redraif

I did some searching and there seems to be no exactsituation that matched ours so I wanted to get you alls Opinion.



So we have a 1993 Honda DelSol Si VTECH. It has 153,597miles. We failed the emissions test thisweekend. We failed the NOX with nearlydouble the allowed numbers…. YIPES!



***A bit of background for a maintenance reference… It mightget long, but I would rather give you too much then not enough!



We bought the car about 2 years ago. A kid was building it as a spiriteddriver. It has fresh paint, new lights,some simple gfx, lowered, has an intake, headers, cat delete with bolt instraight pipe and an aftermarket muffler. He had a shop do all the maintenances… plugs, wires, cap, rotor, O2,timing belt, water pump, gaskets… from what I remember basically a heavy tuneup / light rebuild. Knowing we hademission in GA, we promptly bought a bolt in replacement cat.



Once home, we had to deal with some paperwork due to buyingout of state that delayed us getting it emission tested. Over those few months, we had an intermittentcheck engine light. It only came on whenthe car hit one particular large bump at speed. One minute down the road and it promptly went back off. No code was present when the car wastested. No idea, but without a savedcode we were stuck.



We went for emission and it failed. A Honda friend recommended to change the O2based on what section it failed. It wasa new O2 though. The Kid had hismechanic install the new one maybe a month before we bought it. Well I aired on the side of caution and got anew one. I went to change it. Because ofthe headers, the o2 was further downstream, AKA, stock wires did notreach. Well upon close inspection, itwas a very sloppy job with butt connectors and twisted wires… Now it made sensethe bump made the wires jerk and set code. Well that was not the only issue. He swapped 2 of the wires. It wasreading backwards. Since I did not knowif his wiring had fried the o2 I went with the new one and rewired everythingcorrectly. (Soldered, dielectric greaseand shrink tube on every connection) Wecrossed our finger and retested. The carpassed.



So life was good. Itwas so late in the year when the car passed that we were exempt from theemission last year. So fast forward tothis year… about 1 month ago the Del decided to develop some quirks over aweek. It began to sputter when my wifewould get on the gas hard when turning left. Then that grew to a sputtering and loss of power going uphill. Then a general sputter when the car was askedto perform. No check engine light. Starting simple, I suspected bad fuel. I started with Lucas fuel treatment andpremium fuel. Still problematic, Iresearched. We were directed to plugs,wires, cap & rotor. But they were notthat old. But not knowing if the Kidpicked out something because it was supposed performance… blah blah… I changedthem anyway. The plugs lookedhorrid. The wires seemed ok and theywere 8mm, so I left them. Tried to startthe car and it did not want to start. Wegot it going, but I figured maybe a wire was not on tight I started checkingthem. All was well at the plugs. The dist cap was some clear cheapy, and Icould see the spark through it. Something seemed off though. Itouched one of the wires at the cap to see if it was tight. I could now feel current leaching at the Distcap. Maybe the cap was cracked? So off to the store. Upon removing the cap and rotor, there wasoil all over the bottom side of the cap. Had the rubber seal failed? All theconnectors were corroded and nasty. Therotor button was seized on there. I gotit apart, cleaned up and changed. Thecar fired up and ran better. There wasno more leaching current. So out for adrive and then the dreaded sputter… So on to the wires. Now the car was running with no sputter,finally.



Then before I get it home from its test run, it throws a code. Good grief… So this points to the Fuel Filteror pump. The fuel filter was on therelike Hercules installed it. My guess, itwas never changed. Line wrenches proveddifficult to locate and cost more then the shop would charge, so I paid theshop to do it. Code was gone and the carran great! And this was a monthago…



***



With all that behind us, I figured we were good to go forthe Emissions this year. But as I statedearlier… nope! No check engine light atthe time of the test. We ran it withpremium fuel as recommended by the emission station. I drove it for at least 15 minutes in cityconditions prior to the test. Tempoutside was moderately cool with light rain fall.



Here is the test result.

