Bires

iTrader: (1)

I wanted to add another layer to my front floors and trunk wheel wells, so:

I searched around the net (and ebay) for the best prices on non-Dynamat products. I excluded Brown Bread and Dynamat Extreme because of cost. Also, I could not find Peal-n-Seal locally, just similar product called “Weather Protect”. Here’s what I found (4-10-05):

EDead (v1.0)
Type: Asphalt-based with an aluminum layer
Thickness: 45 mils
Cost:
$130 shipped for 120 square feet
$70 shipped for 60 square feet (on sale on ebay)

Final Analysis:
5400 mil*square feet / $130 = 41.5 / $ shipped
3150 mil*square feet / $70 = 38.6 / $ shipped

Raammat (60BXT)
Type: Butyl-rubber, non-asphalt-based with an aluminum layer
Thickness: 60 mils
Cost:
$110-$120 shipped for 64 square feet (in CA or NV, shipping is $10)

Final Analysis:
3780 mil*square feet / $110 = 34.4 / $ shipped

Fatmat
Type: Asphalt-based with an aluminum layer
Thickness: 45 mils
Cost:
$130 shipped for 100 square feet (but they throw in a roller and Fat-scrub metal cleaner)

Final Analysis:
4500 mil*square feet / $130 = 34.6 / $ shipped (but remember they throw in a roller)

Hardware-store peal-n-seal knock off
Type: Asphalt-based with a thin vinyl layer (this concerned me-will it bleed and stain the carpet? It’s intended to be used under construction panels, roof tiles, and shingles.)
Thickness: 25 mils
Cost:
$23 (at store w/ tax) for 36 square feet

Final Analysis
900 mil*square feet / $23 = 39.1 / $ shipped (but see concern above)

If someone finds a better deal (THAT WE CAN ALL GET-not just you because you know a guy) please add it to this thread and I’ll update the calculations. Thanks.

I would argue that Raammat is a superior product since it’s not asphalt-based, but this is the only mat I have actually used. It works great. I ordered a roll of edead, partially for testing purposes (to compare to Raammat), since it had the best value.

thoughthard

iTrader: (1)

http://www.partsexpress.com

Dayton Audio SOUND DEADENING SHEET 10"x10", Thickness: .070"
Price: $2.25 EA (1-9)
Quantity Price: $1.85 EA (10+)

Dayton Audio SOUND DEADENING SHEET 29"x32", Thickness: .070"
Price: $15.90 EA (1-3)
Quantity Price: $14.25 EA (4+)

Dayton Audio SOUND DEADENING SHEET 32"x54", Thickness: .070"
Price: $21.50 EA (1-3)
Quantity Price: $19.80 EA (4+)

Those prices do not include shipping.

Bires

iTrader: (1)

70 mils is nice, like eDeadSE.

At that price, without shipping, the best price (larger mat) is 39.1 mil*square foot / $.

swkfilms

would that peel and seal work maybe on the floor of the trunk? is that asphalt basing really a bad thing? I took out my spare and made a box into the floor so no one will ever see the bottom of my trunk and i was thinking this might be cheap and easy.

eye_see_you

iTrader: (13)

brown bread 100 sqft 199.00on ebay

Bires

iTrader: (1)

nothing wrong with asphalt-based mats, as long as you realize that it will give off tar-like smell and carbon monoxide for a while when it's hot.

I would only use Peal-n-Seal on the floor/trunk, because its adhesive is not good enough to use on a vertical surface, but many guys swear by the stuff and use it everywhere.

Ocelaris

wow, you guys need a learning on asphault sheeting... I don't know where you got that nonsense that it smells or gives of carbon monoxide... that's just insane.

Read the sticky, it's all made in the EXACT SAME PLANT IN OHIO! I have gotten 100 square feet of the Grace, Ice and Water guard for 30$ picked up. that's .30$ a square foot.

The ONLY thing you use any of these mats for is WEIGHT, there is no special properties at all inherent in them.

Grace Ice and Water Guard from their site:

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/.../GIWS-060I.pdf


Thickness, Membrane 1.02 mm (40 mil)

Material Weight Installed (max) 1.3 kg/m2 (0.3 lb/ft2)

you do the math, at .30$ per square foot @ 40 mil, that's like 120mil per 1$

Roofing supply store carry them, you will have to search a little bit harder HOME DEPOT OR LOWES does not count as searching hard.

/rant off I appreciate the comparisons, but unless you got money to toss into the wind, read my pages and pages of exortations on asphault sheeting...

The Peel and stick stuff I got from home depot last week was 20$ for like 30 square feet, and that stuff was grace vycor, not as thick as ice and water guard, but it was absolutely sticky as hell, use a heat gun if you are not convinced.

I put grace ice and water guard on 2 years ago, and just tore into my car's interior again last week...








