Rep Power: 0

I changed my timing belt and water pump and I might have set my crank shaft and cam shaft with my timing marks and not the TDC mark, before I took off the old timing belt. I also put the new timing belt on (without moving the crank shaft and cam shaft) and tried to start the car, but it wouldn't turn over...new battery and starter sounds just fine...car will not turn over.

I have read that the crank shaft and cam shaft need to be placed at TDC when changing a timing belt...my question is...why? Does it really matter where they are located when changing a timing belt? Isn't really the problem come if either the crank shaft or cam shaft move while installing timing belt? I don't see the logic in having everything set at TDC...there is nothing special with how the timing belt is put on and logically you would receive the same results whether the crank and cam are on TDC or not. It seems the issue is, "DON'T MOVE THE CRANK OR CAM WHEN PUTTING THE NEW TIMING BELT ON." It all comes down to gears and the timing belt being fitted to fit into the grooves...and the groves will line up and the gears still look the same whether or not the crank and cam are set up at TDC.

I look at it really logical here...lets say I replaced my timing belt 180 degrees opposite of TDC and I removed my old timing belt (WITHOUT moving the crank or cam one bit) and I place my new timing belt on...in the exact same position, matter, belt lines up perfectly with teeth, etc. What variables have changed?

 
Rep Power: 155

How are your valves suppose to open and close at the correct time if they aren't lines up 100% exact? If your cam and crank isn't at TDC together, your pistons will hit your valves, bending valves if not breaking them and can completely destroy the engine.

There are a MILLION write-ups on the internet on how to change a timing belt and where the markings for the cam and crank are. The marks are there to make the job 100 times easier and to ensure that the timing is correct.

If you can't do research on something you don't know how to do, or know how to do the job, I suggest you not touch your vehicle and let an experience mechanic do it.

 
Rep Power: 517

This is why you should follow instructions.

 
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What great advice! How does that help? Instead of discouraging, try encouraging and offering solutions. You do a big disservice to be cynical in your responses to individuals...what good does that do to anyone; other than giving people a piece of your mind by putting others down.

In evaluation of what you have spoken...you mean to tell me that you have never never never made a mistake while working on a car? You mean that you have always followed the rules to the letter 100% perfectly in every form or fashion with regards to cars? Have you not ever run into a operator problem? Do you not make mistakes? We can't make right choices or mistakes without being free to make wrong choices or mistakes.

I don't know of any care mechanic or friend out there who has never made a mistake while working on a car, both small and great. I think if there wasn't mistakes, forums such as civicforums.com would have very little threads.

 
Rep Power: 155

I can't help because I have no idea what motor your working on.

 
Rep Power: 517

So let me get this straight......

You didn't follow standard procedures when replacing your timing belt, and now the engine won't start.

You give a half dozen........And yet you........NVM. Doesn't matter. Still doesn't run.

So.....

Re-examine your work.

Are the crank and cam correctly timed?

 
Rep Power: 517

It might be ok to take a shortcut if you already know the land well.
It's unwise to take a shortcut through unfamiliar territory.

 
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Okay, I have spent several hours taking pictures and Photoshopping my results. I am posting 3 different collages of pictures, because it takes my crankshaft 2 revolutions to complete one cycle. The first two sets of collages is the TDC white mark. The third collage of photos is another mark on the crankshaft, which I am not sure what it is, but I am attaching it here.

 
Rep Power: 517

After all that.......Do you think the engine is "in time"?

 
Rep Power: 517

When the crankshaft pulley is set to its TDC mark (and #1 piston is all the way up), is the cam gear in the correct position?





If the "UP" isn't at the top when you check, then it's ok to spin the crank pulley another turn and recheck the cam marks.

EDIT: Which engine is in that car?

 
Rep Power: 0

1.5 engine!

1995 Honda Civic DX...non v-tec

There is no "UP" mark on my cam shaft...I checked the book and it also confirmed that some engines do not have the word "UP" shown on the cam shaft.

And know, based upon the second photo, I think the cam shaft is slightly off.

