Mbow

<< [qWith your garage door example, what if I race my neighbor into our garages. I manage to just slip by him and hit the button just a split second quicker. Who is going to get in the garage first? >>



obviously you will. because teh time it takes to drive up the driveway = the shortshifter.

the time when you hit teh button = something else

the time it takes the garage door to open = something else.

I definied this very clearly in my analogy, when i said that no matter how fast you drive up teh driveway, you have to wait for the door to open. therefore, when you hit the button, a "split second sooner" you are making a process faster by which gives you the advantage, but is not the analogus short shifter.

good try tho! keep working at it! sooner or later maybe you guys can stump me [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG] [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/IMG][/i] >>



I was holding everything constant except the time it took to get to the garage. Anyhow, I am leaving to go out of town and wish I could stay and argue. I may find some time to post something though. Regardless, get the revo and try it out. I know you will be impressed. Like I said before, use the product before you make statements about it.

Grey

iTrader: (61)

<< Grey, your hand moves a shorter distance, but that's not really where the shifting mechanism takes place. The arc is exactly the same distance if you were to measure it where the cables attach. (compare your lines for the **** movement and the arcs you drew. the **** movement is shorter, but the arcs are exactly the same length. hand travels less, but rod still starts and finishes in the same location) The REVO changes the amount of arc distance required (at least from what I can see, I'll know here shortly) . Did that make any sense ? >>



Yeah yeah, that's perfect. I know that the Revo also changes the angle (drawn in red). However, just cutting the shifter also reduces the time it takes to shift from one gear to another since the distances are reduced. Just like in the drawing.

WhiteRabbit

i dont have to get a nitrous system to know that it CAN improve your car's acceleration. i dont have to buy a spoiler to know it does jack $%#^ for performance. I dont have to get a carbon fiber hood to know that I will never feel teh difference lightening by 14 pounds (or however much it is). I dont have to buy a pyramid sub to know that it sounds like @$$. I also do not have to buy an eclipse tutanium to know how good it sounds

I dont need to spend my money on this shortshifter to know that it does not give any performance benefit. Im sorry that you will not be here for me to explain exactly why. wait, i was here, and so were you. you just dont get it. im also sorry that you feel that i need to buy a specific product in order to debunk it. a short shifter is a short shifter is a short shifter, period.

its all bs, just like how the car companies have everyone all believing that a 6 speaker stereo truly is better than a 4 speaker. no improved sound quality whatsoever, just crappier imaging.

but we are all sheep, and without education, we would all think that stickers, and no resonators, and bodykits, and wings a shortshifters make us go faster.

but dont they??

WhiteRabbit

<< Yeah yeah, that's perfect. I know that the Revo also changes the angle (drawn in red). However, just cutting the shifter also reduces the time it takes to shift from one gear to another since the distances are reduced. Just like in the drawing. >>



see? grey inderstands that its real even tho its ghetto rigged![IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG] [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/IMG]

BAK

Oh well, I didn't buy it thinking it was going to make me any faster, I bought it because I heard that the actual feel of the shift was better and the throw was shorter, so I wanted to try it out. It's only a hundred bucks anyways, I've shelled out 5 times that at the Titty bars, at least I got something to show for my money (other than a woody)

Peace... (BAK)

WhiteRabbit

<< Oh well, I didn't buy it thinking it was going to make me any faster, I bought it because I heard that the actual feel of the shift was better and the throw was shorter, so I wanted to try it out. It's only a hundred bucks anyways, I've shelled out 5 times that at the Titty bars, at least I got something to show for my money (other than a woody)

Peace... (BAK) >>



DAMN STRAIGHT [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] finally someone who likes it for its FUNCTION, the great feel. BAK, you are greatly increasing my faith in this forum, which at times seems like a forum of sheep. you just proved that idea wrong [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG] I love the way my shifter fels, I didnt even have to adjust it to make sure teh trrow forward to back ratio was equal, chop, weld, and stick the boot back on. looks great, feels great, solid as hell. best ten bucks ive spent on the car yet. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/IMG]

Grey

iTrader: (61)

Oh yeah, and I still love the increased performance of my shifter. LOL This isn't over WhiteRabbit! You have not convinced me yet. I see that I haven't convinced you either.

