Why so loud?
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Why so loud?
My amp is 300 watts rms and only my sub is amped. My stereo can get plenty loud - I leave the volume on like 10 or 11 out of 50. Why do people get like 1000 watt rms setups? That would freaking destory my ears.
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Rep Power: 0 Basicly a 1000W amp will only raise the volume by 6db max compared to a 300W amp. My understanding is that one reason for getting a larger amp is that you get a cleaner signal because you can turn down the gains.
i boogie for the raindrops
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From: Jackson, Mississippi
Rep Power: 0 some people just like loud things,
but
some of us like something which is called overhead
think of driving
now lets say you like to drive at 100 mph constantly
would a car that tops out at 112 (civic lx sedan, like mine)
or lets say a porsche which can top out at 185
do it safer, smoother, cleaner, and with less issues.
an amplifiers levels of distortion are directly proportional to their power output. as more power is output, more distortion is output. so if i have an amp that puts out 75 watts for a mid in the door, vs an amp that puts out 250 watts, the one that puts out 250 will do massively less distortion at 75 watts, and it will have more dynamic headroom: (if you listen to it on max, and lets say you have a song with a lot of peaks, the one that puts out 250 will have that extra power there for you to use when needed, kinda like that extra power there on the porsche for changing lanes in a situation where you need to speed up quickly)
my gain ***** on my amps stay near zero, they NEVER overheat, and i never strain for power, and im sure the distortion levels are very low
also, lets say one day i feel like just blasting it nasty style, i have that ability
but
some of us like something which is called overhead
think of driving
now lets say you like to drive at 100 mph constantly
would a car that tops out at 112 (civic lx sedan, like mine)
or lets say a porsche which can top out at 185
do it safer, smoother, cleaner, and with less issues.
an amplifiers levels of distortion are directly proportional to their power output. as more power is output, more distortion is output. so if i have an amp that puts out 75 watts for a mid in the door, vs an amp that puts out 250 watts, the one that puts out 250 will do massively less distortion at 75 watts, and it will have more dynamic headroom: (if you listen to it on max, and lets say you have a song with a lot of peaks, the one that puts out 250 will have that extra power there for you to use when needed, kinda like that extra power there on the porsche for changing lanes in a situation where you need to speed up quickly)
my gain ***** on my amps stay near zero, they NEVER overheat, and i never strain for power, and im sure the distortion levels are very low
also, lets say one day i feel like just blasting it nasty style, i have that ability
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From: Chicago Burbs, Other, ZEBRA
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However, doesn't where that 6db is make a difference? Isn't going from 10 to 16db a lot less intense than going from 100 to 106? Cuz I know The decibel scale is logarithmic; each 10-decibel increase represents a tenfold increase in noise intensity. . So I don't think you can necessarily say it "only" raises it by 6db. Using 10 instead of 6, because it's easier, would indeed mean that 20 is ten times more intense than 10db, and that 110 is ten times more intense than 100. So it's not linear.
However, doesn't where that 6db is make a difference? Isn't going from 10 to 16db a lot less intense than going from 100 to 106? Cuz I know The decibel scale is logarithmic; each 10-decibel increase represents a tenfold increase in noise intensity. . So I don't think you can necessarily say it "only" raises it by 6db. Using 10 instead of 6, because it's easier, would indeed mean that 20 is ten times more intense than 10db, and that 110 is ten times more intense than 100. So it's not linear.
Last edited by IronFist; Oct 24, 2004 at 04:23 PM.
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From: MA
Rep Power: 310 good analogy Lud. I would imaging that just about anyone can understand the porsche and the civic.
I think it's worth pointing out also, that this only applies to Amps that do indeed provide large amounts of power cleanly. Otherwise, some may interpret that you can get 800 really clean watts out of that 2000 watt, expo-center bargain amp that you pay $39.99 for. Nonetheless, well put.
I think it's worth pointing out also, that this only applies to Amps that do indeed provide large amounts of power cleanly. Otherwise, some may interpret that you can get 800 really clean watts out of that 2000 watt, expo-center bargain amp that you pay $39.99 for. Nonetheless, well put.
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Rep Power: 786 a gain of 10db is perceived as being twice as loud.
3db is gained from doubling power. a 1000w amp would gain ABOUT 10-11 db over a 300w amp at full power.
other than that, ludlam nailed the answer to your question right on. more power = you can listen as loud with much less distortion = better sound
3db is gained from doubling power. a 1000w amp would gain ABOUT 10-11 db over a 300w amp at full power.
other than that, ludlam nailed the answer to your question right on. more power = you can listen as loud with much less distortion = better sound
i boogie for the raindrops
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From: Jackson, Mississippi
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Originally Posted by MegaHurtz
a gain of 10db is perceived as being twice as loud.