 
Rep Power: 517

I meant the code on the front of the block. "D15 something something" is stamped on a flat pad by the bellhousing, beside the exhaust manifold.

Like this area here:


Different versions can have different timing marks.
Also, I usually only look for US and/or NA versions, not international markets.

---------------------------------------------------------


Ok, your 2nd pic



Where you typed "This line is supposed to be aligned here", yeah that looks at least a couple of teeth off.




If you do a timing belt job and you don't have the timing marks all aligned when you take the belt off, the cam can rotate on its own due to valve spring pressure.

At TDC, the cam on that particular engine won't spin by itself under spring pressure. You would have to move it yourself with the belt or a wrench, or maybe by hand.

This is why you should follow published instructions.




That said, it's time to correct your mistake (and hopefully learn from it).
Retime the engine....correctly.
And pray to the deity of your choosing that you didn't bend any valves.

 
Rep Power: 185

Op, just put your cam and crank where ever you want. Throw the belt on. It'll just time itself eventually.

 
Rep Power: 517

^^^And I'm the azzhole?

+1 for Matt.

 
Rep Power: 185

Nope, but I am...hahaha

 
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Would you believe that since owning this car in 2002, I have never seen that code there before...because it was always dirty. I did clean it off and here is the engine..."D15B7" which is the top line and the bottom line is "4347261"

Okay...next step is to get the timing back. Should the first thing I do is put the cam shaft at TDC with the TDC marks on the cam shaft, as seen in my picture #2 (of course with the alignment of the TDC in the correct places (in line with the engine block, as the book says) and the 3rd line aligned where I said it should be aligned (shown in the second picture). Should I start there and than remove everything to get the timing belt off AND THEN align the crankshaft with the TDC white mark?

 
Rep Power: 517

On the cam gear: The 2 marks that line up with the edges of the head (or the indents in the rear cover, depending on the engine type) are the timing marks. The 3rd mark is the equivalent of the "UP" word on other cam gears. Like a simple reference mark so we know if the cam is near #1 or #4.

I'd roll it to have the cam in the correct place, then slip the belt off, then move the crank. Move the crank by rolling it the direction closest to getting it back in time, do NOT roll it through the next revolution to reach the TDC mark (you will bend any valves that are open).
I think that's what you said? LOL, I can't read....that's why I park in handicapped spots.
HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

I am totally confused now, because you had mentioned earlier about my picture #2, where I show a line where it should be (at least that is what I thought I read somewhere in a Honda repair guide) and now you are saying that the third mark or indent is equivalent to the "Up" position; which picture #2 clearly shows it almost 180 degree down. There is a white paint mark on cam (I did not put this there...maybe the last professional timing belt install) and I am wondering if that white paint mark on the cam is the "Up" mark or guide and not the third indent.

I seriously doubt my crank moved during removal and install...because that thing is a beast that is hard to move. The cam on the other hand is not so stuck in place. Never the less, in my picture #2, I have the crank in place with the white TDC mark aligned with the line of sight, cylinder/piston #1 is at its uppermost compression stroke, and the came TDC marks are close to be aligned with the block. My guess is, start with the crank exactly the way it is as shown in my picture #2 and than take the belt off, rotate the cam just a little bit so that the TDC marks are aligned with the engine block and that third line is aligned as I have shown where it should be aligned in picture #2. THEN, replace my timing belt in a suggested order of (cam, crank, tensioner, water pump).

Please, please correct me anywhere and add anything to what I have said.

 
Rep Power: 517

Seems like you aren't clear on why the 3rd mark is on the cam gear.

The 3rd mark is not the word "up", you cannot substitute it for the word "up".
It IS used in the same manner though.

It's there for the same reason as why other cam gears on other engines have the word "up" stamped into them.

It's used as a reference because the cam could be in either of two positions when the crankshaft gear meets its timing mark (when properly timed).

At any point when the 2 timing marks on your cam gear are aligned with the edges of the cylinder head (or triangles in the plastic, if the engine uses those), the cam could be at either #1 or #4 TDC position.

