beeson76

My dad is a Frame specialists. He aligns car frames, front ends etc. But he does more older cars and trucks more than anything. So he knows how to align fronts (Caster, Camber, and Toe End). And his equipment is old. I guess you can call him Old School

I have a 2006 Honda Civic EX—4 door.

When I drive the car in the right lane, it is as straight as an arrow. When I drive it in the left lane, it pulls left. What would cause this? We looked at both the Camber, Caster, and Toe End 2 different times...the first time we made minor adjustments, the second time, no adjustments at all. I just got brand new tires yesterday. And we aligned the car yesterday too.

So we are confused Would this be camber, caster, etc. My dad knows how to do it but he may be wrong with his “old school” ways...and equipment. He also needs measurements for Camber and Caster. I guess he is more guessing than anything...or generalizing between old cars and new cars.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for any help received.

ezone

Alignment tech hasn't changed. If your dad knew the principles of wheel alignment back then (when?), they still apply today.
BTW: What are you considering "old"?

Before putting it back on the rack again, post up what the readings are right now. ALL of the readings for front and rear. Honda didn't give any easy way to make changes to anything but toe.

Now go swap the two front tires side to side and drive it again. Does that make any difference? About half of real pull complaints are caused by tires.

Most cars are set up to be completely neutral in either lane or set to go straight in the right hand lane only. The tilt of the road in the left lane makes it want to go left. Could be normal, quit whining.

HTH

beeson76

Sorry if I appear to be complaining. And I have nothing against my dad and his old school methods--hes been doing this stuff for about 45 years, and I think he is pretty good at what he does. I was just setting up for the situation, because someone would reply with the question "What does the computer readout say, and how does he have the laser alignment set up?"--considering that he doesnt even have a computer in the whole shop, I was just saving myself from replying to such questions.

I will get the readings from him for you guys. I know we changed the Camber on the back wheels a lot this last time. But I will get the readings for you.

I am pretty sure that the tires are not problem...and here is why I say this. All tires were wearing on the inside really hard, so we adjusted it the first time. That was probably over 8 months ago. We adjusted front and back wheels to a minor degrees. Even then they were not too far off...but rather we adjusted mainly to adjust because they were wearing...if that makes sense. Now to the present...the car was still pulling to the left, but the tires were shot at this point (we really didnt think it was a good idea to adjust based on using tires that were shot), so we finally decided to get all new tires. We put them on, and it still pulls to the left. But it only happens in the left lane. Again the right lane is as straight as an arrow.

ezone

Sorry if I appear to be complaining.

You damn whippersnapper. Get off my lawn.


And I have nothing against my dad and his old school methods--hes been doing this stuff for about 45 years, and I think he is pretty good at what he does.

The methods are irrelevant IF one knows what they are doing. Back in the "olden days", one actually HAD to know about alignment principles to a certain extent, and what they were doing with the equipment.

Modern aligners are designed so ANY MONKEY can follow the bouncing ball on a lit up screen and come out with a reasonably straight alignment, but without knowing a damn thing about alignment principles, or really without knowing anything about fixing cars at all.
Make all the numbers "green" and it must be great, right? (Wrong!)




Ask your dad if he would agree with this: In the hands of a master, modern equipment only speeds up the process.

Wait....if he's only using old school stuff, he may not have an informed opinion on this.
My times have gone from 1-2 hours (30 years ago) to 10-30 minutes, to do most alignments on most of the cars I deal with. Most of my speed increase has come from MUCH faster equipment setup time.
Alignment principles have not changed one iota in that time.

I learned alignments with drive-across toe plates, sharp pointers (scribes and tape measure) on a bar for setting toe, bubble levels, mirrors, and strings for camber/caster. If you had to align 4 wheels, you had to carry all the equipment to the rear wheels and start over.

I was just setting up for the situation, because someone would reply with the question "What does the computer readout say,

I want the numbers.
Camber, caster, toe. (front)
Camber and toe, (rear).
I don't care what equipment was used to get them, the numbers will be exactly the same -- regardless of the equipment used-- if it was done properly.


he doesnt even have a computer in the whole shop,

Wow. That IS old school. I couldn't get very far without one (several), but I am doing far more than just suspension and alignment work.



I will get the readings from him for you guys. I know we changed the Camber on the back wheels a lot this last time.