3db is gained from doubling power. a 1000w amp would gain ABOUT 10-11 db over a 300w amp at full power.
other than that, ludlam nailed the answer to your question right on. more power = you can listen as loud with much less distortion = better sound
3db is gained from doubling power. a 1000w amp would gain ABOUT 10-11 db over a 300w amp at full power.
other than that, ludlam nailed the answer to your question right on. more power = you can listen as loud with much less distortion = better sound
assume 120 db @ 300 w, then 123@ 600, 126 @ 1200
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Originally Posted by IronFist
My amp is 300 watts rms and only my sub is amped. My stereo can get plenty loud - I leave the volume on like 10 or 11 out of 50. Why do people get like 1000 watt rms setups? That would freaking destory my ears.
Headroom on an amp is nice ....
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When I study electronics and control systems, I have a conclusion:
There's no need for an amp that outputs more than the RMS of a set of speakers....
Example, running 75W RMS amp into 75W RMS speaker is good enough UNLESS you do a lot of eq BOOSTS which will dramatically lower the proportional DC level output of a unit to an amp....
What I mean proportional is that: The 4-volt output is a continous time domain function. If some places rises, the overall amplitude of the sine wave rises also. Remember that all frequency is to follow the same path---lowest level that can be output by the HU, after active crossover. That's why you may get a clipping signal at 2.75-Volt when you boost, say, 80Hz.
If you are running flat, or running eq CUTS, then a high output amp doesn't make any sense....
Example::
A 4-volt input capable amp, match with a 4-volt output capable HU, running FLAT, it will reach to a point where the HU output is 4-volt....A 75W amp will output 75W at that point without distortion(except THD).....
However, If I am running 150W amp, driving 75W speaker, FLAT, I will reach 75W when the amp is receiving 2-Volt signal....2 things can happen:
1. You induce noise into the system due to the fact that optimal S/N ratio is not reached. By default, S/N ratio is calculated from RMS output. Having lower input level will cause the rest of the signal gap become noise.
2. You risk overheating the speakers.
There's no need for an amp that outputs more than the RMS of a set of speakers....
Example, running 75W RMS amp into 75W RMS speaker is good enough UNLESS you do a lot of eq BOOSTS which will dramatically lower the proportional DC level output of a unit to an amp....
What I mean proportional is that: The 4-volt output is a continous time domain function. If some places rises, the overall amplitude of the sine wave rises also. Remember that all frequency is to follow the same path---lowest level that can be output by the HU, after active crossover. That's why you may get a clipping signal at 2.75-Volt when you boost, say, 80Hz.
If you are running flat, or running eq CUTS, then a high output amp doesn't make any sense....
Example::
A 4-volt input capable amp, match with a 4-volt output capable HU, running FLAT, it will reach to a point where the HU output is 4-volt....A 75W amp will output 75W at that point without distortion(except THD).....
However, If I am running 150W amp, driving 75W speaker, FLAT, I will reach 75W when the amp is receiving 2-Volt signal....2 things can happen:
1. You induce noise into the system due to the fact that optimal S/N ratio is not reached. By default, S/N ratio is calculated from RMS output. Having lower input level will cause the rest of the signal gap become noise.
2. You risk overheating the speakers.
Last edited by 82801BA; Nov 14, 2004 at 04:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by LudlamTheory
some people just like loud things,
but
some of us like something which is called overhead
think of driving
now lets say you like to drive at 100 mph constantly
would a car that tops out at 112 (civic lx sedan, like mine)
or lets say a porsche which can top out at 185
do it safer, smoother, cleaner, and with less issues.
an amplifiers levels of distortion are directly proportional to their power output. as more power is output, more distortion is output. so if i have an amp that puts out 75 watts for a mid in the door, vs an amp that puts out 250 watts, the one that puts out 250 will do massively less distortion at 75 watts, and it will have more dynamic headroom: (if you listen to it on max, and lets say you have a song with a lot of peaks, the one that puts out 250 will have that extra power there for you to use when needed, kinda like that extra power there on the porsche for changing lanes in a situation where you need to speed up quickly)
my gain ***** on my amps stay near zero, they NEVER overheat, and i never strain for power, and im sure the distortion levels are very low
also, lets say one day i feel like just blasting it nasty style, i have that ability
but
some of us like something which is called overhead
think of driving
now lets say you like to drive at 100 mph constantly
would a car that tops out at 112 (civic lx sedan, like mine)
or lets say a porsche which can top out at 185
do it safer, smoother, cleaner, and with less issues.
an amplifiers levels of distortion are directly proportional to their power output. as more power is output, more distortion is output. so if i have an amp that puts out 75 watts for a mid in the door, vs an amp that puts out 250 watts, the one that puts out 250 will do massively less distortion at 75 watts, and it will have more dynamic headroom: (if you listen to it on max, and lets say you have a song with a lot of peaks, the one that puts out 250 will have that extra power there for you to use when needed, kinda like that extra power there on the porsche for changing lanes in a situation where you need to speed up quickly)
my gain ***** on my amps stay near zero, they NEVER overheat, and i never strain for power, and im sure the distortion levels are very low
also, lets say one day i feel like just blasting it nasty style, i have that ability
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From: Austin, TX
Rep Power: 0 Hey man.....don't be crazy about that....
