ezone

Is this when it sets misfire codes? Is this the only time you see it misfire?

eager2learn

Yes, the first CEL came on when my engine bogged down on start up. The second time was the same situation. My car starts up fine on a cold start but when it is warmed up, it will bog down once in a while, not all the time.

A little update, I have been starting and driving my car around running errands last week straight with no more start up issues. It seems that it was my ECU relearning itself. I am not that knowledgeable with automotive technology so I am just assuming.

Though I wonder if an ECU relearn would set off codes. Also, it has been 2 weeks since I first had this issue. Does it usually take this long for a relearn or is my ECU just old?

My car is driving and idling normally but last I checked, the fluid level in my radiator dropped so I had to top it off. Hopefully still burping out air. My reservoir level stayed the same. I'll keep watch. I also installed a scan gauge-like device that reads my cars ECU sensors and my vacuum is around 18-19 at idle. Pretty normal. Also my cars voltage is ~12 volts and jumps to 14 when I am driving so my alternator is in good condition it seems. I am going to try taking my car on the freeway this week and see how it performs.

Hopefully everything is up to par and I can get on with my life and start saving up for a re-manufactured engine!

Ezone, turd_ferguson, you guys play computer games any? If so, I'd like to gift some steam cards for you guys for all your help.

Let me know!

Thanks!

Eager2learn

ezone

I'm interested here.

If this is a bog where there is little or no throttle response and nearly stalls as you try to drive away from the parking space, I'd like to set up to watch primary O2 sensor 1/1 and STFT1.
Watch what these items do during a normal warm restart when the car does not act up.
When it bogs down: Does the sensor voltage hang high or low and stay there, and at the same time the STFT climb or drop to an extreme value -- at the time it acts bad, then "snap out of it" and the engine runs correctly again?

If your bog is actually misfires or dead cylinder miss that began at warm startup, I'd want to know if the sparkplug is wet with antifreeze during the event.

RIPSAW

Long who?

eager2learn

Hey ezone,

I am sorry it took so long for me to respond. I just bought this scan-gauge device and am still figuring out how to work out its bells & whistles.

After much monitoring, I have noticed that when my engine bogs down, my o2 voltage drops low and hangs for a few moments then snaps out of it.

I ran some errands today and stopped by 3 different areas.
The first time I cold started, my car started normally.
Every time after that my car gave me bogging problems.
I lost my data for the normal cold start and have not yet to record data for a warm normal start. I'll keep looking out for it.

Anyways, here is my data for each of my 3 bogged down engine starts.
I set my scan-gauge to log data every 250ms.

Warm Engine Bog Down #1




Warm Engine Bog Down #2




Warm Engine Bog Down #3


Also, if it matters matters, my LTFT 1 is currently at 3%, before it was at -0.2%, and I also noticed, when my car is cold, my o2 voltage is at 1.2%, I understand that my o2 sensors need time to warm up before it starts functioning but should it be that high? In addition, a website named www.aa1car.com suggested changing an o2 sensor in obd2 equipped vehicles 1996+ every 100k miles would be ideal. I am going to follow this advice to keep my fuel system running up to par.

Honestly, I am not too bothered right now. I am going to be replacing my engine within the year so if my car can run until then, then I'll be fine. Hopefully my problem isn't too bad.

Thanks for looking and thank you for suggesting this diagnosis idea to me. It was a fun researching o2 sensor and fuel trim data.

ezone

Looks like.....
From 6.07.49 to 6.08.14 is the time leading to the bog in this frame.....the front sensor flatlined, and the computer raised STFT in response to the flatlined sensor, trying to evoke a response. The bog happens around the time of highest STFT. Once the sensor woke back up and began working, the STFT leveled out and works its way back toward its normal range again.


Unplug the front sensor and drive through its paces (situations where you know it would bog), I bet this bog won't happen as long as the sensor is unplugged.

If I'm right then replace the front O2 sensor.

eager2learn

I'm on it, thanks for the quick response!

eager2learn

Man, ezone, if you never suggested an o2 sensor replacement to me I would've never discovered this crack in my exhaust manifold. A quick Google search revealed that this is a common problem with Civics. Problem is, an OEM replacement is 500 bucks. Time for me to go to the junkyard. It's going to be a while before I come back with results for the o2 sensor replacement problem.