BAK

Yeah.... I have to agree with you about the forum sometimes, WhiteRabbit. I know my car isn't fast and it really never will be. I've owned at least 15 cars and several motorcycles in my 38 years of life and know what's fast, what's not, what could be, and what won't ever be. I got my Civic (2nd one I have owned) for looks and for gas mileage (30-32 mpg sure beats my 12 mpg for the V8 Grand Cherokee I unloaded!) and because of it's reliability. (I abused my 95 EX for 120,000+ miles and that thing never broke, that shows Honda is doing something right). My car is my hobby right now and a release from a 40-50 hr a week very stressfull deskjob and 8 hours per semester of College, since I can't party or really drink anymore because of my Security Clearances required for this job.

I have met some pretty cool people on this site though, sometimes you just have to weed through the BS to find them.

BAK

WhiteRabbit

<< Oh yeah, and I still love the increased performance of my shifter. LOL This isn't over WhiteRabbit! You have not convinced me yet. I see that I haven't convinced you either. >>



hehe. not over yet by far [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] ill have my day! =p

yeah back, im just getting into cars, daily drivers, teh concept of performance, and of course fabrication and construction. I bought a civic cause its cheap hahaa. maybe when i get otuta college and get a decent job I can get something nicer, but you cant beat a civic for a daily driver!

BAK

Well, it only took about 30 minutes for the install and I'm freaking impressed. I love the way it looks and shifts. It seems tighter than the OEM setup, but the throws are shorter than $hit. The height of the **** is perfect. It's kinda weird to get used to, I find myself not letting off the clutch quick enough now after I shift, I guess I need to get used to the timing. Definitely worth the money IMO.

Here's a pic of the finished product with the RSX shift **** which I also think looks sweet. I need a real digital camera, this Palm Pilot camera is pretty weak without a lot of light.



[IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG] time!

Grey

iTrader: (61)

Off Topic: How come you have two outlets? Are they both outlets? Did that come stock like that?

BAK

That was my $25 DIY project, but nobody seemed like it was anything special.[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/IMG]


My DIY

I can run my Passport 8500 radar detector and my cell phone or laptop at the same time. I thought it was a cool mod, but really didn't get much interest.

Grey

iTrader: (61)

I like it!

Add more details, okay... I just included it in the Mega DIY Thread.

BAK

I thought it was pretty cool. Also, the new outlet is almost centered between the drink holder, so you can use both drink holders with something plugged into the middle outlet. The original outlet when something is plugged into it gets in the way of the passengers drink holder.

Grey

iTrader: (61)

Very true indeed. I might do thi little mod too.

Mbow

<< Well, it only took about 30 minutes for the install and I'm freaking impressed. I love the way it looks and shifts. It seems tighter than the OEM setup, but the throws are shorter than $hit. The height of the **** is perfect. It's kinda weird to get used to, I find myself not letting off the clutch quick enough now after I shift, I guess I need to get used to the timing. Definitely worth the money IMO.

Here's a pic of the finished product with the RSX shift **** which I also think looks sweet. I need a real digital camera, this Palm Pilot camera is pretty weak without a lot of light.



[IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG] time! >>




Ok I'm back. Have 2 tests tomorrow but had to check this thread. I think Bak said it best, "I find myself not letting off the clutch quick enough now after I shift." Hmm...wonder why that is? Because your getting into gear quicker and have shortened the time the clutch has to be disengaged while you shift. You can shift into the next gear quicker, the clutch is released quicker, you are back on the power quicker, and thus, your 1/4 mile times will be faster.

Anyhow, it took me a few days to get used to the timing also. You move the stick into the next gear so much quicker than stock that you are not used to letting the clutch out that fast. I love the darn thing. Best $100 bucks I have spent on the car.

