting an apprenticeship soon and will need to get down to Vancouver for school at some point, so I'm hopeing this car will be up to the task. I'm in central b.c and it was -4C with blowing snow tonight! F*** . Winters here!. I plugged the old girl in so at least my hands won't freeze tomorrow. Hopefully it'll just be warmer!

ezone

So something has worn metal, you gotta figure out what's salvageable now.
I dunno...... what do you think you can get away with?

What does your service manual say? LOL

I don't know how it was built to begin with.

Could have had the key completely separate and removable, or it could have been machined as part of the pulley.
I checked the parts catalog, it doesn't show a separate key so I bet it was part of the cam pulley.

You need to figure out how to deal with what is there now.

Like I said earlier, my info covers very little on cars that old, and I was not around when those cars were popular and plentiful.




"Part of being a good technician is the ability to adapt on the fly.
Often times things don't go the way the book says it should..."

stevenf89si

This is what I did. I turned the crank to the TDC mark on the crank pulley so atleast that was ok as we were now sure the cam pulley had spun. Loosened the timing belt via the rubber plug in the lower timing cover. Slipped the timing belt off of the cam pulley and tied it off to the side. I now have the cam pulley off and can see it was pressed into the pulley and has sheared off. I didnt know at the time but there is a circle stamped into the pulley referencing where the key is located. Kind of handy as the keyway isnt visable on the pulley itself, only on the cam.
I have been thinking about re installing the new pulley and it can only go in one spot when the key is in. So I should beable to slide the new cam pulleyonto the cam shaft. Bolt it on, line up the distributor to the #1 plug and make sure the cam pulley marks line up with the head with the "up" facing up. Then make sure the crank is still lined up and put the timing belt back on. Is that it? or is that just me hopeing its easier than it really is?

ezone

Ok, now what I would do:

Rotate the crank a quarter turn either direction (90 degrees). This will put all 4 pistons at mid stroke so you won't hit any valves when you spin the camshaft.
(Hopefully there isn't already damage.....? At least you won't cause more if there is.)
Slide the pulley on, and check for slop in the fit ---see if the camshaft mounting surfaces have been worn down, AND that the key slot is not beat out, it should also fit snug.
It should fit the cam somewhat snug so it stays perfectly centered when it gets tightened.
The key needs to have zero slop because just a few degrees off (retarded cam timing) can make the engine run really lousy.

Don't start with the distributor.

Keyway on the cam gear is probably going to align with the UP stamp, so the key slot on the cam goes straight up if you can turn it. If not, wait til after the pulley is bolted on.

Bolt the pulley on. Torque to spec.

Spin cam so UP is somewhere around 12 oclock position. (The word UP only indicates cam is set for #1 TDC instead of #4, it is not a timing mark.)

Line up the cam gear timing marks (as per your service manual, probably 2 lines in the edges of the cam gear get aligned with the head surfaces)), then slowly return the crankshaft 90 degrees to its TDC position, and put the timing belt on correctly. Tension the timing belt --as per serv manual.

Then you can check the distributor if you want to, I'm sure it will then be pointing correct again.

stevenf89si

Ok sounds good. Thanks for all the help ezone. I may or may not have found that broken key on my own, but these forums have been extreamly helpful on numerous occassions and I really appreciate it. Its awsome that people can get togeather and brainstorm to figure things out on a website. You probably saved me $600+ in a shop. Its not running yet but ive got my fingers crossed that theres no valve damadge. I ordered the cam pulley and it should be here saturday. If all goes well and its running by the weekend, next will be replacement rear quarter panels to take most of the rust off. The pulley is $80 bringing my civic to a total of $150.50.... so far.

stevenf89si

Hey ezone. The pulley came in today. I got everything back togeather and she came to life! Except it only ran for about 5 seconds before I had to shut it off as I couldnt hear the motor over the squeel of the alternator belt.... needless to say next thing is the alternator. Then I can see what the motor sounds like. I will have to look up how to get that alternator out as it seems pretty tight. May have to take the axle out? Or the break master cylinder.. but it runs! Thanks again ezone

ezone

Don't replace the alternator unless it's actually a problem.

If the alternator isn't locked up, you need to tighten the belt more first then re-evaluate.