WhiteRabbit

<< The SS might not make a diff in performance...but the throws being so long get annoying..hence...why i chopped 2 inches off the top of my revo technica sts...look how low my shifter sits in my member pics...

I just like it cause its only a flick of the wrist...

-g0rd0 >>



preaching to the choir here

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

<< The SS might not make a diff in performance...but the throws being so long get annoying..hence...why i chopped 2 inches off the top of my revo technica sts...look how low my shifter sits in my member pics...

I just like it cause its only a flick of the wrist...

-g0rd0 >>



Hey that's my shifter's height..only I have a small billet alum ****.. I cut my shifter, have the jumosport bushigns and Neuspeed SS Adapter. Tis mighty wicked..

Rabbit..I agree it doesn't help too much because of the clutch..with a performance cluctch and Short shifter..the shifter might make a small difference possible like .02 seconds in the 1/4 mile..

PlatnumBomb

<< preaching to the choir here >>



I don't understand what u mean by this statement...??? I can't really tell what ur trying to say...

WhiteRabbit

my shifter sits at teh same hight as yours and mowhawks. nice to see that im not the only one here "ghetto-rigged"

I love the feel, I love how it looks, I love everything about it! my only claim here that has turned this into pain was the statement that it does not improve performance.

as far as the feel, the look, I agree with EVERYONE here and even with those not here. great thing to do [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

preach to the choir is a saying meaning that the priest does not have to preach to teh choir, they are alreay on his side. we are on teh same side!

Mbow

Well, I still do not see how you say it doesn't increase performance. You said yourself that your buddy saw an improvement in et when the ss was installed.

2nd point: All this business about the clutch is nonsense. It doesn't really pertain to the situation. That is a seperate process that comes after the shifting process is completed. It only makes sense that if you can complete the first process quicker, the second can start sooner, and the process as a whole has been sped up. You are still looking at it like an assembly line. This isn't a constant flowing process. It starts and it ends.

3rd point: You said that a smoothly driven oem car will beat a car with the ss. Why? Are you saying that a car with an ss can't be driven smoothly? If you are so smooth and the God that you say you are, wouldn't the shortened throw allow you to disengage the clutch, shift, and engage sooner? It has to offer some improvement because it must be done before the next can begin. Maybe it is very small, but it is there.

Last: I kinda steered away from the ss argument to prove your theory incorrect and I did that to a T. While I am sure your friend is an expert, he is your friend, and it is only one man's opinion. I am positive that my drag racer friend would agree with my point of view too.

Anyhow, screw this bs. If you would have stepped back and payed attention to why your theory was completely wrong and looked at it from my point point of view, you may have been enlightened. Oh well...If I can find a drag strip, I will run an experiment and post my findings. oh, and sense I am considered a ricer now, I am going to get me a nice big wing and some huge stripes to go down the middle of the car! LOL

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

wheteher it makes a difference or not doesn't really matter because it's VERY minimal..for an all out drag racing car every thousanth of a second counts.. for a daily driven civic..it's a difference that will not be noticable in any way but feel.... If anything I would say the kumosport bushings help quicker shifting than an SS adapter because everything is more solid and it's alot harder to misshift because you feel when the gear is in and it's not being dampened by a rubber bushing. (dragging with our cars second gear is REALLY hard to feel and sometimes doesn't full drop in gear and sticks) With the Kumosport you know when it's in gear. The shorter the shifter may make a difference..

Clutch does become a big factor.. they are both seperate procesess that happen at the same time. Personally when I had the OEM shifter and the short shifter I didn't shift any quicker because of the clutch. by the time the clutch was disengaved I'd be in the next gear anyways..then it was a matter of reingaging the clutch and gassing it without burning the clutch..

With a performance clutch with less clutch pedal throw the shifter miht be a factor..but with the OEM clutch. It takes longer to properly work the clutch than to shift anyways.

So like White rabbit and I on alternators it's a Moot point.. Both of you are right and wrong...For the SS to help with 1/4 times.. a better clutch / shorter throw clutch would be needed for any difference to be made.

Whazaaaam!!!

Mbow

So, we agree that it makes a difference, just a nil one! So, we agree that it increases performance even though it may take a thousand decimal places to measure it. Say it damn't, say it! I'm done. I think my point has been proven. I think whiterabbit proved it for me. ROFLMAO [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG]

WhiteRabbit

I will try to adress everything, point by point, but i dont see why, cause we both won, as we are both right.



<< Well, I still do not see how you say it doesn't increase performance. You said yourself that your buddy saw an improvement in et when the ss was installed. >>



that was with 250 HP, and a ceramic clutch. can you say grabby? also that was an audi S4, and an improvement of a couple hundreths. he also too k teh clutch and power to be a factor, whcih our civics do not have by any means. this is why I can say it does not add performance.