As for the sheep comment. I'm no sheep lil'buddy. And you still haven't proven anything. You can't tell me it doesn't do anything when I can shift into the next gear faster. There is no way to argue that fact. I think your point is that you can't go any faster than the slowest link in the chain. However, before that slowest link becomes technically a "bottleneck", everything else must be moving at the exact same speed and have the ability to go faster than the bottleneck. Now, if you can prove that you can shift so fast that you are actually quicker than slamming the clutch into gear, which even the stock clutch doesn't slip enough to be noticeable, then I could agree with you.

Edit: I don't think that the 'bottleneck' theory really has any bearing here. It's not an assembly line. After you shift, you are not waiting for that shift to go through before you shift again. So, nothing is getting backed up. Imo, the slowest part of the shift, is the driver. The car will get the power to the ground as fast as you can push that clutch in and let and out.

My idea is this: If you are calling the clutch and the time it takes to get the power to the wheels once you release the clutch as controlling the total time of the entire process than you are right to an extent. However, everything else must be maximized first.

Let's just say that the time from when you release the clutch to the time it takes the power to reach the wheels = 5secs and will not change in this situation.

Now, in oem specs, lets say when you hit redline, it takes you 3 secs to push in the clutch, shift gears, and release it. That's as fast as you can possibly shift gears.

So, you redline first, push in the clutch, move the stick to 2nd, release the clutch, the power reaches the wheels. 5+3=8secs for that shift.

We agree that the short-shifter decreases the time it takes you to physically move the stick from 1st to 2nd gear.

Install short-shifter w/ relocation of the shift point. We agree that the distance to physically move the stick from 1st to 2nd has been shortened. Obviously, it will take less time to move the stick the shorter distance and thus you can let the clutch out sooner.

So, redline 1st, in goes the clutch, move the stick from 1st to 2nd, out goes the clutch and the power to the wheels. There is no argument that the shift time will be quicker because there is a decreased distance of travel and the clutch can be engaged sooner as a result. So, you can now push in the clutch, shift, and release the clutch .5secs quicker.

Physical shift =2.5secs + 5secs = 7.5secs

So, if you shift at exactly the same speed every time, then in stock configuration, the process will take 8 secs for each shift. Witht he shortshifter the process takes 7.5secs. It can't be much clearer.

The clutch isn't really a bottleneck, it's a constraint. When you shift, there isn't another shift sitting there waiting for the first one to go through and so on. That is how a bottleneck controls the speed of the line. That isn't our situation so to speak. If we can decrease the time it takes to get to the slowest point, then we have decreased the total time. Once, that has been maximized, then you'll have to work on the tranny to decrease the time more.

Let me hear your case aganst that example.

WhiteRabbit

taht was such an illogical and stupid response i could barely skim it. it would not be worth my time to disprove what you said, point by point.

I went online to try to find more information about shortshifters (since neither one of us is doing anything about this rather than trying to explain what we "feel") i found several neat articles on shortshifters. who knew, maybe one of them would have an article about why shortshifters make you go fastAr! [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

not one single one actually said you would go faster. they all said the stick feels tighter, teh throws feel nicer, and aesthetically, the shifter looks more pleasing.

its a civic, not a huge truck stick!

trying to argue with you is like talking to a fence post. If you dont want to do anything but tell me how the short shifter makes you feel, ill agree that my *****-rigged stick makes me feel like a big man too.

no new facts have been brought forth, only stories I made up vs. stories that you made up. in that respect, we were both full of $hit (but I know Im right) Recently, to try to break this cycle, I have gone out and talked to autocross racers, and tomorrow im ganna talk to a buddy of mine who builds drag cars. both autocross racers told me teh same thing: "a civic doesnt have a long truck stick!" (they both autoX mid 90's civics, BTW) and We will see what my drag racing buddy has got to say.

but I know he is going to sat the same thing that the autoX ppl said. they told me you were full of $hit

WhiteRabbit

and my buddy still thinks the resonator out makes my car faster. im thinking you think this too?

just because you FEEL it faster doesnt make it faster. you show me the slips, and I'll meet you at the track, I'll drive your car and beat both times.

