Down shifting: When, Where and Why...
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Down shifting: When, Where and Why...
I just thinking about the different theorys on shift points on the way to work and decided to ask what every ones opinion or tecnique they use for downshifting for a turn.
I konw there are several Different theorys from Downshifting before you turn in to Downshifting at the Apex. So when and where do you shift? and do you think its a good place to, or that you may need to alter your tecnique to get better times??
Personally I down shift Right before I turn in. It seems to work pretty good, but There are several Guys that I race with that say you should down shift when you hit the apex... So, maybe I'll learn that and see if its better.
any other Ideas?
I konw there are several Different theorys from Downshifting before you turn in to Downshifting at the Apex. So when and where do you shift? and do you think its a good place to, or that you may need to alter your tecnique to get better times??
Personally I down shift Right before I turn in. It seems to work pretty good, but There are several Guys that I race with that say you should down shift when you hit the apex... So, maybe I'll learn that and see if its better.
any other Ideas?
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Rep Power: 351 i tend to down shift, right after i get in the turn right b4 i hit the apex.
i feel that my car has a better grip when i down shift like that and more control.
ive tryed shifting right b4 i get in the turn and when i hit the apex. but i dont feel the same comfort as i do when i shift right b4 the apex and right after i get in the turn.
i feel that my car has a better grip when i down shift like that and more control.
ive tryed shifting right b4 i get in the turn and when i hit the apex. but i dont feel the same comfort as i do when i shift right b4 the apex and right after i get in the turn.
I usually brake headed into turn, and just before the apex I swing over and heel toe. that way I am in the gear just before the apex and incase there is a miscalculation I do not get any clutch kick in the middle of the turn. then get on that gas and go out the apex
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Rep Power: 304 I down shift before the turn, I'd like to do it at the apex but I'm not at that skill level yet. I still working on the heel toe. I don't feel comfortable having the clutch in at the apex.
Right know I'm downshifing before turning in. I'd like to see what you Autocross dudes do.
Right know I'm downshifing before turning in. I'd like to see what you Autocross dudes do.
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Rep Power: 0 i would say that i down shift going into the turn, and if the turn dictates, i downshift again before the apex, so that when i hit the apex i can roll on to the throttle and power out of the turn. ill admit, i probably dont perform my tecnique the most eficceint, but hey, i dont have any track time yet, i only have experience from driving hard on the back roads when there is no one in front of me
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Rep Power: 0 It all depends on the turn of me. If its a sharp turn, I downshift right before the turn to keep my hands on the wheel for better control during the turn. If its a smaller or multiple turn, I downshift in the turn close to the apex, then upshift/downshift when needed after that. Its just something you have to play with and feel comfortable. My gf asks me all the time how I learned to take corners fast and when to up/down shift. Its all a learning process that takes seat time.
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Originally Posted by Green Civic
It all depends on the turn of me. If its a sharp turn, I downshift right before the turn to keep my hands on the wheel for better control during the turn. If its a smaller or multiple turn, I downshift in the turn close to the apex, then upshift/downshift when needed after that. Its just something you have to play with and feel comfortable. My gf asks me all the time how I learned to take corners fast and when to up/down shift. Its all a learning process that takes seat time.
Bingo. Every turn is different for me..and with the new amount of HP/Torque in my EP....things are having to be re-learned....VERY weird process. I've hit the rev-limiter quite a few times in the EP, lol, I'm not used to climbing up the RPM's that fast, lol. Eh...seat time is ALWAYS the answer....but fer you....I would think you KNOW what you're doing!
lolI think we've ALL known since kindergarten....
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Last edited by FattyMcJ; Jul 22, 2004 at 11:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zzyzx
theres allways more to learn......
i personally almost always down shift/ heel toe at the beginning of my breaking
this way, i have two hands on the steering and full gas before the apex all the way out to the exit.
this method helps me to pull up on cars with my car setup. example, this helped me PULL right up to a corvette on a UPHILL exit today at the track
this way, i have two hands on the steering and full gas before the apex all the way out to the exit.
this method helps me to pull up on cars with my car setup. example, this helped me PULL right up to a corvette on a UPHILL exit today at the track
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Rep Power: 0 hmm.. this is an interesting topic. you will definitely want to have completed your downshift by the time you hit the apex of the corner. when you hit the apex, its time to get back on the gas, so if you still have to downshift, or are in the middle of doing so, you are losing lap time.
downshifting in relation to the turn in point is a different story. often, on the track, you will be braking in a straight line as you approach a corner. you should complete your downshift as you are braking. this means the downshift will be done before turn in.
