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Let's say you buy a 2001 Civic EX 4 door from VA, with 105k, one lady owned miles. You also know it is still wearing the original timing belt.
Is it possible to carefully inspect a timing belt, and determine to a very high degree of accuracy, that it safe to drive the car a while longer before replacing? I am aware the instruction manual says to replace at 84 months or 110k, whichever comes first...but I have read about Civic timing belts lasting 250K before breaking...and I know that is probably an extreme example. I just don't want to be badgered for spending another 750 on this car right now, enough to take this risk...

 
Rep Power: 519

Short answer is NO.

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The cars that got to 250k on an original belt probably did it long before the 5 year mark.

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Are you a gambler? Do you win a lot?
Do ya feel lucky, punk?

You are driving on borrowed time. 12 years is a he!! of a long time for a timing belt.

There isn't any good way for the average Joe to determine the physical health of the timing belt just by looking at it, if it looks good from the outside.

If it looks bad--dry rot, cracking, etc., that is obvious and certainly means it is well past time to replace it.

If it still APPEARS good looking, you have no way of knowing just how close to the end it really is.

Staring at it really can't tell you if there are stress cracks or the condition of the teeth, you have to remove the belt and flex it to see them. If you got that far, just do the entire job, throw a new belt on. The timing belt itself is $25 retail.


If a shop wants $750 for the timing belt job, I'd want to see a complete breakdown of what all they are going to do for that price, and it had better be legit.
Ask other friends who is good (who can solve car problems, not just work on them).
Prices vary, and you shouldn't shop on price. Price does not determine quality and workmanship. This applies to any profession.

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How is your math?
Git to figgerin' here....

Full retail prices from Honda right now, and all of the parts I can think of at the moment that someone could possibly want to sell you:

Timing belt $25
Tensioner pulley and spring set, $100
PS belt $17
Alt&AC belt $22
Water pump $81
Genuine coolant $20
Valve cover gasket set $40

I seriously doubt you really need these, but some people like doing them every time:
Cam seal $8
Front crank seal $6

Labor should be around 4.0-4.5 hours for the whole mess above (according to Alldata), multiply by the hourly labor rate. The rate in the shop here is about $110/hr.
Add shop supplies charge, maybe another $20.
And tax. Don't forget the tax man.

Got a total yet? Is it close?


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The reality of a timing belt job here is you would get a timing belt, and 2 accessory belts.
The water pump gets checked when the rest comes apart. Coolant goes with the pump, of course.
Labor is (Alldata)3.5 X hourly shop rate if it gets the pump, or 3.0 for the timing belt alone.

Stop.
Everything else gets reused if it is still looking good.

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On the 2nd or 3rd timing belt job here, it is recommended that it should get the tensioner pulley (at over 150k).

Most don't need the cam and crank seal until the 2nd or 3rd belt job, they rarely are leaking at 100k. (In my experience.)

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Now I'll ask you again, how is your math?
Figure out the cost to pull the cylinder head off and do a valve job (16 of those little buggers) because the timing belt BROKE, due to neglect.

Add a fee for embarrassment when you tell your friends.

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More mathing:

Now, most of us know those engines tend to blow the head gasket at around 100k. Has it already been done?
Price a head gasket job, and the timing belt and water pump should get bolted in for a minimal amount of extra labor.

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Too much info?

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

Ezone - thanks for your very detailed and frank response! Recon I'll go ahead and get a timing belt replacement.
I'm an old f**t, and don't plan to show or race my Civic, so the humiliation factor of breaking a timing belt wouldn't be a factor, but I just had a new cat converter pipe assy installed for around 460 including labor, and just bought car in Jan for 2250, so another 6-700 isn't that much more, I suppose. Wife doesn't understand why I need to spend another 700 when the car runs fine!!
You mention needing a head gasket at 100K - wouldn't that be more for someone who drives competitively? I bought this car because I wanted another car in the driveway that I thought would go to 300k. I've had numerous 4 cylinder Japanese cars, some with over 250k, and have never had a head gasket issue. My 1995 T100 3.4 V6 pickup was recalled at 100k to install new head gaskets, but since then, has gone another 200k without any problems at all. I didn't think head gaskets were an issue in cars these days..