Mbow

Your theory is that if any part of the process is slower than a short-shifter it can't decrease the time. This is true on an assembly line. Why? Because you have a process that is taking longer than everything else. So, product builds up at that process. So, the line can't move any faster because the next process can't be done until the bottleneck process is done.

The reason your theory is completely wrong, is because once you shift, another shift is not waiting for the first to go through. Therefore, your theory does not apply. Shifting is one process and the clutch engaging and power going to the wheels is another. Maybe it does take the power getting to the wheels longer, but a shift isn't sitting there waiting for that process to complete. Another shift doesn't come again until you hit redline and the process starts again. So, any improvement, decrease in time, in either process will shorten the total time for both processes together. Sorry, but that blows your whole theory out of the water and there is no way for you to argue that.

As for the truck stick thing, yea you're right. But what is wrong with optimizing it? It's just fun ya know.

Resonator...what does that resonator do? It muffles the sound for the most part. A disadvantage is it also restricts airflow into the engine. An engine is nothing but a glorified air pump. The more air flowing through the engine, the more power it will produce. I am not going to argue this one with you though. We can save it for another time.


Lastly, as for the fence post thing. Look at why your theory doesn't work....LOL

[IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

Grey

iTrader: (61)

<< ill agree that my *****-rigged stick makes me feel like a big man too >>



OK, WTF? Let's try not to be racist.

Mbow: I totally agree. You put in words what I drew in that little chart. Although I complicated the chart with the assumption that certain parts of the process overlap each other. Same idea though. Shorten one part of the process and the whole process takes less time. Especially if each part of the process finishes before the other finishes.

Mbow

Bump

WhiteRabbit

alright. im gonna humble myself now, in the hopes I can humble you too. I spoke with my buddy today who builds drag cars, and he gave a very detailed and interesting answer. gimme a minute, I'll type it up here.

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

Dang Rabbit glad to see your knitpicking others too [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG].. he he

Cheers
Mohawk

WhiteRabbit

here is the moment of truth, who is right, me or mbow/grey? we both are!

Alright. I flat out asked my buddy "why dont shortshifters make you go faster?" he thought about it for a second, and we had a small discusion.

first discussion point. a short shifter DOES reduce teh time it takes to shift in between gears. Therefore, you and grey are correct in this way, Mbow. I will doninate being right from here on out [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG] his second point is that a short shifter HAS POTENTIAL to decrease ET, but there are several other factors included, its not JUST a short shifter.

#1. there must be some power to use in the first place. a short shifter dont mean jack if you have no power to build on in teh first place.

#2. you need a grippy clutch.the 2k1 civic has a sponge clutch, he knows it, I know it, my autoX buddy knows it, and i hope that you and grey know it. if not, you do now.

He gave me a great example that proves my point down to detail. He first said that in a civic you probably would not get an actual performance increase due to these two reasons. His words were "the difference will be negligible." his second statement was a story about his buddy's S4. With 250 HP and a ceramic clutch straight from the factory, he said that this car showed a marked improvement with the shortshifter they installed. said they were able to decrease ET by a couple hundredths of a second.

Im going to repeat this, because it bears repeating. his second statement was that a shortshifter showed a marked decrese in ET. his third statement was that it shaved a couple hundreths off the ET. therefore, we can extrapolate that, to him, a couple hundreths of a second is a marked improvement in your ET. his first statement was that you will have a negligible difference in acceleration for our cars, by factor of our loose clutch and no power.

therefore, when I said that a shortshifter does not increase performance, I was completely right as well.