Wish I had pics of the roof, hatch, sides, etc... not a single place is it coming off, it stays put, it will attack your hand if you accidentily touch an exposed surface. It's some of the stickiest, hardest to get off you stuff I have ever dealt with.

Bires

iTrader: (1)

I'm not going to argue with you, but they are not the same. Edead is made in house. So is Raammat. I've spoken to the guys at Raamaudio that make the stuff. (of course, Raamat is not asphault-based; it's butyl-rubber based)

Also, eDead and Fatmat are 45mils, not 40 mils as your Ice and Water Guard is. Additionally, the adhesive on eDead and Raammat is a much better adhesive than the Ice and Water guard. Have you actually used it before? I have not used IAWG, but I have played with it at hardware stores, and it's backing is not anything like the Al sheeting that premium mats use.

Finally, "jute" is not fibrous carpet padding-the stuff you are putting in your car, but you are welcome to keep calling it that...it's just incorrect.

A natural cellulosic fiber made form certain plants of the linden family which grow in warm climates such as found in India and Bangladesh. Jute yarns are used for woven carpet construction (backing) yarns and twine. Woven jute fabrics are used in tufted carpet as primary and secondary carpet backing. The latter are similar to burlap fabrics commonly used for carpet wrap and sewn burlap bags.

Jute is technically the fibrous stuff that carpet is glue/woven too. You have high density fiber composite carpet padding.


btw: I'm a chemist by trade, and as asphalt cures, it DOES give off a smell and some CO

Ocelaris

Ok, let's get some #s going here.


Your concerns with Grace, Ice and Water Guard: MIL thickness, adhesion. I will also add weight to the mix. because that is the only thing that matters. In home audio speaker building they use lead sheets and MDF because it is very heavy, the heavier the weight, the lower the resonance frequency.

For your referenc, 1 mil equals 0.001 inch, or 5mil = .005 inches Guess the difference in size... very small. But of course mil thickness doesn't matter, because weight is the key.

Material Weight Installed (max) 1.3 kg/m2 (0.3 lb/ft2) From same source as above.

Now besides that Raamaudio doesn't publish the weight of the material, which tends to make people without knowledge of the way in which mass loading operates (that is what it's called in acuoustical terms). Assuming the material weighs the same pound per pound, and I am giving Raamat a benefit since if it is as you say butyl rubber, it is much lighter.

Raamat is 60mil, or 1.33333 times the thickness, and we're going to assume weight. Raamat is 130$ for 62.5 square feet + shipping. We'll be generous and assume 15$ for that roll. so 145$ for 62.5 square feet. or 2.32$ per square foot... now because Raamat is 1.3 per square foot more effective (making blatent generous assumptions because they do not specify) We divide that by 1.3 to get 1.74/square foot effective in terms of Ice and water guard...

Now Ice and water guard is .30$ per square foot at a local ROOFING supply, you have not seen it at lowes or home depot I gaurantee you, and they certainly did not let you open the sealed carboard container to play with it at a roofing supply store.

At .30$ per square foot you could have almost 6 layers of Ice and water guard, totalling 240 mil, versus raamat's 60 mil...

Now let's talk adhesion. I've used on every surface of my vehicle. But let's talk #s, here is the Grace, Ice and Water Guard spec

Adhesion to Plywood 525 N/m (3.0 lbs/in. width)

that's from the same source:

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/.../GIWS-060I.pdf

What does 3 pounds per inch mean? well, let's make that a foot, that's 36 pounds per inch strip. Now let's make that a square foot, about the size of your monitor, that's 432 pounds per square foot of force that you would need to exert to remove a piece of Ice and Water Guard from the surface of a piece of plywood... ok we'll be generous, even on metal say it's HALF that... that's still 216 pounds of force, the equivalent of lifting an average 6'2" person off of the ground...

hmm... lifting a full grown man is generously equivalent to pulling a square sheet of Ice and Water Guard off of your doors...

Ok, so you don't like Asphault based products, even though they weight more per square foot... try some Grace "Ultra" which is a butyl based product.




Thickness, Membrane 30 mil (0.76 mm)
Material Weight Installed (Max) 0.22 lb/ft2 (1.1 kg/m2)
Adhesion to Plywood 3.0 lbs/in. width (525 N/m)

The Grace Ultra was the same price as the Grace, Ice and Water Guard when I went to get some, but as the Ice and Water Guard is heavier, I got the Ice and Water Guard.

So again let's compare it to Raamat, which is 60mil, but because it's butyl, same density, but the Grace Ultra was half as thick, so we will have to multiply it's cost by 2 to get a fair figure.

30$ for 100 square feet, .30$ per sqaure foot, but compared to the Raamat, it's .60$/square foot. At 1.75$ a square foot for the raamat, you still could do 3 times the thickness, or 180 mil thickness of the Grace Ultra for the same cost as Raamat.