Wankenstein

In that spot you could probably get away with having it welded and lasting a long time. Maybe even with JB weld but that's one for Ezone to correlate with.
If you go the junkyard route hopefully you'll find one that isn't cracked as well. Unfortunately, models besides EX and SI have the cat converter attached to the manifold. You could opt to pull a cat-back type off an EX which has less tendency to crack. May have to increase secondary o2 wiring to fit.
Another option is headers into a cat-back and either drill bung-holes (LOL) or buy with pre-drilled for o2 sensors.

There's threads online that detail either option you choose. A small crack in the exhaust shown in the pic you linked would most likely not cause a CEL nor cause a misfire but, may cause improper o2 readings..

ezone

Yeah cracks are pretty common and well documented, but what about unplugging the sensor to see if that resolves the running problem?


I haven't ever tried to patch a cracked manifold myself but others have with varying amounts of success.

eager2learn

Hey ezone, I am very sorry for the delayed response.

It has been raining hard the past few weeks and caused me to become very lazy so I never got around to doing that.

The reason I say this is because, in those 2 weeks of driving, my engine never bogged down. It seemed to went away on its own.

So I spent the next week trying to replicate my problem to no avail. I pumped a full tank of gas like how when I first had it happen and nothing.
I don't if I should be concerned or happy.

I then plugged my OBD2 reader + scan tool up and started my car up just to see if that was the cause. It started up fine but eventually my car became SLIGHTLY groggy, 1 time out of 8 start ups out of 3 days of driving. Interesting. I am going to keep trying to see if it keeps happening and if it does start acting up again, I'll unplug my o2 sensor to see if that's the case. I am guessing its either my car does not support the scan tool, my ECM is old, or its my o2 sensors. I am not a mechanic so I am just hypothesizing.

I also have been logging my data so I'll get around to creating a graph of it to compare and contrast.

I did notice on some start ups, my o2 voltage would spike up and other times it would drop.

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it. Since my main focus is fixing my engine back up, I will stick with doing the JB Weld for now, I was planning on just replacing my cat but I will definitely do a bit of research to see which option would be better performance and longevity wise.

I'll stay updated!

Thanks a bunch, fellas!

eager2learn

Good news, fellas!

I managed to replicate my symptoms. I drove around all day today with my scan tool connected to my OBD port and eventually my car would have trouble starting up. Problem is, it is very difficult to pin point it. When it happens, I would turn my car off, and turn it on again to try to make it happen another time but instead, it would start normally, and I would turn it off one more time to try to make it bog down, and again, it starts normally.

In addition to this, I drove my car after all this without my scan tool connected. 1st start up was normal. Second start up, my engine had a tough time cranking over. I had passengers with me so I did not want to turn my car off and try it again just in case my car would refuse to crank over. When I got home, I turned my car off and back on again to try see if I can make it happen again but to no avail. Sadly, my scanner was not connected so I was not able to record data.

My plan is to drive the rest of the week without my scan tool connected to rule out if it is my scan tool messing with my system or not. Which is the easiest and cheapest option.

If my car continues to bog down without the scan tool connected then I will move on to Ezone's prognosis.

If my car continues to run fine without the scan tool connected then I am positive it is my scanner messing with my system and I will see if unplugging my o2 sensor with my scan tool engaged will fix my start up issues. First, I will have to figure out what am I doing that is making my car have start-up issues so I can replicate it over and over.

Thanks for reading, fellas!

Cheers!

eager2learn

Hey friends!

I regret not following the age old wisdom "if it aint broke, don't fix it."

My car has been giving me a series of bogged down start ups since I started my experiment, but would be fine after driving and going to a stop at a red light and idling.

Eventually my car threw a CEL: P0302 and P1399.

I continued driving as normal to see if it would clear up on its own just like it did the first time.

Today, I had a bit of time, so after running my errands and parking on my driveway, I decided to turn off my car and start it again to see if it bogs down on me.