Our last discussion point was why you would claim you could fell a difference. at this point in time, i flat out told him i wanted this info to "put a ricer in his place." He remarked that MOST LIKELY what is going on (cause really, only you know what is exactly going on in your car) is that since you can put the car in gear faster, and you are readily admitting to shifting at 7k RPMs, and dumping the clutch, is that you are not letting the car's RPMs match gears.

therefore, what is happening, is that the revs are slightly higher when you dump the clutch than without the shortshifter, causing a kick in the car, or a small buck. He claims (and i agree) that this feeling could fool anyone into thinking they have a fsater car than they actually have. NOW, if you will scroll up, you see I have already made statements about shift style, where the fastest ET, and your fastest lap time, comes from SMOOTH SHIFTING, not from a car that bucks cause the RPM's need to match up.

this is also why i keep saying that i will drive lower ET's than you, you with a SS, me without. because of the difference in drivers, not equipment.

THEREFORE, after all this pain and toil, we must come to 3 conclusions:

#1 a shortshifter WILL allow you to shift faster.

#2 a shortshifter will NOT increase performance in any way.

#3 a car driven smoothly fully stock will have lower ET's and quicker lap times than an identical car with a shortshifter difference.

put'er there, Mbow and Grey! [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG] is on me! as far as I'm concerned, the question is answered [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

BAK

I just shaved 2 seconds off my 1/4 mile times after installing my short shifter !!!!







J/K...... [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

Actually, it does seem like I can run though the shifts quicker, but it's probably more mental than reality. I love the way that thing feels, it's like a different car to me.

WhiteRabbit

<< Dang Rabbit glad to see your knitpicking others too [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG].. he he >>



lol... jealous?? join us, [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG] on me [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

hahaha!

BAK

I missed Rabbit's post while being a smarta$$ on the last one.

Rabbit, that's a good post and makes a heck of alot of sense. I agree that our clutch is a big contributing factor in this equation. It's spongy as heck. I think with a good performance clutch, that the SS could truly make a difference (slight but maybe noticeable?) in the outcome. I just like the way the car feels shifting now. Best $120 I've spent so far. In all, this was a pretty good discussion, sometimes a little personal, but a lot of good ideas exchanged.

Barry (BAK)

WhiteRabbit

<< I just like the way the car feels shifting now. Best $120 I've spent so far. In all, this was a pretty good discussion, sometimes a little personal, but a lot of good ideas exchanged. >>



I agree! ive never spoken to anyone who didnt love their short shifter! even during my online searches, not one said that they didnt love the difference it made in how shifting felt! I would reccommend anyone who has a manual transmission put some sort of shortshifter on thier car!

I just needed to tell everyone WHY they should invest the money in doing it, cause, like body kits, spoilers, and stickers, it aint for performance!

feels great tho, and noone here will say they didnt like their SS...... theres a reason for that

PlatnumBomb

The SS might not make a diff in performance...but the throws being so long get annoying..hence...why i chopped 2 inches off the top of my revo technica sts...look how low my shifter sits in my member pics...

I just like it cause its only a flick of the wrist...

-g0rd0

Grey

iTrader: (61)

<< therefore, what is happening, is that the revs are slightly higher when you dump the clutch than without the shortshifter, causing a kick in the car, or a small buck. He claims (and i agree) that this feeling could fool anyone into thinking they have a fsater car than they actually have. NOW, if you will scroll up, you see I have already made statements about shift style, where the fastest ET, and your fastest lap time, comes from SMOOTH SHIFTING, not from a car that bucks cause the RPM's need to match up. >>



This makes a lot of sense and I think I too notice a kick when I shift too fast. Maybe I'm not letting go of the gas pedal quick enough?

I think that your last post was a good one. There is one big flaw though, you said that, "a shortshifter will NOT increase performance in any way." and your friend said that, "the difference will be negligible.". Allright, that's all I wanted to prove. That in fact a short shifter does decrease the process of shifting from one gear to another. Therefore it does increase performance. I wasn't arguing the amount. I don't know what the amount of increase is. I would have to do some testing to figure that out. All I was arguing that a short shifter has the potential to increase performance.

You may think that you proved your point, but I actually think that you proved our point. Who the hell cares though. Everyone is happy now. [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]