however... there are many times when you will be trail braking when approaching a corner. this means you will be braking while turning in, and also downshifting during turn in as well. this makes things slightly tricky though... as we all know, you get the maximum traction from your tires when you are doing 1 of 3 things: braking, accelerating, or turning. if you are doing 2 of these things, then you are rationing the available traction of the tires.... and you sure as hell better be rationing it correctly. this also means that your downshift is that much more important. knowing how to double clutch or heel-toe well is an absolute neccesity. since you are already sharing the available traction by braking and turning at the same time, if you are off with your downshift you could be out in the weeds.
this brings up another topic... what the hell do you do with your hands? when you are braking in a straight line (and downshifting there as well) both hands are free when you start turn in. however, if you are trail braking into a corner, both hands are not free as you turn in. this complicates things greatly. most of the corners you would trail brake into are especially tight... thats why you are trail braking in the first place right? you are trying to rotate the rear of the car more, to get through the tight turn faster. this means you only have one hand free when you are trying to go fast through a tight corner, all while splitting your available traction between braking and turning... whew... sometimes its a brain overload.
downshifting in relation to the turn in point is a different story. often, on the track, you will be braking in a straight line as you approach a corner. you should complete your downshift as you are braking. this means the downshift will be done before turn in.
however... there are many times when you will be trail braking when approaching a corner. this means you will be braking while turning in, and also downshifting during turn in as well. this makes things slightly tricky though... as we all know, you get the maximum traction from your tires when you are doing 1 of 3 things: braking, accelerating, or turning. if you are doing 2 of these things, then you are rationing the available traction of the tires.... and you sure as hell better be rationing it correctly. this also means that your downshift is that much more important. knowing how to double clutch or heel-toe well is an absolute neccesity. since you are already sharing the available traction by braking and turning at the same time, if you are off with your downshift you could be out in the weeds.
this brings up another topic... what the hell do you do with your hands? when you are braking in a straight line (and downshifting there as well) both hands are free when you start turn in. however, if you are trail braking into a corner, both hands are not free as you turn in. this complicates things greatly. most of the corners you would trail brake into are especially tight... thats why you are trail braking in the first place right? you are trying to rotate the rear of the car more, to get through the tight turn faster. this means you only have one hand free when you are trying to go fast through a tight corner, all while splitting your available traction between braking and turning... whew... sometimes its a brain overload.
Last edited by JamesL; Aug 5, 2004 at 10:45 AM.
Originally Posted by JamesL
this brings up another topic... what the hell do you do with your hands? when you are braking in a straight line (and downshifting there as well) both hands are free when you start turn in. however, if you are trail braking into a corner, both hands are not free as you turn in. this complicates things greatly. most of the corners you would trail brake into are especially tight... thats why you are trail braking in the first place right? you are trying to rotate the rear of the car more, to get through the tight turn faster. this means you only have one hand free when you are trying to go fast through a tight corner, all while splitting your available traction between braking and turning... whew... sometimes its a brain overload.
yes, it gets very complicated. especially at Streets of Willow. 14 turns a lap. one coming up every 5-10 seconds. continually shifting from 2 to 3rd to 2nd.
you can try to read all the books out there( i do) nothing helps more than seat time. its something that u'll just have to learn by trial and error
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Originally Posted by JamesL
hmm.. this is an interesting topic. you will definitely want to have completed your downshift by the time you hit the apex of the corner. when you hit the apex, its time to get back on the gas, so if you still have to downshift, or are in the middle of doing so, you are losing lap time.
downshifting in relation to the turn in point is a different story. often, on the track, you will be braking in a straight line as you approach a corner. you should complete your downshift as you are braking. this means the downshift will be done before turn in.
however... there are many times when you will be trail braking when approaching a corner. this means you will be braking while turning in, and also downshifting during turn in as well. this makes things slightly tricky though... as we all know, you get the maximum traction from your tires when you are doing 1 of 3 things: braking, accelerating, or turning. if you are doing 2 of these things, then you are rationing the available traction of the tires.... and you sure as hell better be rationing it correctly. this also means that your downshift is that much more important. knowing how to double clutch or heel-toe well is an absolute neccesity. since you are already sharing the available traction by braking and turning at the same time, if you are off with your downshift you could be out in the weeds.
this brings up another topic... what the hell do you do with your hands? when you are braking in a straight line (and downshifting there as well) both hands are free when you start turn in. however, if you are trail braking into a corner, both hands are not free as you turn in. this complicates things greatly. most of the corners you would trail brake into are especially tight... thats why you are trail braking in the first place right? you are trying to rotate the rear of the car more, to get through the tight turn faster. this means you only have one hand free when you are trying to go fast through a tight corner, all while splitting your available traction between braking and turning... whew... sometimes its a brain overload.