Test Date/Time:04/19/2014 @ 16:09

Test Type: Initial

Test Fee: $25.00



VEHICLE INFORMATION

Year: 1993

Make: HONDA

Model: CIVIC DEL SOL

Cylinders: 4

Eng: 1 .6 L

Trans: MANUAL

Odometer: 153597

Body: SEDAN Stds:



TEST RESULTS

25/25 Test



HC ppm : Reading: 145 Allowed: 147 Result: Pass

CO % : Reading: 0.48 Allowed: 0.82 Result: Pass

NO,<ppm : Reading: 3695 Allowed: 1072 Result:Fail

RPM: Reading: 2097 Allowed: 3000 Result: max

CO+C02 %: Reading:13.7 Allowed: 6.0 Result: min



50/15 Test



HC ppm: Reading: 73 Allowed: 152 Result:Pass

CO % : Reading: 0.39 Allowed: 0.85 Result: Pass

NO,<ppm: Reading:3025 Allowed: 1186 Result:Fail

RPM : Reading: 1895 Allowed:3000 Result: max

CO+C02 %: Reading:14.3 Allowed: 6.0 Result: min



Catalytic ConverterPresent

Fuel Cap 1 Test = Pass





The emission guy said check 3 things: timing could be off,EGR and catalytic convertor.



Now which suspect to attack first to clean this up?

1) So I will check the timing, but I doubt that is the issueas the car runs fine and no one has touched the timing. It passed the first time just as it sits.



2) EGR… would the car not be coding if there was enoughblockage to double the NOX numbers? Iwill run some SeaFoam through the intake and let it work on any carbon buildups.



3) I'm leaning towards the catalytic convertor.

A) because the plugs and cap were so fouled up that that hadto be causing nasty stuff to be flowing through the system... (lord knows for how long)

B) and in the threads I researched regarding the sputtering…They all said after this condition, there was a chance the cat could go bad.

C) Emissions guy said the aftermarket cats seem to only lastabout 2 years on daily drivers that drive a decent # of miles. (ours fits that bill… right about 2 years onthe cat @ 50 miles/day, 5 days /week)

D) After my firebird had an aftermarket exhaust, intake anda few other goodies… it really affected the life of my cat. Mostly due to the tune not being optimizedfor the bolt-ons and the lack of the good gas older cars need to run right.(ethanol-free) So there is a good chance the same factors will be affecting theDel and causing premature cat failure. Iended up with a bolt in straight pipe for the bird. Only put the cat on once a year at test time!



So what do you guys think?

Poopies

iTrader: (4)

VTEC, not VTECH! VTECH is the Chinese knockoff brand . So that replacement cat, was it OEM or aftermarket? If it's the latter, it could very well be the issue since most of them aren't as reliable as stock.

ezone

High NOx: Elevated combustion temperatures (high operating temp, high compression, etc.), or cat.
EGR is used to lower combustion temperatures.

No. Flow is not monitored, this is not an OBD2 system.

You have to manually test and operate the EGR valve yourself by hand to determine if the passage(s) are clogged or not. The computer can't determine this.
Can't help EGR if that's the issue. At least not the way most use the stuff.


At the mileage you have, I'd bet the EGR passage between the valve and throttle is almost completely clogged.

Oh yeah, cheapo cats are cheap for a reason.

redraif

Sorry... thats what I get for letting the spell check run wild...

I got it at a parts store. All I remember was that it was pricey and a direct bolt in. The car has approx 31597 miles on that cat.

redraif

Thank you for all the replies so far. Been a busy week so i have not been able to much more then research the car's history. Basically putting the story together from the original listing and reciepts we got with the car.
I also worked out some mileage figures.

I replaced the O2 in September 2012 w a Denso. That was 27,748 miles ago. The cat was replaced 31,597 miles ago. Its a direct bolt in. If I can find the receipt I will see if there is a warranty.

Looked at our old emissions test. It seems when we failed last time, with the mis-wired O2. ... the car had high nox as well. The hc numbers were high as well.

Emissions 6/30/12 FAILED OD: 122,406 (brand new cat)
25/25
HCppm : 192 (147) F
CO % : .74 (.82) P
NOX: 1676 (1072) F
CO+C02 %: 13 (6) Min

50/15
HCppm : 62 (152) P
CO % : .2 (.85) P
NOX: 3643 (1186) F
CO+C02 %: 13 (6) Min

09/2012 O2 replacement & rewire (denso 234-4099)
OD: 125,8xx

Emissions :9/22/12 passed OD: 125,849 (new o2, same new cat)
25/25(allowed)
HCppm : 23 (147) P
CO % : .15 (.82) P
NOX: 289 (1072) P
CO+C02 %: 14.3 (6) Min

50/15
HCppm : 24 (152) P
CO % : .23 (.82) P
NOX: 337 (1186) p
CO+C02 %: 14.3 (6) Min

Compared to the recent test...