So Grace Ice and water guard you could do 6 times the thickness of raamat, and Grace ultra you could do 3 times the thickness all for the same price...


Gee Wonder which one I would go with.

So you're saying this small little company Raamaudio, Fatmat audio, Dynamat incorporated... they all get the raw materials, i.e. refined oil byproducts, rubber etc... and they personally have the million dollar machines to dole out this stuff by the truckloads to small time hobbyist car audio people like us...


Hmmm... Sounds to me like Grace Company which is an international behemoth probably has the materials and capital to produce this stuff, but somehow a website like raamaudio without even the weight of the product... just doesn't sound to me like they make the stuff in house. Maybe they put their stickers on it, like lots of companies do, fatmaat, dynamat etc... but no, I don't for a second believe that raamaudio manufactures the stuff when there are 10 other little or no name companies who are selling the same exact stuff.

Ed

iTrader: (6)

Where in ohio did you get it, I'm from Ohio, and will be driving through soon too. A link would be awesome too, thanks!

Ed

Bires

iTrader: (1)

Like I said. I'm not going to argue with you. Thanks for the math lessons, I'm sure everyone one the site will enjoy the read.

I like eDead and Raammat. I've had good experience with them and I'm willing to pay their prices because they work well and have good customer service. I'm glad you are happy with IAWG. I won't argue with you about it's merits. I don't care which is better or best. I was just posting what I found in my experience to work and their costs.

For everyone's benefit, $60sqft of Raammat only cost me $110 shipped, but your mileage may vary.

So, Ocelaris, since this is an internet board, where can we buy IAWG at 30 cents a square foot?

Ocelaris

Oh yeah, thought I'd show you a little something...





Guess what the dark patches are... yup you guessed it, asphault based sheeting placed there by honda themselves. And I've opened up a Lexus, same stuff... And I'm not a chemist by trade, but it seems to me, if the company building the vehicle has it in there... make the connection.

There aren't any real tricks to this stuff, but there are a million voodoo doll and snake potion people out there to sell you the magic that will make your car sound better.

If you're not using some sort of sound absorption material such as what is colloquially called "jute" in the carpet industry... I'm not even going to take you seriously.





Those are pictures of "high density fiber composite carpet padding" that honda placed in my vehicle, behind the plastic panels, and below the carpet. You can see the "high density fiber composite carpet padding" that I placed beside it...

Any sort of mass loading does almost nothing for high pitched frequency absorption, i.e. anything > 100hz.

The only thing that mass loading (asphault or butyl based sheeting) DOES DO, is if your panels resonante with bass, they will make the sound resonante LOWER, not go away, there is no magic, you have to keep adding and adding and adding until the frequency is low enough <10hz or something, so that the energy required to vibrate it, is not enough.

read the sticky, or at least give me the benefit of the doubt that I've done ALOT of research into this, and posted pages and pages of this same arguement.

There absolutely IS a cheaper generic way to do the mass loading.

There absolutely is no difference in the results between asphault and butyl sheeting, as long as the same weight is used.

asphault or butyl based sheeting is Only good for mass loading.

Ocelaris

Guys, I'm not here to argue either... If you read any of the sticky, I have fought over some ridiculous stuff, and have done my share, and would be happy to be done fighting over this crap.

I got my stuff from a local supply house near bethesda maryland, my best friend was going to American University, and lived in the building next to it, so I was aware of it's presence. The Key here, is that 99% of the world goes on without being mentioned on the internet, that's what you pay for, convenience. If you wanted 7-11 to carry dynamat, then you'd probably pay 3x as much, if you want to order it online, you're going to pay alot more than if you know the commercial uses for something.

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/

find a contact for yourselves, or if you don't believe me, look for "roofing" in bethesda, Maryland in the yellow pages.

Bires

iTrader: (1)

You seem to continue to misunderstand. I have nothing against asphalt-based sheeting. I have more than 200 square feet of edead in my car. Also, I have more than 300 square feet of Home Depot's Berberesques, epoxied on top of that, onto the side panels, in the nooks and crannies, and under the eDead in the doors.

The reason I opened up this thread was so people could gauge the merits/costs of sound deadening. To that end, I did some research based on what people can get...to be helpful. You seemed to bash all the branded stuff because you thought we are idiots for throwing our money away. That's why I asked you for a location at your prices. I very much doubt there are a lot of us on the board near your supplier. Comparing globally-available prices with I-know-a-place/guy prices is comparing apples and oranges.

J187

Ha, I was wondering where I might be able to find some around my area. Then I looked. Looks like Grace Construction is located 3 minutes away from where I sit in Cambridge, MA.

Is the stuff you are talking about Ice and Water "Shield" maybe?