In contrast to under-power, which will result in clipping when it is driven over its limit, over-powering does not give you a warning, prior to frying your voice coil....
Use the same concept:
Now lets say you like to drive at 100 mph constantly
You know that driving a Civic that tops out at 112, and a Porsche can top out at 185
But you will never know when a car will turn back to against you when you are at that speed...Either case you will die anyway, but a Porcshe gives you a "safer" sense doesn't make any sense, only makes your driving style worse...
As long as power in concern, a 75-watt amp driving a 75-watt speaker that has even the lowest sensitivity, say, 86dB/W-m, when the amp is driving properly, I really mean PROPERLY, will give you about a power of 6(2^6), which is 18 dB more than 1 watt, equals 104 dB.....Are you sure you want to listen to something 104 dB all day long and all year long? Your ear will deterorate quickly and you will be one of the person sitting without any sound around....
I have 200W system driven by 225W amp, at HU level 22~24(out of 35, 5V non-clipping output) running a 2 dB boost(1 step up) at 150Hz without any MX(I have Alpine HU), guess it's around 2.5V, it's almost loud enough for most application. Not to mention about IASCA disc, which is recorded a lot softer than most CD....But I still reach 113 dB at level 28 on that set up(didn't account for the bass)....
Think smart, do smart....
In contrast to under-power, which will result in clipping when it is driven over its limit, over-powering does not give you a warning, prior to frying your voice coil....
Use the same concept:
Now lets say you like to drive at 100 mph constantly
You know that driving a Civic that tops out at 112, and a Porsche can top out at 185
But you will never know when a car will turn back to against you when you are at that speed...Either case you will die anyway, but a Porcshe gives you a "safer" sense doesn't make any sense, only makes your driving style worse...
As long as power in concern, a 75-watt amp driving a 75-watt speaker that has even the lowest sensitivity, say, 86dB/W-m, when the amp is driving properly, I really mean PROPERLY, will give you about a power of 6(2^6), which is 18 dB more than 1 watt, equals 104 dB.....Are you sure you want to listen to something 104 dB all day long and all year long? Your ear will deterorate quickly and you will be one of the person sitting without any sound around....
I have 200W system driven by 225W amp, at HU level 22~24(out of 35, 5V non-clipping output) running a 2 dB boost(1 step up) at 150Hz without any MX(I have Alpine HU), guess it's around 2.5V, it's almost loud enough for most application. Not to mention about IASCA disc, which is recorded a lot softer than most CD....But I still reach 113 dB at level 28 on that set up(didn't account for the bass)....
Think smart, do smart....
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Originally Posted by DuYaKnow
So are you saying it's okay to buy an amp that is rated a much higher rms for a set of components or even the subwoofer as long as you set the gains correctly and don't go crazy with the volume ****?
Most people call RMS power "continuous" power. To new guys that is misleading. The amp doesn't put out that much power continuously. The rating means the amp CAN put out that much continuously if it had to.
So if you have a 100 watt amp that does 50 rms. The amp can do 50 watts all day long w/o overheating and distorting. It can also do 100 watts is short bursts for musical peaks. This just gives you an idea of what the amp is capable of.
How many watts the amp actually puts out is a combination of HU preout signal voltage, the amp gain, the volume ****, the ohms of the speaker connected, and the specific music being played. Too many variables to figure things out exactly ....
Most times though the amp is putting out very very little power. If you have a speaker that has a sensetivity of 91db @ 1m w/ 1 watt ..... that means the speaker will be 91db loud when standing 1 meter away when the speaker is powered w/ 1 watt of power. Every doubling of the wattage gives 3 more db in volume. These are all theoretical numbers in a perfect world though of course. Cabin gain, car acoustics, etc will all help or hinder these numbers too ....
1 watt = 91db
2 watts = 94db
4 watts = 97db
8 watts = 100db
16 watts = 103db
32 watts = 106db
64 watts = 109db
128 watts = 112db
256 watts = 115db
512 watts = 118db
im using 800watt rms setup..
and dude, u wanna get louder setup since ur more than welcome to use the lower setup if u got a higher setup...all u gotta do is pushing some buttons....lol...
and if u wanna get loud....again, push the button....
as simple as that. lolz.
and dude, u wanna get louder setup since ur more than welcome to use the lower setup if u got a higher setup...all u gotta do is pushing some buttons....lol...
and if u wanna get loud....again, push the button....
as simple as that. lolz.