 
Rep Power: 519

Ezone - thanks for your very detailed and frank response!

You[re welcome.

Recon I'll go ahead and get a timing belt replacement.
I'm an old f**t,

Some consider me to be the same, but it seems the average of the people on this forum is far younger than me.



but I just had a new cat converter pipe assy installed for around 460 including labor,

Hmmmm. That sounds far cheaper than factory parts. Wait and see how long it lasts and if it passes the emissions tests later on.


and just bought car in Jan for 2250,

That sounds cheap, so you should have plenty of room to dump more money in it and still be ahead.


Wife doesn't understand why I need to spend another 700 when the car runs fine!!

Of course not. Ask why she needs a new dryer (or anything) when the old one still works.

700 sounds high for a plain timing belt job.
But then, I try to avoid doing the numbers. I just fix the cars.


You mention needing a head gasket at 100K - wouldn't that be more for someone who drives competitively?

Nope.
It doesn't seem to matter who you are or how you drove it.
Search the issue in this forum and on google.
I'd guess anywhere from 50-150k+ they like to blow.
Not every last one does it, but plenty do it.Didn't mean to scare you with that.

Don't search for automatic transmission problems either. And don't look for suspension or radio or AC or windows or, or, or, or.......
Get it?
Some don't fail. Some do.


One customer got rid of an 04 Civic last(?) year, it had a quarter million miles, with no major work other than the timing belt and tensioner pulley set at 220k. (The spring broke on the tensioner and caused it to quit, but without severe damage to the engine).... It needed the cat too, it rattled loud.


I bought this car because I wanted another car in the driveway that I thought would go to 300k.

Here in the rust belt, you have to rack up the miles before the car rusts away.Yours only has 100k on it, and average lifespan here is 15-20 years.....you can drive another 200k in 8 years?



I've had numerous 4 cylinder Japanese cars, some with over 250k, and have never had a head gasket issue. My 1995 T100 3.4 V6 pickup was recalled at 100k to install new head gaskets, but since then, has gone another 200k without any problems at all.

And I know of some of those Toyo V6 head gasket jobs done SO sloppy that they didn't last one whole year. Then the dealer wouldn't honor their own warranty on their workmanship, so the owners were stuck with crap that they had to pay even more out of pocket expenses to keep on the road.

Every car line, every model, has its own particular set of quirks and issues.
We can't always predict what will happen or when, but when someone says "this that and the other happened to such-and-such a car, someone who sees them every day can guess what it will be based on what they see every day, and be pretty accurate about it.

I didn't think head gaskets were an issue in cars these days..

Why not? Every engine still uses them.
Overheat almost ANY engine and it will blow the head gasket...and warp the head(s).On this engine, it can happen. They do blow.

I have ideas on how the engineers could have made it less likely to happen, but nobody asked me for my opinions when they were designing the engine.

 
Rep Power: 0

Ezone, thanks again for your thorough reply to my questions! I put a Walker converter pipe assembly on it from Advance, so it should be a good one. I paid 150 more for it than the cheaper options. Virginia is pretty lax on emissions. I live in rural VA and have to commute to work, so I pile on the miles pretty quick. I'm very easy on my cars, so I hope the Civic lasts a good long time - after I get the new timing belt installed! Thanks again!!

 
Rep Power: 211

I think most of the failure of head gaskets occurs in engines where the block and head are two different materials (which is most engines today). The coefficient of expansion for aluminum is about two times that of cast iron. My guess would be that as long as the engine is within normal operating temperatures the gasket is fine but when the engine overheats the difference between the aluminum and cast iron is more than the gasket can compensate for. If this is true, than a cast iron block and head or aluminum block and head would be preferable but in one case there is extra weight and the other extra cost. I also suspect that the number of blown head gaskets could be lower if the manufactures specified higher quality gaskets.

 
Rep Power: 519

These engines blow the head gasket without ever overheating. If they overheat, it happens AFTER the head gasket blew.

What do you think causes it now?

