SilverStrings

Hey, I'm new to this forum and this is my 1st post... I have a 2005 4-dr Civic Hybrid (was a bit of a hand-me-down) and I'm about to upgrade the sound system after Uncle Sam gives me some of my money back. I know that there are a lot of speaker-upgrade threads already but I figured I could maybe get all my answers faster with my own thread. Anyway...

The hybrid I have has pretty much the same body as a 7th gen regular civic, and right now all components of the sound system are stock. My budget is about $600. I plan to get a local shop to install front speakers in the front doors, buy an amp and a single 12" subwoofer and build the enclosure for the sub myself. I eventually plan to replace the head unit as well, but probably not right now. I'd very much appreciate y'all weighing in on these questions:

- what's the best sub for a 4 door civic? Would twin 8" or 10" subs sound better than a single 12"?
- is it safe to buy a used/refurbished amp or subwoofer from Craigslist or Amazon?
- would the factory head unit, which puts out ~18-22 RMS per channel (according to another thread I saw) be too puny to make these 110W front speakers sound good? http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/spr-17s
- the shop that I went to sells exclusively Alpine and Pioneer speakers... I could save $150 by going with Type-S coaxial speakers in the front http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/sps-600/, are the component speakers worth the extra $$$?

Thanks in advance

04 Honda Civic

iTrader: (2)

No point in doing anything until you do the headunit.

SilverStrings

Thanx for the reply... OK the head unit that's in there is obviously weak, but would it be possible to do without replacing it and instead adding a head unit amp, something like the Alpine Power Pack but compatible with the factory head unit ( I dont know if there's a lot out there that's compatible)

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-JmiGKHM...ower-Pack.html

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

factory deck maybe puts out 8-10w rms per channel if i remember. most aftermarket decks are 18-22w rms. if you go with those alpines, a good 4 channel amp is pretty much required, and it better be close to 100w rms per channel. i would say having separate tweeters up front really enhances the sound stage. as for sub, it depends on your install and how loud you want. i started off with two 10 inch infinity subs, then went down to one and got it sounding almost as loud as two. finally just ditched the sub and worked on the speaker setup.

SilverStrings

Thanks. I think I'm gonna start with the Alpine component speakers and the 4-channel amp for them. I will probably wait to get the sub(s) put in because building the enclosure will take a good amount of time and I wanna get the front speakers wired now

I also think I'm gonna order the speakers/ amp off Amazon because the guy in the shop said $250 for the Alpines plus $100 for installation but Amazon has the same speakers for $125 plus shipping.

If I show up to an installer's with my speakers and amp, what's a fair installation price?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

depends how good of a job he does lol. installing front and rear speakers isnt too hard, maybe an hour. amp wiring takes longer because alot of the interior needs to come apart to run the wiring. its a long process and prolly will take a few hrs.

SilverStrings

Ha ok. I'm going to call around, hopefully a shop that seems decent will be able to do it all for < $150, $200 at most

Does anyone have experience with paying a shop just for installation, and if so how much did you end up forking over?

It's painful paying hundreds of $$ for something I could possibly do myself after watching enough YouTube videos on the subject

electric130

iTrader: (44)

around here its about $40-50 per hour of labor. click the link in my sig. doing the door speakers is easy.

SilverStrings

UPDATE: Despite all the research done on amps and component speakers I ended up replacing the head unit. The installer basically was in agreement with the first guy who responded, that there's no point in doing anything until you get a decent head unit. He would've installed the amp and speakers I had picked out for only $225 + $100 for "good cables"... I was like **** it, just do the head unit for $395 w/ installation ( + $40 for Ipod cable).

The unit is a Pioneer 7100bt and I love it because it gets along with my Ipod really well. I was also really impressed with how the factory speakers sound now. I didn't think they could sound this good. In the future I'd love to add an amp + component speakers up front + subwoofer and at least now that stuff will be easier to add because of the preamp outputs from the Pioneer.

My installer seems to mainly work on cars MUCH more expensive than mine. He only has faith in FOCAL speakers and amps and told me that replacing my factory speakers with Alpines would be a waste of time... I dunno, I'll re-evaluate that when I have some more money to put towards the system

electric130

iTrader: (44)

Alpine's would definitely NOT be a waste of time. hell, even cheap Infinity Reference would be worth your time compared to stock. trust me, i've done it!