First try, bogged down.

Second try, bogged down again.

Third times a charm, and yes, I got it to finally give me a series of bogged down attempts.

So I unhooked my HO2S 1/1 to see if that remedies the situation.

Crank, no start symptons. Oh. No.

Tried again, same thing.

Plugged it back in, same situation.

I remember ezone suggesting that there may be coolant covering my spark plugs so I decided to have a look under my oil cap and lo and behold, there is brown sludge, an HG breach, I am assuming.

I checked my coolant reservoir, and it was empty.

I decided to wait an hour to see if it will start up again.

Came back to my car an hour later and read my CEL again.

Freeze frame report
==========================

Vehicle VIN: Not present
Vehicle Manufacturer: Unknown
Vehicle Calibration ID: Not present

Freeze frame information:
------------------
Fuel Status = 0 byte
Engine Coolant Temperature = 138.2 °F
Fuel Trim Bank 1 Short Term = 16.406 %
Fuel Trim Bank 1 Long Term = 0 %
Intake Manifold Pressure = 4.641 psi
Engine RPM = 1,321.5 rpm
Intake Air Temperature = 107.6 °F
Throttle Position(Manifold) = 9.412 %


Current Fault Log
------------------
P0301: Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
P0302: Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected
P0303: Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected
P0304: Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
P0300: Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected


I then cranked it, and eureka! A start up, although slightly bogged down.

Turned off, tried a second time, a normal start up!

Third try, another normal start up!

Tomorrow, I am going to check my spark plugs to see their condition and try wiping off any coolant if there is any on it.

If everything works out, then I am going to pour some more of the HG sealant into my engine.

I plan on swapping this engine out because who knows what else has been going on with the engine, so hopefully this will hold out for the spring seaason.

I apologize if this goes against any conventional wisdom with my choice to pour this sealant into my engine but I am just tryiing to do the best I can with what I got.

Wish me luck, fellas!

Tally ho!

ezone

Not necessarily.


You can't just pull them out and expect to find anything.

You have to set it up to find the failure first.

Start the engine, see if it bogs/misfires. If it does not, then forget pulling plugs out right now, you won't find anything.

Wait until it does bog or misfire after a startup...



Start the engine, and if it DOES bog/misfire then shut it off immediately before it clears out and runs right. NOW pull the plugs and check for being wet with antifreeze.


If it runs correctly before you shut it off, you won't find what you are looking for.

eager2learn

Thanks again, ezone, for the speedy reply!

I wasn't able to catch my engine to misfire today but I will be riding around with my spark plug socket and wrench to be prepared for when it happens.

I did check up on the conditions of my plugs today just to see a before and after of what I should be looking out for.

Plugs 1, 3, and 4 all look normal, its plug number 2 that caused concern for me.


Plugs #1,3,4 all look like this.


Plug #2 appears to have some white deposits.

I did some research.

According to NGKSparkPlugs.com
Source:
https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-...d-a-spark-plug

Also, according to OnAllCylinders.com

Source:
http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/1...r-spark-plugs/

I did notice oil residue on the threads but nowhere on the electrodes.

My humble, honest assessment is that oil is leaking onto my plugs and that it is NOT, I HOPE, coolant, I hope.

How did I do? I am open for corrections.

Here is an extra picture of the sludge on my oil cap.


I will continue to ride around with my wrench to try and catch my misfire.

Thanks for reading!

ezone

Your pic under the heading of NGK shows long term oil burning, white ash buildup and that's not really all that evident in your #2 pic.

Plug #2 looks more like it's been splashed by something IMO, probably gonna be consistent with the P0302 misfire code and getting splashed by coolant once you get this nailed down.

Do the little beads come off the plug easily?

Oil cap.... What does the oil look like on the dipstick?
Look around in the valve cover under the cap, does the visible valvetrain also look milky?
Short trips and cold running can lead to condensation that collects in the cap, but does the oil look like chocolate milkshake?




Did you do this as a "hot restart" or did you let the engine cool down before trying it?
Seems to me this should be somewhat repeatable if you get the conditions right.