<< 2nd point: All this business about the clutch is nonsense. It doesn't really pertain to the situation. That is a seperate process that comes after the shifting process is completed. It only makes sense that if you can complete the first process quicker, the second can start sooner, and the process as a whole has been sped up. You are still looking at it like an assembly line. This isn't a constant flowing process. It starts and it ends. >>



any process that starts and ends is by definition a flowing process one thing leads to another leads to another. this is why your long post meant di(k to me. it seemed to me that you were contradicting yourself, and it would have been pages to show that. and also, by definition, the process of "shifting" does in fact include the use of a clutch. if you dont agree with me on that one, try shifting gears without it. might run into some difficulties there. [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]



<< 3rd point: You said that a smoothly driven oem car will beat a car with the ss. Why? Are you saying that a car with an ss can't be driven smoothly? If you are so smooth and the God that you say you are, wouldn't the shortened throw allow you to disengage the clutch, shift, and engage sooner? It has to offer some improvement because it must be done before the next can begin. Maybe it is very small, but it is there. >>



i said smooth driven car with an 12 inch stick will beat a poorly driven car with SS. it always always always comes down to the driver. there was a post in general about a civic beating a corvette. switch the drivers, and the "ricer" would have killed the bastard in teh vette, too. why? the vette driver couldnt drive his car worth jack. how this relates to you was how my friend predicted you can "feel" the performance. he predicted it was just you dumping the clutch at 7000 RPMs and the jerk you get would be greater than without teh SS cause you cna get the stick into position faster. gives the "illusion" of being able to go faster, but in fact that kind of driving will lower your ET. and as I have said in teh other post, the difference should be negligible in our cars. if you can drive a SS car smooth, and an identical car smooth without the SS, your times shoud eb identical if you have the same run. this is only if you take driver differences out of the picture. real world, the better driver will take it, every time.



<< Last: I kinda steered away from the ss argument to prove your theory incorrect and I did that to a T. While I am sure your friend is an expert, he is your friend, and it is only one man's opinion. I am positive that my drag racer friend would agree with my point of view too. >>



its not that my theory was incorrect, but thats exactly what it was. theory. I tried to explain why there was no performance bennefit using ricer bs just like you are using ricer bs (along with grey) to prove that it DOES. Wel,, in my post i adress this and it is shown that you are in fact right, but the benefit does not apply for our cars since we have no power to build on and a clutch designed by scotchbrite.



<< Anyhow, screw this bs. If you would have stepped back and payed attention to why your theory was completely wrong and looked at it from my point point of view, you may have been enlightened. Oh well...If I can find a drag strip, I will run an experiment and post my findings. oh, and sense I am considered a ricer now, I am going to get me a nice big wing and some huge stripes to go down the middle of the car! LOL >>



you think your a ricer? wait till i cut my mailbox in half and tack it to my hood [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

seriously tho, i swallowed my pride about my bs, im hoping you and grey will do the same. a great learning experience, was hoping we could share a [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG]. but if you dont wanna go through that, thats fine. we still havent had the resonator argument, maybe that will make you hate me for life =/

but ive done the best i can. you wanna still talk $%^#, go right ahead. but I have proven my point, as far as my friends opinion, its not a matter of opinion anymore, its a matter of fact. for what its worth, if anything anymore.

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

Removing the OEM resonator = no performance increase whatsover.. just sound. It does not increase air flow or reduce air temperature in any way. Save the arguing!

Mbow

hell, I don't know. Let's take a little break before we argue over the resonator topic though.

Ahh screw it, I am a di(k and i know it so here goes! LOL

Yes, it is a process and it does flow. However, the clutch doesn't control everything like the slowest part of an assembly line. On an assembly line if we have stations a,b, c, d, with station c's process taking the longest, than to keep product from building up waiting to go through c, the line must be slowed down to c's pace as a whole.

In the vic, you have the shifting, and the power going out to the wheels. The clutch will only control the whole process when you are shifting at optimum and nothing else can be gained in that process. Does that make any sense? So, my whole point is since we don't have shifts getting back up, if we can speed up process a, it will get to b just a tad sooner, and it will exit b just a tad sooner.

Anyhow, even if it doesn't do anything on the vic, which only the same driver doing et's in the same car, just changing the ss, would have to prove, we agree that it will help, just not necessarily in ever circumstance.

Oh, and arguing is good. It challenges you to think and rethink your position. I think we may have gotten a little nasty, I know i did, but nothing really out of line.

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

This brings a funny quote to mind:

arguing over the internet is like competing in the special olympics. Even if you win, your still a f%$king retard!"

Grey

iTrader: (61)

Bwahahahaha! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

Ooh, I just thought of something! Me and Mbow have our view, WhiteRabbit has his, but notice how each one of us has a short shifter! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

<< Bwahahahaha! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

Ooh, I just thought of something! Me and Mbow have our view, WhiteRabbit has his, but notice how each one of us has a short shifter! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG] >>



We all Love ours..the arguement is feel over performance..