When that 3rd mark is aligned to its reference point (approx 7oclock position on your engine), the cam is known to be in the #1 TDC position.

If that third mark was at the 1 oclock position while the other two marks are aligned with the edges of the head, then I would know the cam is on #4 TDC.


Was that explained any more gooder?

Erase it, get rid of it, ignore it. Do not trust any extra marks that someone has painted on there. You do not know why it was put there, it is not yours.

Use the marks the factory provided, as outlined in the proper service manual. They will always be absolutely correct. No question.

It really does not matter now which one moved. The simple fact is that it is out of time now, and needs to be corrected.

BTW: When the crankshaft is at TDC, it is very easy to move it several degrees in either direction.


How about just following the service manual this time?

 
Rep Power: 312

I understand what your saying. However... the reason you want it to be TDC is because it will always move on you and you don't want to put the belt back on thinking that everything is aligned when it isn't. If both are at TDC. Your final check is a TDC check for both the cam and the crank and you will know that it is timed properly. If you aren't TDC, how do you check unless you've made marks on your own somewhere, at which point you might as well use the premade TDC marks.

 
Rep Power: 0

Success!

At first, I loosened tensioner, removed belt, adjusted cam just a little bit to get it to TDC, put belt back on, then rotate crank several rotations; however, the cam got off again (because I did not tighten tensioner back up).

Going at it again, I get crank to TDC, tensioner is already loose, I remove belt, adjust cam just a little bit to TDC, tighten tensioner, rotate crank several times and TDC lines all match up. I turn on the car and it starts! Sweeeeeeet! Of course, I will adjust the timing with my timing light, just for good measure.

I have one question though...how close should the TDC marks on the cam be with the engine block? Its hard to tell with just looking at the indent TDC lines. I mean, I see that the word "UP" is sure enough in the "UP" position, but how accurate are we talking about here that my cam needs to be to TDC? Are we talking about within 1 centimeter...within a millimeter? Yes my car started up (after a good 8 months of sitting)...I just want to make sure my valves don't get destroyed, all because my cam is just a millimeter or two off (which is so hard to tell).

I actually discovered in my Chilton, that in my #2 picture where I said, "This line is suppose to be aligned here" is actually wrong. With my particular engine (D15B7), I do not line it with that...I align the TDC marks with the cylinder head upper surface and make sure the "UP" is in fact "UP." The results of that third indent line that I made the mistake of saying where it should be aligned, is actually slightly off to the left of that pointy line on the plastic casing...it also shows it slightly off in my Chilton (for my particular engine). However, for the D15B6 engine, you need to align it with that plastic casing line. Never the less, I am pretty sure the blasted thing is close as I can get it.

 
Rep Power: 517

Yay!

If you did not move the distributor while this mess was going on, then it should not need any adjustment.

Once set, the distributor should never ever need any further adjustment for the rest of its life, unless it is physically moved or removed from the cylinder head.

A correctly completed timing belt job will not affect the ignition timing.

Freekin' AMAZING.


You can only be as close as perfect, or a tooth off. A tooth off is the distance between two teeth on the timing belt, whatever that may be.

If moving it the distance of the next available tooth will not get it any closer, then you can assume it's already in the right spot.

Put your timing light on it (assuming you haven't touched the distributor). If the spark timing is off by more than 20 degrees, then you might still have the belt a tooth off. A single tooth off can result in anywhere from 20-40 degrees of ignition timing error, depending on the distance between the teeth on the timing belt (varies between manufacturers, and varies between engine designs).

 
Rep Power: 0

I actually did move the distributor a tad (or should I say loosen the bolts). I earlier (many months ago) wanted to see if I could get the car started by moving the distributor in both directions (of course that did not work). I do have a timing light gun and I know how to use it...so I will time the timing belt, since the distributor bolts are loose.