Ummm, really? How'd you manage to do that? Seriously, what?
I have actually done this, before the TSB (linked below) came out because these cars were eating tires before the first tire rotation was due.

I want to know what YOU did. (I am assuming you are still using the original upper arms on the rear?)


But I will get the readings for you.

I am pretty sure that the tires are not problem...and here is why I say this. All tires were wearing on the inside really hard,

Wearing the inside edges is somewhat expected due to the negative camber designed in to the cars suspension setup.

BUT

The rears have a tendency to lean in too far and make the rear tires chop the edges (or aggravate the condition).


Read the rear upper arm TSB link linked in this link:
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4591405

The updated arms reduce the tendency to chop the tires, not eliminate it.




and it still pulls to the left. But it only happens in the left lane. Again the right lane is as straight as an arrow.

A good chance it is ok, but I want to see the numbers before I say that for sure.

If the numbers look OK then swap the 2 front tires and see how it drives.

90% of most peoples driving is supposed to be done in a right lane, so left drift is ignored in the left lane.




Some average numbers as a guide:

Front camber, even side to side
Front caster, even side to side
(Let me know what you have for these, left and right for both)

Front toe, 0.00 +/- 2mm

NEW Rear specs are listed at the end of the TSB linked above.
(-0.75 +/-0.75camber, +2mm +/-2mm toe.)

Old rear camber spec was -1.50 +/-0.75deg camber rear, IIRC
Check your rear upper arms for the "C" marks described in the TSB to see if they are original or the improved ones.


HTH

beeson76

Thanks ezone for the replies.

Ok. Here are the measurements:

Camber Front Left: +1/4 to +1/2
Camber Front Right: +1/4 to +1/2
Camber Back Left: +1/4 to +1/2
Camber Back Right: +1/4 to +1/2

We adjusted the Camber twice over the last months on the rear tires. It started at -1 1/2. We then got it to -1/2 to -3/4. We now have it at +1/4 to +1/2.

Caster for the Front Left: +6 ½
Caster for Front Right: + 6 ½

Toe In for Front is 0 to ¼
Toe In for Back is 0 to ¼

ezone

You just gave ranges of measurements for all but caster. Ranges are meaningless for my intent right now. Variables are not what I need to see.
What are the exact measurements for all angles of all 4 corners?

And what did you do to alter the rear camber?

beeson76

For all Camber measurements, it was +1/4.

For Toe In, it was 1/8.

He was just giving me what he was striving for. And this is what he got.

For the rear Camber, we shimmed it out.

Thanks again for the help.

I appreciate it very much.

ezone

If camber and caster are perfectly even, side to side, in the front, then any pull should be caused by something other than the alignment. (The rear end doesn't normally cause any pull, only steering center (thrust angle or dogtracking) and tire wear get affected back there.)

That leaves the tires, the road, and the wind.
Swap front tires first, see if there is a difference.
If no difference, then the car is assumed to be average.

An acceptable difference between sides is (general spec, most cars) .5 deg for either camber or caster (unless specs say otherwise, like a Twin I Beam Ford, and some cars are designed with a "lead" on one front tire too).
Most people wouldn't notice only .5 deg difference in either one on most cars.

Pull goes toward the most positive camber
Pull goes toward the least positive caster
Any more than roughly a half degree difference in either one can lead to complaints.
Normally one does not want the tolerances to "stack up" with both leading to the same direction.

Do you know what "road crown" is?
That is the tilt of the road. Roads are tilted (crowned, high in the center) so water runs off to the sides. An average tilt is 1.5 to 2 degrees, and that is enough to make many cars want to drift to the side. This sounds to me like what you are complaining about, and you aren't going to fix it.


Something else:
You ARE aware that there is a difference between having the steering wheel off center, and a genuine pull, aren't you? Make sure of your use of terms and what they mean.

And the difference between a drift and a pull?



HTH

speedy25

I think the OP and his dad are both competent on this issue.

MOST "pull" problems are caused by road crown. I've had days where I got fraked out when my car wouldnt go straight and suddenly it was fine. Crappy road contractors!! (anyone see any actual almost flat pavement lately? I havent!!)

THEN, some cars are just more prone to pull over bad pavement than others. Some tires can cause it. Sometimes its a missed steering part that is worn out.

It does seem to be MUCH more prevalant on FWD cars.

-SP