 
Rep Power: 211

Re-read what I said. I did not say all gasket failure were due to overheating but that most engines with different materials for the block and head that overheat would have a gasket failure. My point was when you have two parts of an engine expanding at different rates maintaining a seal between them is more difficult than parts expanding at the same rate.

You stated you have "ideas on how the engineers could have made it less likely to happen" so lets hear them.

Also "Overheat almost ANY engine and it will blow the head gasket..." is not true. I have seen many cast iron block and head engines overheated almost to the point of seizing with no damage to the head gasket.

 
Rep Power: 314

Aluminum block + head = same material. It has nothing to do with that.

1/2 blow due to overheating.

1/2 blow for unknown reasons. To me anyway. Although I think it has something to do with the very low torque spec and non stretch head bolts.

If your engine overheats to the point of seizing without blowing a head gasket something is wrong. Head gaskets are designed to go before anything else does, its a safety device and purposely the weakest point. This is especially true in race cars, instead of tossing a rod they will blow a head gasket and save the engine. However, if your driving your car and overheating it that badly youve got other problems.

 
Rep Power: 519

Re-read what I said.

I have a reading comprehension problem. Isn't that obvious?


I did not say all gasket failure were due to overheating but that most engines with different materials for the block and head that overheat would have a gasket failure.

You did say "most", I wasn't disputing that. I just took that line out of context and used it for an example, and I was talking about only this 7th gen Civic engine in particular.

You stated you have "ideas on how the engineers could have made it less likely to happen" so lets hear them.

IMHO, TTY head bolts would help extend the service life of the gasket in this particular engine (iron block and aluminum head), and that's assuming that this MLS head gasket is of the same type and quality as the other MLS gaskets currently in use that DON'T have the problems. Seems like when their other engines went to TTY head bolts and MLS gaskets, the head gasket life went up dramatically. No idea why this engine didn't get the same treatment at the factory. Other manufacturers went to TTY+MLS several years ago and their product reliability went up.

I think it would be interesting to change to some TTY head bolts in a few of these engines and see how long they last.

Also "Overheat almost ANY engine

Emphasize the word "almost" there, just like your word "most" above.


and it will blow the head gasket..." is not true.

When I typed that, I was thinking of the 80+ % of todays small car and light truck engines that have aluminum heads.


I have seen many cast iron block and head engines overheated almost to the point of seizing with no damage to the head gasket.

I have seen iron/iron engines from the 60s run overheated to the point of locking up, and still run when they cool down. Some are reported to run great shortly before they lock up (old Ford FE series engines?)

But modern engines don't withstand the same abuse as the old engines. Castings are thinner to shave off weight.
Low tension rings don't survive worth a darn after a severe overheat.
Nylon and plastic give way, they were already near the upper end of their temp ranges before the overheat.

Aluminum heads warp easily.

Northstar engines have tremendous problems with blown head gaskets, and they are aluminum block and heads. They like to pull threads out of the block castings.
Lunch is over, gotta run.

/Not proofread.

 
Rep Power: 211

Sorry it took a while to get back, something came up at work that took all my time. I don't like answering in a rush because I don't always compose a sentence or explain my thoughts as well as I would like.

It sounds like we agree the root cause is aluminum heads on a cast iron block, I misunderstood your earlier post and thought you were saying it was not an issue. As you mention the majority of cars have cast iron blocks with aluminum heads and no issues so it can be done. I would agree with your solution from a design standpoint but I would have to wonder how well a better head gasket would work as a fix. I say this because few manufactures specify the best parts available and it may be that Honda's replacements are better then what was used at the factory.

I guess I'm showing my age even thinking about iron block and head engines. One of my early jobs ( in the '70s )was in the R&D lab at a company that designed fuel and emission systems for GM, Ford and Chrysler. Temperature was a big issue back then and we used to run engines on dynos well beyond "normal" temperatures to see how the fuel system would behave. Even with the abuse there was never a head gasket failure and many of the engines ended up going to guys in the lab or machine shop when we were finished with them.

Your comment about GM's Northstar engine is interesting. I remember that at one time they were setup so that they could run without coolant for up to a 100 miles and I always wondered how well that worked. I guess the answer is not too well.

As you said, lunch is over.