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From: Austin, TX
Rep Power: 0 The amp will never CONTINOUSLY output higher that RMS power.
If you think a system is not loud enough, get a bigger amp. But, as I suggest, not over the RMS limits. I burnt several speakers(woofers, not tweets) already because of amp. I was running 150W RMS into 75W RMS and boosted up. No sign of distortion, no clipping(my gain always at minimum, even now 225 RMS into 200). Then the woofer starts to deterorate and later, distorted all time even at very low volume.
If you think a system is not loud enough, most ppl do is to increase the gain, which will later found themselves regreted due to the introduction of clipping into the system. That's all.
If you think a system is not loud enough, get a bigger amp. But, as I suggest, not over the RMS limits. I burnt several speakers(woofers, not tweets) already because of amp. I was running 150W RMS into 75W RMS and boosted up. No sign of distortion, no clipping(my gain always at minimum, even now 225 RMS into 200). Then the woofer starts to deterorate and later, distorted all time even at very low volume.
If you think a system is not loud enough, most ppl do is to increase the gain, which will later found themselves regreted due to the introduction of clipping into the system. That's all.
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From: bay area, california
Rep Power: 337 I like the running theory that ULFW (bass) causes massive damage to the body, and the brain responds by releasing endorphins to combat the "pain" sensors set off. Thus, loud bass gets you high.
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Rep Power: 0 I've been using tons of theory learned from classes instead of actual experience...
Like, I figured out the cut-off frequency on controller is not where the actual frequency cut off, but according to the natual frequency roll off, that point is -3dB...I was so stupid before to think that is the actual cut off frequency...
Next is why changing the woofer's polarity do make more sense...
According to concept, changing one of the woofer's polarity will increase the length of the the specific woofer to make both speaker in phase...
My research on Civic leads me to another point of view...In our cars, the woofer is better reversed to "compete sound reflection" instead of making more virtual distance...Think, it's not actually the phase to make our car's lower range sound null, but it's all the reflections...You hear reflections in both left and right ear...Then your brain will treat that as 2 speakers, one for left and one for right, without giving you a good stereo sense...
Like, I figured out the cut-off frequency on controller is not where the actual frequency cut off, but according to the natual frequency roll off, that point is -3dB...I was so stupid before to think that is the actual cut off frequency...
Next is why changing the woofer's polarity do make more sense...
According to concept, changing one of the woofer's polarity will increase the length of the the specific woofer to make both speaker in phase...
My research on Civic leads me to another point of view...In our cars, the woofer is better reversed to "compete sound reflection" instead of making more virtual distance...Think, it's not actually the phase to make our car's lower range sound null, but it's all the reflections...You hear reflections in both left and right ear...Then your brain will treat that as 2 speakers, one for left and one for right, without giving you a good stereo sense...
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Rep Power: 337 the best phase is whatever sounds best in your particular application. tweeters, mids, midbass, subwoofers, everything. if your system works for you, thats awesome.
I think we need more enthusiasts like you because youve got your woofers tuned with underlap, low enough to accentuate music rather than over blow it. lots of streetbeaters could learn from your tuning methods
I think we need more enthusiasts like you because youve got your woofers tuned with underlap, low enough to accentuate music rather than over blow it. lots of streetbeaters could learn from your tuning methods
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From: Austin, TX
Rep Power: 0 My system is tuned as follow:
Speakers: left input reversed, then tweeter and mid reversed at output end. right input straight, then tweeter and mid reversed at output. That sounds best to me because everytime I put the mid/woofer in phase(in term of XO) I localize the passenger side speaker.
Amp: Speaker amp gain points at minimum, 0 deg phase. Sub amp(Accu-class D) gain sensitivity -12dB. Boost at 50Hz.
HU: +2dB at 180Hz. It helps to bring the sub to the front. Sub phase 180 deg, gives me most bass and right at the center of the stage.
Still, I am waiting to complete my EQ so that I can fight sound reflections. Imagine I have a better sound stage when I roll down the both glasses a little. It may be the most challenging part when building the system.
Speakers: left input reversed, then tweeter and mid reversed at output end. right input straight, then tweeter and mid reversed at output. That sounds best to me because everytime I put the mid/woofer in phase(in term of XO) I localize the passenger side speaker.
Amp: Speaker amp gain points at minimum, 0 deg phase. Sub amp(Accu-class D) gain sensitivity -12dB. Boost at 50Hz.
HU: +2dB at 180Hz. It helps to bring the sub to the front. Sub phase 180 deg, gives me most bass and right at the center of the stage.
Still, I am waiting to complete my EQ so that I can fight sound reflections. Imagine I have a better sound stage when I roll down the both glasses a little. It may be the most challenging part when building the system.
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