Zealot Prime

Okay, so I recently tore apart the front suspension bits on my civic to replace the front control arms (there were some bad bushings and I figured it was a good chance to add a camber kit). Some of the bolts on the passenger side were rather difficult, to the point where we accidentally pulled the axle out. Afterwards, I started getting vibration when turning right, particularly while accelerating, vehicle speed related. So, I figured we had probably ruined the axle. We replaced it, but after a few min of driving the problem came back. In fact, it's actually a bit worse(it does it when going strait). I took the wheel off and found a line of grease surrounding the inner joint, which I traced to a tiny tear in the boot.

So, my question is: Do you think the loss of grease caused the new axle to fail immediately and in the same way, or is something else causing the problem?

Also, second question: when I went to refill the transmission, fluid was apparently already at the fill hole. Does that seem reasonable that the trans could have been overfilled to the point where it was still full after the axle was replaced?

ezone

No, loss of grease would still need some mileage to wear out a joint, it wouldn't be immediate.

Camber kit? Are you lowered? You got one side leaning inward more then the other? (that would be the first thing to correct if you do)

Lugnuts all tight?


SO if the front wheels are straight and even, my next guess would be

Kinda sounds like one of the inner CV joints is bottoming out in its cup when you load the powertrain to one side (go around a turn fast, the weight of the drivetrain causes it to shift -- plus the most loaded suspension is shoved inward during the turn-- this all means the axle (inner CV cup) must accommodate the movement or else it will bind)

Check the "plunge" of the axles.
Raise car so front wheels hang in the air
remove both of the big axle nuts
push the axle stub into the hole as far as it will go
measure (gauge) how far each side can be pushed inward before it stops, each side should plunge about the same depth, one should not be significantly different from the other side.

If one is significantly different from the other, check if the drivetrain is not centered in the engine compartment.


Is the height of the fill hole above or below the axle hole?

Zealot Prime

Yeah, I'm lowered a little bit. (it's got coilover sleeves set most of the way up)
Related to the camber, I had it aligned (although I have a couple of wheels off a different car right now so the alignment wasn't perfect) and the tires don't look like they're being worn like if they were skid/hopping.

I don't see how the driveline could have gotten off center though: The engine and transmission were never de-mounted and it was working for a few months since I bought the car. The only thing I can think of there is that the end of the splines on the old axle were slightly tapered and the new ones weren't. Maybe we didn't quite get the old axle all the way back in and the new one is wrong? (the car has a F23A with a prelude SI trans; I think the axles are from a Integra, but I couldn't get ahold of the previous owner to check)


the trans fill situation looks like this

ezone

Don't worry about any of that yet.


The only thing you changed was the ride height and the lean of the knuckles (camber), then you noticed this vibration problem, right?
Do the check I mentioned.



My reply was intended to make you think about your question.

Zealot Prime

I didn't change the ride height, it's set the same as it's been since I bought the car. And as I said, I had the car aligned, so the camber is supposedly set to zero. I changed both the upper and lower control arms.

I fully intend to do the check you mentioned when I have time, which should be tomorrow afternoon.

Is your point with the fluid level thing that the presence of fluid at the fill port proves that not all the fluid will leak out the axle hole, and that it's therefore probably fine?

ezone

OK, but it is lowered you said.

You said the issue was present before you installed the new axle, right? Did you compare lengths before install?

Although I can't figure yet how it would happen, the test would prove if one of the CV joints is lacking sufficient room to plunge as everything moves. (Joint bottoming out during a sideways load, that's the issue I pictured in my head from your description). Unless you just got a bad axle, it does happen.

Pretty much that's it.

Zealot Prime

It is lowered, yeah, I just haven't ever adjusted the ride height. Just changed the front control arms (popped the axle in the process) then put it back together and the problem started.

I couldn't get the axle nut off of the driver's side (even with like a 4ft pipe on the end of the breaker bar) so I couldn't test the plunge on that side. On the passenger side it goes in to the point where the end is basically even with the outside of the hub.

It kind of looks like the axle might be a few MM from going in all the way, so I think our current plan is to take the axle out and look closer to make sure it's the same as the old one. My understanding is that Integra axles are the right length and should go into that trans, the only potential issue being the inner spline section is a tiny bit short, so they could pop out?

Rhonda1

EZONE has the right idea and I would agree that the axel is not fully inserted into the tranny. I usually take a small mallet and get the axel as horizontal as possible, then I hit the end of it to make sure it fully seats in the tranny. Another thing to add to this is to put some anti-seize paste to the end of the axel so the nut will not be impossible to remove the next time if/when you need to work on it again.

ezone

Heat the nut?

Zealot Prime

So I've been banging my head against the car whenever I have free time and have come to the conclusion that it's not the axle that's causing the problem. It's generally possible to drive the car a short distance without problem, but then when turning right, it feels like something breaks loose and the car starts vibrating any time you're not turning right.

The lighting in this picture is kinda crappy so it's hard to see, but there's damage to the brake heat shield that indicates the control arm has been hitting it.

The new control arms have these little sleeves in them (presumably since they're aluminum). On the passenger side, the bottom sleeve is hitting the tapered bit at the base of the stud before it's all together, so there's still some play.

it's not torqued down in the pic, but it's tight.

Also, the sleeve on the top never contacts the stud, you can put it on all the way until it contacts the boot:


The only reason I can think of for why this could be happening when it went together fine on the other side is that we had to replace that ball joint, so maybe the new one is different/wrong?

ezone

Oh hell, I didn't realize you put on aftermarket aluminum LCAs. That just opens up a whole bunch of possible problem areas.
It looks wrong wrong wrong to me in the pics, the ball joint looks like it is dropped into the hole in the LCA (boot is billowed out around the arm for some reason), while the nut and washer should be tightened up against the bottom side of the arm, there shouldn't be room between washer and arm. That leaves a lot of room for things to move up and down AND in and out with side loads (during turns).

BUT I can't see it firsthand from where I sit, it just appears very wrong to me.

SMH.
The sleeve or insert is probably intended to take up excessive clearance because the tapered hole is too big for the joint stud.


The rotor backing plate looks like it got beat to death by someone swinging a hammer to beat the ball joint loose from the lower control arm in the past. It's just sheetmetal, not a big deal, not critical.

Zealot Prime

Yeah, your assessment seems to be about the same as mine then. Now if I could just figure out what the hell to do about it.

ezone

Fix the bushings in the original arms and put them back on?

Zealot Prime

Except they already got thrown away. Might have to just get some junkyard ones. Maybe I could get the bushings from these put in them?

Also, curiously, the ball joints do seem to be different. The driver's side, which seemed to go on correctly, has a 17mm nut, whereas the one we replaced on the passenger side is a 19. I checked at the parts store, the part that's in there is the one they show as right. I'll probably check to see if the washer/sleeves from the driver's side work on the passenger side, since if they do that would tell me that the ball joint is in fact the culprit and if they don't it's the sleeves.

ezone

I learned long ago to never throw out anything removed from a car until the new part has proven itself good.

Maybe that's a reason why my garage and basement are full of car and Harley parts....some for cars I haven't owned in years. LOL

You're on your own there. I'll guess no.


The nut is not the deciding factor, as just about any nut with the correct threads and design will usually suffice. You could just swap the nuts right and left to prove that.

The stud of the ball joint is the usual concern, is it the correct length and diameter, are they identical to the other? Identical to original?