I actually discovered in my Chilton, that in my #2 picture where I said, "This line is suppose to be aligned here" is actually wrong. With my particular engine (D15B7), I do not line it with that...I align the TDC marks with the cylinder head upper surface and make sure the "UP" is in fact "UP." The results of that third indent line that I made the mistake of saying where it should be aligned, is actually slightly off to the left of that pointy line on the plastic casing...it also shows it slightly off in my Chilton (for my particular engine). However, for the D15B6 engine, you need to align it with that plastic casing line. Never the less, I am pretty sure the blasted thing is close as I can get it.

 
Rep Power: 517

Ok, when you time the distributor and tighten it down....the bolt heads normally end up somewhere near the middle of their adjustment slots. IOW, the dist shouldn't end up turned all the way to one direction or the other.

 
Rep Power: 0

I actually do remember the bolts being in the center when I changed my distributor a year ago and checking the timing then for accuracy. I do appreciate the added measure of providing the information though.

I got everything put back together, but I have noticed the car runs hot. I am not sure if it ran that hot before. I mean the distributor, radiator, radiator hose is not just hot, but VERY HOT. Maybe its been too long since I had this car running. And yes, my temperature gauge shows normal operating temperatures and my radiator fan comes on.

One last thing, I hear a very faint slow squeaky noise coming from my engine...not sure what to make of that.

 
Rep Power: 517

Yep, things get hot in there, because......burning gasoline on fire and stuff.

Normal operating temp is anywhere from 180*F to 220*F. EVERYthing in the engine compartment will heat up given enough time.
That should be all you need to be concerned with. Well that, and all the fluid levels and such.

Can you isolate the noise to any particular area?

If you isolate to the pulley end of the engine (suspect belt noise), then maybe:
A) Remove the accessory belts and run the engine, is the noise still present? IIf No, fix those belts. If Yes, keep going with diag. below)

B) Remove the top timing belt cover, reinstall the valve cover...... Run the engine....Dribble clean water on the timing belt as it's running. Does this affect the noise in any way? (If yes, revisit your work in that area.)

Etc., etc.

 
Rep Power: 0

Okay, I'm an idiot...I need more coolant. I drained some when I replaced the water pump in January (of course, my car has not started since) and I totally forgot about the drain. I filled the overflow up twice...its good to go.

I think the squeaking has stopped for the time being. The car has been sitting for 8 months, so things tend to get frozen up without constant lubrication. My smog was due in August and since I have replaced everything in regards to preventative maintenance (oil, oil filter, fuel filter, PCV valve, fuel pump, fuel pump strainer, spark plugs, spark plug wires, distributor cap, distributor rotor, air filter, oxygen sensor, timing belt, water pump, "3" other belts, new battery...am I forgetting anything!?

I am however going to burn through my current gas that has resided in my tank for the past 8 months, as I know gas does breakdown and I don't want that gas in my car when I go to get it smogged...boy when I got that car started our entire garage port filled with a lot of carbon monoxide.

Again, thanks for all your advice!

 
Rep Power: 517

You emptied out the engine block. Completely empty. That's half of the liquid missing from the cooling system.

Not good at all. Hope there isn't any damage from this.

The radiator is what needs filled. It's the most important part. I hope you refilled that part first.

If the coolant level in the radiator is low enough, the system can't suck coolant out of the reservoir.


That was probably more than really necessary. Fuel pumps are a rare failure, for example. I see the cars with 200k, 300k and more on the original pumps.
They are so rare to fail (here in my area), that when I hear of someone replacing a Honda pump, I immediately suspect they didn't have a clue and just fired the parts cannon. Then I wonder what kind of cheap crap they installed, and wonder how long before it strands them far from home.
And the car rolls in to the shop, it still has the same problem the pump was supposed to fix.....These are not GM pumps here, they don't need replaced every time the weather changes.

/rant
//sorry
8 months is nothing. Yes there is some breakdown, but not a whole lot as long as the tank was not left wide open.

I just got finished running out a full tank of 5+ year old fuel in my truck.

Ya, when it comes to a smog check you want every advantage you can get.

Probably a lot of fuel and oil was in the cylinders from being flooded and trying to start it (due to being out of time, keeps injecting gasoline but can't burn it off so it collects in cylinders and exhaust.)