Emissions 4/19/14 fail: OD: 153,597
25/25 Test
HC ppm : 145 (147) Pass
CO % : 0.48 (0.82) Pass
NO,<ppm : 3695 (1072) Fail
CO+C02 %: 13.7 (6.0) min

50/15 Test
HC ppm: 73 (152) Pass
CO % : 0.39 (0.85) Pass
NO,<ppm: 3025 (1186) Fail
CO+C02 %: 14.3 (6.0) min

the hcc (25/25) test is very close to being out. Could the o2 be bad again? Could the issue with the messed up dist cap, rotor, plugs and wires have thrown things off so far as to fry the o2? The car did throw a code now. Tonight we will find out which one. I'm hopeful that will shed some light on the subject.

ezone

Aaaaand that would be what?

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

What do you consider a pricey cat? I consider it 1000+. A 400 dollar cat is not expensive and won't last long at all unfortunately Not saying that's your issue. Let ezone the diagnostic master figure it out lol ..

redraif

Drum roll please......

And....

I'm not sure.... lol

I got the code 43.... but then it flashed fast 8 times more? What is code 8?

Help!
I recorded it and posted it on YouTube

Code 43 is what we had right after I changed the plugs, wires, dust cap and rotor. The fuel filter change cleared it up. But I remember many folks listed the O2 is a prime candidate when this code shows itself.

ezone

The cheap one that can't do the job you need it to do.

I don't have to deal with emissions testing where I live.

And this car is a bit before my time with a Honda dealer. I was with a different brand back then.

I sure would have expected the lower numbered code to appear before the larger number. Did it?


Code 8, looks like that's "a problem" in the TDC sensor.

Code 43, "A problem" in the HO2S or "a problem" in the fuel supply system.

(I really hate these that only give a trouble tree, I want to know exactly what causes the code to set, what the computer had to see in order to consider it a failure. I have a hard time following the dummy charts without knowing WHY.)

redraif

Did you watch the video to be sure that im right about it being 8? They were not 8 long flashes.... they were short with no long flashes before it. Im used to GM codes.... lol

ezone

Standard 2 digit format, longs and shorts. Looked like 43 and 8 to me.

I just wondered why 43 came first. SEEMS unusual to me, but it's been a long time since I've dealt with anything that old.

redraif

Ok. Time to update. The code 43 is gone. Cleaned up some oil around the O2 so maybe that was it...

So code 8 is what i am dealing with now. The tdc sensor... so I tested the distributor wiring using this diagram...



I wanted to be sure its not the ecm. I used an ohm meter and tested across the leads. I had to use the 200k scale. I crossed the leads and got 0. The first terminals 2 & 6 read .4... the terminals 4 & 8 read .4.... the tdc leads, terminals 3 & 7, gave no reading. Here is the video on youtube:

TDC Test 93 DelSol Si V-Tec:
Please make sure I tested it right. Does this confirm my tdc sensor is defective and I need a new distributor?

We checked with honda and a new lower is $450.00. I want honda but we can't afford it. Who is the next best? Can swap as much from my old dist less the bad sensor to keep the Honda ignition parts? Where is the tdc sensor in the distributor, so I know what to swap or not.

Thanks

ezone

Always use the lowest scale (that will cover the spec range) for better accuracy.
Spec is 350–700 ohm, so you should use the 2000 ohm setting on your meter.

Your readings of .4k ohm are not very accurate at all. The meter is rounding off the true number, big time.

Agree. It's toast.

$297 from Majestic, if I looked up the right one http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=CIVIC&catcgry 2=1993&catcgry3=3DR+SI&catcgry4=KA5MT&catcgry5=DIS TRIBUTOR+%28TEC%29

redraif

Yeah.... there was something wonky with the ohm meter. I tried to set it to a lower range and it was having an issue. I have two exactly the same and they were both having the same error. I dont have much experience with multi meters. But in the end I guess it gave me the result I needed to diagnose the issue. Yes time to get a better multi meter

Thanks for the part link. Everything I found online showed my distributor as discontinued???? But the dealer had it....

redraif

Ok sorry for the delay, too much chaos of late. Poor car has just had to sit... wanted to update though.