SilverStrings

yea, I figured that my installer was partial to FOCAL because the people who own the BMWs sitting at the shop like audio systems that cost 5 grand... FOCAL does give a 3 year warranty on everything though which is a good touch

what I'm wondering is, what's the range of the factory speakers on the civic? I have a 7-band equalizer in the head unit and I turned down the lowest bar and the 2 highest ones because I noticed hissing and stuff with the highs.

I'm also wondering how Alpine coaxials would sound with the new head unit (w/o an additional amp) and how much they would increase the range of the music... these speakers for instance http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/sps-600

electric130

iTrader: (44)

well, think about it from the shop's perspective. if you're asking for recommendations, they're going to sell you what they think is the best cause they'll make more money. i drive a BMW 330i now, and i'm not buying focal. in my civic, i had infinity reference CS6010's up front on a pioneer head unit and JL Audio C2 6.5's in the rear on the hu. neither were amped besides the hu and it sounded great. my sub was the only thing amp'ed. in my 330, i'm doing JL C2 components up front and C2 coax's in the rear on a 4 channel JL G4500. for subs i've got 2JL 6w3's. it's crazy what these tiny 6.5" subs can put out! i like JL obvioulsy, but you can't go wrong with alpine.

SilverStrings

Thanx for the replies electric. So here's what's interesting: you said that you had these 2 sets of speakers running off a Pioneer head unit:
http://alatest.co.uk/reviews/car-spe...,138/#overview
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_c...hp?comp_id=503

The Infinity says 90W RMS in the description and the JL says Continuous Power Handling: 60 W, Rec. Power Range 15-100 W. A Pioneer hu, from what I understand, will put out ~ 22-25W RMS per channel. You said that these speakers sounded great without an amp, which can only lead to the conclusion that the Wattage numbers in the speaker descriptions don't mean **** (otherwise Infinity speakers would not produce any sound without that 90W RMS). I really don't know why they even put the Wattage numbers there... Maybe to confuse people like me who are fairly new to all this... I guess that it's good news though, I think I'll order me some Coaxials for the front for now, them maybe move them to the back after I can shell out the $$ for decent components

electric130

iTrader: (44)

they sounded great compared to stock, but they would have sounded better on an amp. if you want good bass response out of them, then you'll need an amp. i had a JL 10w6 sub, so the 6.5's didn't need to produce bass for me.

also, i started out with coax's in the doors, but wasn't happy with them. the highs weren't that much better than stock. the only way i got clean highs was with components. even the alpine type S ($140 at best buy) would sound great. the highs on coax's were affected by where my leg was. if i moved it away from the speakers while driving, then it sounded decent. but just in normal driving position, my leg blocked too many highs for my liking.

electric130

iTrader: (44)

they sounded great compared to stock, but they would have sounded better on an amp. if you want good bass response out of them, then you'll need an amp. i had a JL 10w6 sub, so the 6.5's didn't need to produce bass for me.

also, i started out with coax's in the doors, but wasn't happy with them. the highs weren't that much better than stock. the only way i got clean highs was with components. even the alpine type S ($140 at best buy) would sound great. the highs on coax's were affected by where my leg was. if i moved it away from the speakers while driving, then it sounded decent. but just in normal driving position, my leg blocked too many highs for my liking.

SilverStrings

hmm I guess that makes sense. Eventually I want to add front components and a sub, and possibly have them driven by the same amp. This is what the installer suggested, he had a Focal amp that was 4x80 watts RMS for $375 and he said that it could drive the components and also a sub if 2 channels were bridged. He also said that an Alpine or Pioneer amp that claims to produce that much power would really produce much less... he really, really likes Focal... Anyway I'm not going to be doing that amp/components/subwoofer upgrade right now, I'll save up for it

For now I think I'll just get some affordable coaxials and install them in the doors myself, it would be a fun project, and I can just move 'em to the back when I'm ready to do the components

electric130

iTrader: (44)

if you're gonna do components eventually, i wouldn't waste very much money on coax's. just buy the cheapest thing you can find at walmart or something. changing the rear speakers didn't do much for me.