downshifting in relation to the turn in point is a different story. often, on the track, you will be braking in a straight line as you approach a corner. you should complete your downshift as you are braking. this means the downshift will be done before turn in.
however... there are many times when you will be trail braking when approaching a corner. this means you will be braking while turning in, and also downshifting during turn in as well. this makes things slightly tricky though... as we all know, you get the maximum traction from your tires when you are doing 1 of 3 things: braking, accelerating, or turning. if you are doing 2 of these things, then you are rationing the available traction of the tires.... and you sure as hell better be rationing it correctly. this also means that your downshift is that much more important. knowing how to double clutch or heel-toe well is an absolute neccesity. since you are already sharing the available traction by braking and turning at the same time, if you are off with your downshift you could be out in the weeds.
this brings up another topic... what the hell do you do with your hands? when you are braking in a straight line (and downshifting there as well) both hands are free when you start turn in. however, if you are trail braking into a corner, both hands are not free as you turn in. this complicates things greatly. most of the corners you would trail brake into are especially tight... thats why you are trail braking in the first place right? you are trying to rotate the rear of the car more, to get through the tight turn faster. this means you only have one hand free when you are trying to go fast through a tight corner, all while splitting your available traction between braking and turning... whew... sometimes its a brain overload.
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Originally Posted by usafstud
yes, it gets very complicated. especially at Streets of Willow. 14 turns a lap. one coming up every 5-10 seconds. continually shifting from 2 to 3rd to 2nd.
you can try to read all the books out there( i do) nothing helps more than seat time. its something that u'll just have to learn by trial and error
you can try to read all the books out there( i do) nothing helps more than seat time. its something that u'll just have to learn by trial and error
one particular track i race at a lot (Motorsport Ranch, outside of fort worth, tx) has 12 turns and is only 1.7 miles. there is one turn off the end of the back straight (in the civic im doing about 95 at the end of the straight) that is particularly tight. in order to get around it quickly in a fwd car, heavy trail braking is a must. the car feels on edge through the whole corner if you take it correctly... and you need to be steering with one hand, while downshifting from 4th to 2nd to prepare for the exit of the corner... but when you do it right
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Originally Posted by JamesL
nothing... absolutely nothing is a replacement for seat time. although some of the books do give some great info.
one particular track i race at a lot (Motorsport Ranch, outside of fort worth, tx) has 12 turns and is only 1.7 miles. there is one turn off the end of the back straight (in the civic im doing about 95 at the end of the straight) that is particularly tight. in order to get around it quickly in a fwd car, heavy trail braking is a must. the car feels on edge through the whole corner if you take it correctly... and you need to be steering with one hand, while downshifting from 4th to 2nd to prepare for the exit of the corner... but when you do it right
one particular track i race at a lot (Motorsport Ranch, outside of fort worth, tx) has 12 turns and is only 1.7 miles. there is one turn off the end of the back straight (in the civic im doing about 95 at the end of the straight) that is particularly tight. in order to get around it quickly in a fwd car, heavy trail braking is a must. the car feels on edge through the whole corner if you take it correctly... and you need to be steering with one hand, while downshifting from 4th to 2nd to prepare for the exit of the corner... but when you do it right
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Originally Posted by jiggerachi
Where in Texas you live man?? You race there alot?? Thats around where I live, a bit of a drive I guess, im in Dallas. Ive been out there once, for one of the NASOIC WRX meet/track days, it was sweet as hell. What are the reqs of racing there...like how much, what do I need to do to my car etc...?? I always wanted to run there.
to do the drivers edge hpdes, you dont need anything besides your car. they start out new racers in the "green" group, and you move up to blue/yellow/red in order of experience. you start out with an instructor riding with you to help/critique. once you get more experience you are allowed to drive solo. the only requirement is a race helmet. if you advance to the red run group, i believe a roll bar is required...
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Rep Power: 318 Thats cool man, I dont know if I can talk my fiance into letting me road race at the moment, but i'll definately try, although it might take awhile, hehe.
So, do they have loner helmets, or do I have to buy one?
So, do they have loner helmets, or do I have to buy one?
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Originally Posted by jiggerachi
Thats cool man, I dont know if I can talk my fiance into letting me road race at the moment, but i'll definately try, although it might take awhile, hehe.
So, do they have loner helmets, or do I have to buy one?
So, do they have loner helmets, or do I have to buy one?
trust me... if you can talk the fiance into letting you, its well worth it.
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