So it took a bit, but I got a used oem distributor that tested good on its internal sensors. The junkyard had cleaned it up prior to handing it to me! Ugh! So I could not tell if & where there were any oil leaks. Plus the dang cap on it had no seal and I dont know what he sprayed it with, but I'm 99% sure what he used seeped in under the cap. It had just a touch of an oily substance inside, but nothing that looked like oil from an internal seal leak. I lookdd down in the dizzy and it seemed dry past the top layer of electronics. Since it was the only one from a "running" car, I took it.

Anyway.... cleaned it up and installed it with a new oem o-ring and it seems to be leak free so far.

The timing on the car was off. The 3 notch lines were all forward of the reference indicator. Fwd meaning b/w the nose and indicator. I looked from straight up above. Mine had no color on them anymore. I assume the car was set @ about 10°, if I understand which way is advanced versus retarded on the timing notches. So I set the car to 16°. I have no sticker under the hood, so in researching, I believe 16 is right for factory. Yes I jumpered the wires before I checked and set timing. the car felt so much better. I cleared all codes an none returned.

I added new premium fuel and drove about 15 min. Here is the test....


Seems everything got worse.... ugh! I guess cause the previous owner had retarded the timing?

So now I know its dead on 16°. The dizzy is good. The cat id dead. I will replace. Should I replace the o2? Its not throwing a code. Can it still be bad?

ezone

O2 can be bad without a code. It could be slow to react, it could hang high or low. It could be skewed, it could be 'numb'. There are several ways one can fail, and those old ECMs weren't all that picky about it.


Timing: If you only checked timing AFTER you swapped the distributor then you don't really know what the timing was really at with the old dist.

16* should be the middle notch of the triple notch set.

A loose or jumped timing belt can throw off what the dist/ignition timing shows.




Have you checked EGR operation yet? If it doesn't work or the passage is clogged up, NOx can go sky high.

Running hot can cause it too,
so can carbon buildup on the pistons (of all things).

redraif

Ok... sorry for the confusion.... I checked and marked the old dizzy before I removed it. It was what had the 3 notches to the nose of the indicator. Is that retarded timing?

Timing belt was done right before we purchased the car by a mechanic. Car has been ok since we bought it... 15,000-20,000 miles....

Car seems to be running at normal temps.
I set the car to 16° Dead on based on your description. I checked it after I tightened things down to be sure nothing shifted. All was still on the spot.

The egr.... from what I have read the 93 vtec does not have one?

ezone

I can't picture this description in my head.
Doesn't matter now anyway, does it? You made sure it is timed right now with the new one.
Does YOUR engine have an EGR valve? (I can't see it from here, I usually have to look in parts catalogs or something, and the one I was looking at showed one)
Would you know what one looks like if it bit you?

redraif

I know what a gm egr looks like from the mid and late 80s... as well as Ford's from an 03 Stang. I have not messed with Honda's much, so I keep relying on what my online research uncovers. I will take the book to work tomorrow and dig around at lunch time.. if honda looks like the domestics I can id it.

I guess I was looking for the answer as to what direction the 3 notches on the pulley go in relation to the fixed timing indicator you look at. If the 3 notches are fwd of the indicator ( to the nose of the car) versus behind the indicator (the rear of the car) which way is retarded and which way is advanced? It matters only because it can help to decipher the changes seen bw the two 2014 tests. If the timing was retarded on the old dizzy, with which I performed the first failed test... it would help explain why the hc was lower the first time.

ezone

OK I see what you were getting at but I can't explain it. LOL


Picture this:
The crank spins counterclockwise as you look at the pulley. (crank spins the same direction as the tires rolling forward)

IF you use a socket/ratchet to slowly spin the crank CCW, the 3 notches go past the pointer first (when lined up with the pointer would represent 18, 16, 14 deg BTDC), followed shortly by the single timing notch (at TDC).

Make more sense?

------


Hell, I looked in a catalog again and this time I DON'T see the EGR valve listed at all.
I hate not being able to see the car first hand. I sure can't remember all this stuff.
I can't even remember if I wiped my butt or washed my hands this morning.



Google image search for honda EGR valve to get an idea of various versions they have used over the years.