LVSL3PR

TRUE
: WRONG

Ok look here's the deal. All speakers will sound best if powered to the proper specifications. with that being said, understand that by amplifying door speakers it will actually make your mids and highs louder and potentially more clear; provided that you keep the gain down on the amp. Most good amps, this includes alpine, that are designed for door speakers will have full range and HPF settings. High Pass Filters, cut off the sound level at which they will send to the speaker effectively turning off the bass of those speakers. great if you have a sub. not so good if you don't.
Now on to a few of the other things you were talking about.
Components > Coaxials
-It sets a better sound stage for clearer and better sound reproduction.
-Components come with whats called a crossover that seperate the sound into given frequencies that each piece are designed to replicate. ie, tweeter, and mid-bass driver.

Focal = better than any alpine or pioneer There is a reason why Focal has won best sound at SEMA for so many years.
Focal also = not cheap

I have a set of Focal polyglass 2-way components ~ $650 that are by far the best sounding speakers I have ever had. They are well worth the money, however keep in mind that the better speakers are designed to be amplified and that adds to the cost.

I am in no way saying that alpine or pioneer are bad brands as I actually run both or their products in my car as well, its just a matter of how much you want to spend.

Typical install charges are as follows with no special custom fab work or additional pieces.
front speakers: 90
front components: 180
rear speakers: 65
Amp and Sub Combo : 125
4ch Amp to all 4 door speakers: 200
Head unit: free with purchase
Indash and or Navi: 250+

I don't think that these prices are really fair for what is being performed in some cases however, that is about what reputable shops charge, if I remember clearly.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

No speaker set is worth 650 dollars.. NONE... All it does is produce sound in your car, and there are an infinite amount of ways to use that money better. So unless you have money coming out of your ***, it's not worth the money. The markup on this **** is unbelievable and companies make me sick.

He never said you wouldn't get clearer highs with an amp as well.. But he is right, you DO get better bass response with an amp, along with better highs. So he really isn't wrong.

Sorry, a bit irritated at this point.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

AND lets not forget that most good amps (if not all amps) let you control any type of sound filter they may have. you make it sound like the amp forces you to cut out lower frequencies which is not true. ive been running cheap infinity reference speakers and a cheap alpine amp (30w per channel) for over 8 yrs and there is no comparison to just running off deck power. the amp gives them so much bass, people have asked if i was running a sub. its enough to shake the outside mirrors at higher volumes. when i had them running off deck power, the bass was more disappointing than with stock speakers. as far as running expensive speakers, ive listened to $1000 speakers with an average install and $100 speakers with an awesome install and let me tell you, i picked the $100 speakers as being better whatever they were they wouldnt tell us. prolly some low level infinity or pioneers. dont put all your faith in an expensive speaker, throw it in a hole, and expect great sound. install is 90% of the end result.

electric130

iTrader: (44)

nuff said!

LVSL3PR

I never said Install isn't important. It is and it happens to be that with most components they actually allow for tweeter sound stage correction based on where the tweeter is located in relation to the midbass driver; thus proving the point that a good install can go along way.
Now on to more pressing matters.
@Gearbox: If you put your hand in front of your speakers does it reduce the bass? In FULL RANGE sound production with an amp or not you should get any frequency from 1hz to about 23kHz right? Sooo with that assumption and lets just use the JL speakers mentioned above. Why would you want to send 20hz - 59hz frequency to that speaker or set of speakers?
If I'm not mistaken that does qualify as audible range, and yet it is out of replication range of those speakers specifications (59hz - 22khz), thereby meaning that you are sending signal to the speakers that it cannot reproduce efficiently thereby causing distortion aka THD. Now if you are any sort of audiofile, you will know that distortion is the fastest way to blow speakers, so where is the smarts in forcing speakers to do things they were not designed to do?

If you decide to do any research about Focal you would understand that 650 is very reasonable compared to there Be series at about $2300. As for the previous post, I never said that the money could be used some place better, however if you plan on buying quality, do it right the first time.

Again Excellent Quality = NOT CHEAP.

04 Honda Civic

iTrader: (2)

I too upgraded my headunit on stock speakers, and they sounded really good too for awhile. But you really push the stock speakers on an aftermarket headunit like that. Eventually they start ****ing up. I had the Avic 90bt headunit for about a year or so now and the speakers sound like ****. Any recommendations on new speakers. lol

LVSL3PR

Which speakers? Fronts? Rears? Both? Do you want Components? How much do you want to spend? Are you planning on getting a 4ch. amp to power them now or eventually?