Mbow

<< This brings a funny quote to mind:

arguing over the internet is like competing in the special olympics. Even if you win, your still a f%$king retard!" >>



Sounds like someone has raised a white flag! ROFLMAO! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

No..I'm waiting for the resonator arguement to begin [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

Mbow

<< No..I'm waiting for the resonator arguement to begin [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] >>



I think that is an argument that can only be won on the dyno.

BAK

Ok... I'll throw it out there then. Removing the resonator increases airflow to the engine thus resulting in massive increases in HP.[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

Oh yeah, my rear spoiler also creates downforce on the rear keeping my car glued to the road at very high speeds like 70 mph.

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

<< Ok... I'll throw it out there then. Removing the resonator increases airflow to the engine thus resulting in massive increases in HP.[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

Oh yeah, my rear spoiler also creates downforce on the rear keeping my car glued to the road at very high speeds like 70 mph. >>



For the resonator.. Got proof.... for the spoiler.. technically wouldn;t adding downforce to the rear reduce traction to the front as it would through off front to rear balance on the tires?

Mbow

Let me make sure I am understanding the topic at hand. Are we talking about simply removing the resonator and leaving the stock air box or removing the resonator as in an aftermarket intake? Or both?

Grey

iTrader: (61)

Ahem...

The stock airbox is more restrictive to the flow of air than nothing attached to the throttle body. Imagine attaching a heavy industrial strength filter onto the throttle body. That would be even more restrictive to the flow of air than the stock airbox. Basically what happens is that when the exhaust valves shut and the intake valves open the piston moves down and draws the air in. There's this effect from delayed closing of the exhaust valves that also sucks in fresh air, but this is negligable.

Now imagine totally closing off the throttle body opening at the moment that the piston was about to move down. What would happen? The piston would slow down since it'de be trying to create a vaccum. This is what happens when you put something like a restrictive airbox onto the throttle body. The air itself is sticky and it clings to a surface. Just like a water miniscus. The bigger the surface area leading into the throttle body, the more resistance to the fresh intake of air there is.

[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/IMG]

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

yes..but are you talking the stock airbox that houses the filter..or the resonator (box before the air box that holds the filter)...

Just removing the OEM resonator won't change much expect for sound..

BAK

The rear spoiler was a joke ! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG] I threw it in being a smarta$$ ![IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

As far as the resonator removal. I think our engines are so well tuned it doesn't make a difference. I know my Injen SRI really doesn't make a difference other than taking the middle RPM lag out. I think the motor can only breath so much air, and it's probably been tuned to the max being stock. However with a increase in HP you will need to increase airflow.

Mbow

I don't think the stock configuration is that restrictive to begin with. When my car was stock, I could detect the sound that an intake makes. Not very loud at all, but I could hear it. As far as I know, the resonator is there to mainly reduce the noise level. It has to also provide some restriction. Is it enough restriction that removing it will give you a couple hp? I have no clue.

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

Removing it still elaves the air box with the filter..and past that the waffled rubber pipe.. so I don;t think removing the resonator will do Squat except for sound.

Cheers
Mohawk

WhiteRabbit

most everyone is dead on here, but i gotta adress one thing



<< Ahem...

The stock airbox is more restrictive to the flow of air than nothing attached to the throttle body. Imagine attaching a heavy industrial strength filter onto the throttle body. That would be even more restrictive to the flow of air than the stock airbox. Basically what happens is that when the exhaust valves shut and the intake valves open the piston moves down and draws the air in. There's this effect from delayed closing of the exhaust valves that also sucks in fresh air, but this is negligable.

Now imagine totally closing off the throttle body opening at the moment that the piston was about to move down. What would happen? The piston would slow down since it'de be trying to create a vaccum. This is what happens when you put something like a restrictive airbox onto the throttle body. The air itself is sticky and it clings to a surface. Just like a water miniscus. The bigger the surface area leading into the throttle body, the more resistance to the fresh intake of air there is.

[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/IMG] >>



therefore, I assume that the bigger your intake piping, teh bigger your TB, the bigger your exaust, the more power you make, right? this seems to be what you are implying, correct me if im wong..

man, i bet THIS car must have SO MUCH POWER!



[IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/moon.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

Mbow

ROFL....you never know though. There may be a jet in the trunk or something...LOL

Grey

iTrader: (61)

<< therefore, I assume that the bigger your intake piping, teh bigger your TB, the bigger your exaust, the more power you make, right? this seems to be what you are implying, correct me if im wong.. >>



Yes, you're wong! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

Bigger intake piping and bigger TB have more surface area for the air to cling to; it depends on how big we're talking about though, since after a certain diameter the air inside the middle of the intake will flow past the air that is clinging to the sides of the intake. Exaust is a different issue; we were talking about intakes, remember? [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/IMG]

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

Grey....I still say you guys should make me a mod for all the forums so I can lock threads like this one [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG].. he he he..

Why don't companies just dimple the inner walls of their intakes to reduce air friction...