Radiator is still full?

eager2learn

Nope, tried scraping with my finger nails and they did not come off at all.

I definitely see chocolate milk in my valve train, albeit very little.

Oil on the dipstick is normal but in the middle of the stick, there is a small chocolate milkshake smudge.

Under the oil cap, the chocolate milk is a bit thicker, like sludge.
I mixed it around with a stick and scooped the chocolate milk up and what was left over was a clear liquid, I turned my cap over and clear liquid spilled out.

I did it as a hot restart. After driving my car with A/C blasting. As I was driving, my temp gauge was rising a bit so I turned it off and it restored back to normal.

My radiator was not exactly full, the water line was below the metal fins, I can tell because the top of the metal was dry.

Is there any signs I can look out for that tells me coolant is spraying on my plugs?

Thank you, ezone!

Cheers!

ezone

The radiator is supposed to always stay completely full under all conditions. These small cooling systems leave little room for error, any loss of efficiency can result in overheating.

Why haven't you refilled it, burped it, and kept the reservoir to the max line?

If you have been doing this, then where does the coolant go?

Sure. See post #44.

Got a cooling system pressure tester?

eager2learn

Ok!

Back with results.

I cleared my CEL to see if a P0302 error code pops back up, that way I know to check spark plug #2 instead of all of them.

It came back quickly, same error code. I did ezone's test and it is confirmed that there is some liquid coating the electrode of my plug.

I tried taking a picture for documentation but the liquid evaporated quickly.

HG breach I am assuming. If it is, I will pour some more HG sealant into my engine to see if that helps. Sadly, this is my only option for now.


Yeah, I have been filling up my radiator probably once every 3 weeks.

I am trying to figure this out too.

No, my local parts store may have one for rental. If it does, I'll do a test and come back with results.

Thanks for reading!

ezone

If it isn't leaking to the ground, then your engine us consuming it.

If using a liquid glass product (sodium silicate), you gotta follow the instructions to the letter.

eager2learn

Thanks for the advice, ezone.

Alright, just wanted to do a quick update to let you know I've not forget about y'all.

My sealant is all poured in and in my system, although I did it incorrectly and did not set my t-stat gasket on right when putting my system back together so most of my sealant poured onto the ground when I went for a test drive, nevertheless, my Honda starts beautifully and is now purring like a proud lion. 3 weeks in and no misfire symptoms. My overflow still needs refilling, hopefully the system is still burping.
All in all, we are back in business boys! You will never truly appreciate a successful engine start up until you experience cylinder misfire symptoms such as mine, but I digress.

The Honda did threw some misfire codes, I did the ezone test and found no foul play so I replaced them all. A blessing in disguise because I found my local auto parts retailer carried the OEM NGK brand plugs: NGK ZFR5F-11.

My car threw another CEL, this time dealing with the fuel system, I checked my scan tool's Mode $06 monitor and the check failed under TID $27. Brief online research tells me it may be my EVAP. Further investigation is required. Gonna try to figure this one out on my own, boys.

Thanks for reading! Until next time!

-Eager2Learn

eager2learn

Ok I'm back. The CEL was p1456 EVAP canister. I replaced my gas cap and we are good.
My HG sealant held on through the 100 degrees summer weather. Although I used distilled water for my coolant and eventually it evaporated away. I didn't bother to refill it over time so my distilled water ran low and my car overheated now my HG is definitely breached.

I honestly believe if I kept topping off my car then I would've been ok.

I'm going to do an engine swap now.

Thanks for everybody's help!!

eager2learn

YOOOOOOOOOOOOO IM BACK!

The leak wasn't due to a bad HG (I think my sealant did the trick.)

My neighborhood garage mechanic, Phil, took 1 look at the leak and immediately said, "Heater hose."



Well it is summer now. im going to replace all the hoses. flush the radiator and see how it holds up to the 300 degree celcius weather.

ill be reporting back.

ezone

Surely that should have been found with a cooling system pressure test mentioned previously.....did you ever do that test?

eager2learn

No. I didn't have the tools. I think this hose burst happened way later when I did all the flushing, sealing, etc so I just gave up and said, "bad HG."

I'm excited.