|Dezod Motorsports| The end all of D17 turbo posts...
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|Dezod Motorsports| The end all of D17 turbo posts...
Ok. Due to some people's confusion and such about turbo'ing the D17 engines, I would like to start by beginning from the basics. What is needed in the process:
Turbo Manifold
Turbo
Wastegate
Blow Off Valve
Downpipe
Intercooler pipes
Clamps
Couplers
Oil lines
Intercooler
Larger Injectors
Engine management system
These are the basic essentials of the getting your intake manifold pressurized. However, there may be some variations as to what is needed based upon how the system is built etc...
Let's start with turbo manifolds. The most popular are T25 and T3 footed manifolds. HKS makes a T25 footed manifold for those looking to put around with an internally gated turbo and make some decent power. (pictured below)
For those who want to make a bit more power on less boost and have some serious fun, we offer our series of T3 manifolds. The entry level manifold we offer is this one:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motors..._stainless.cfm
This unit is a great starting block into getting the job done and making some good power along with it.
For the parties that want to go ahead and look for 250+whp on their fully built D17, we here at Dezod have conjured up this:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_d17_racemanifold.cfm
This is our D17 race turbo manifold and is prepped race ready with long tube runners to make for high revving, huge power.
This point in the lecture, leads me to the wastegate. Depending on what manifold and turbo selection you are going with, you may need an external wastegate.
http://www.dezod.com/pd_tial.cfm
Now, if your using a T25 footed turbo, chances are your internally gated, using an HKS manifold and will not need the TiAL unit pictured above. See picture below for internally-gated turbo:
If you want some serious punch with your breakfast, look into something along the lines of a T3/T4 turbocharger that is externally gated (requiring our manifold and a TIAL wastegate (pictured above)). These turbos come standard in our kits: (pictured below is a Dual Ball Bearing edition with polished compressor housing)
Now, of course EVERY turbo system needs a blow-off valve to expunge the boost pressure that is not needed after the throttle plate is closed, you can feel free to pick one of your choice. We provide the massive TIAL 50mm BOV with our turbo systems:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_tial_billet.cfm
Of course you can use HKS, GReddy etc......Just remember that you will also need the appropriate flange. TIAL includes their flange for ease.
http://www.dezod.com/cat_universal_blow_off_valves.cfm
Your turbo needs to expunge exhaust gases that helped it create power and are exited via the turbine housing. The only non-custom, shelf stocking downpipe for the D17 that retains AC, ABS and PS is our downpipe, which only mates to our turbo, manifold and downpipe:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motorsports_v3.cfm
An intercooler takes the turbo's compressed air and cools it to make it dense and ready to injection into the combustion chambers! Remember, the colder, cooler, condensed air makes more power!!!! So this is our vertical flow intercooler, which is designed for the D17 to be used with our turbo components and intercooler piping:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motors...oolercivic.cfm
Intercooler pipes, we sell ours which will require some modification due to the fact of the entire civic world is into different things and different fascias etc...So, our pipes provide enough piping to do something a little more unusual if needed:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motors...ntercooler.cfm
Oil lines, check ours out. Helps attach the oil pressure sending unit to deliver oil to the CHRA of your turbo and recirculate it back into the pan. All fittings are included:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motorsports_oil.cfm
Clamps and couplers, you can use cheap-o worm gear from Home Depot or Lowes, or you can use T-bolts, which are less prone to come undone under high boost. Both can be purchased through us, you will need to call to order 716-362-8771.
Silicone, we only recommend a minimum of 4 ply silicone to prevent the coupler bursting under boost pressure. We carry an array of them in various sizes and colors:
http://www.dezod.com/cat-silicone-couplers.cfm
Now onto the arguably the most trickiest part of a novice adding forced induction into an N/A car is the fuel and engine management system. This is why we saved the best for last.
Let's start with Fuel. The stock injectors will not cut anything more than 1-2 PSI, so let's not even begin to entertain the notion of those being able to keep up with the new turbo system.
The old solution used to be RSX Type S injectors, which are 310cc, but they only support around 150-175whp before they are maxxed out. So with that being said, unless your planning on spending $3K+ for 40whp, you might as well forget that idea too.
The newer solutions come from an unlikely source and competitor, the SRT-4. These injectors will work on the D17, but are becoming a little more expensive and harder to find. Some use junk yards, some ebay, some forums etc......These do require some new clips, which are sold here at Dezod:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dodge_neon_s...dividually.cfm
The newest and most promising brand new solution, which comes in a 525cc format with clips included is the Deatsch Werks injector, which is sold exclusively through Dezod Motorsports.
http://www.dezod.com/pd_deatsch_werk...udes_clips.cfm
These injectors will harbor most of the communities non-built motor needs to make power.
The final straw, which can arguably make or break your entire investment, the brains behind the operation is the engine management system. There are 2 overall choices, either go with a standalone ecu or a piggyback.
A standalone is fully replacing the stock ECU and you program all the fuel and iignition needs for your engine. This is truly the best money can buy and requires some decent $$ to tune and set-up, but once it's done, it drives like a stock turbo car. 100% reliability. There are 2 choices, AEM or Hondata. Each has their ups and downs. AEM is available here at Dezod.
http://www.dezod.com/pd_aem_standalone_emskseries.cfm
On the piggyback side of the coin, there are a few more choices, which all are less expensive and can get a mild, good job done. There are the GReddy E-manage, AEM FIC, A'PEXi AFC-Neo or the PCS XFC.
The quick and dirty on each:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_greddy_emana..._universal.cfm
GReddy e-manage-Cheap unit. Can control fuel and ignition and does an OK job of it. It struggles with too large of injectors and can cause an unusual MAP sensor error. It does a decent job with fuel if you purchase the supplimental fuel injector harness. The igniton side of it leaves much to be desired and barely works right, and once again another harness needs to be bought. If you need the program it off your laptop, once again another piece needs to be purchased called the support tool. Overall, you get what you pay for and it will do some of the job correctly more info here:
http://www.dezod.com/files/FICvsEMAN.pdf
A'PEXi NEO is ANOTHER cheapo unit. Does fuel and VTEC. Does both the SAFC AND VAFCs jobs and is full color. Does fuel and a mediocre job of it. No ignition timing at all..........
http://www.dezod.com/pd_apexi_afc.cfm
PCS XFC more expensive unit, but offers some good fuel control. Can be hooked to a wideband O2. Fairly easy to tune, and comes with the software. A supplimental fuel system can be added on to help raise fuel pressure in line, and helps you run more fuel at higher pressure to help prevent detonation. Decent unit overall, and does not control timing:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_powertrain_control_systems.cfm
Last but not least, the new kid on the block, AEM FIC. This unit control s fuel like the PCS XFC and does a good job of it. Controls huge injectors with ease. Controls timing well and accurately (only retards it). Overall a good unit for the $$ and comes fully equipped for a hair over $400
http://www.dezod.com/pd_aem_fuel_ign...-universal.cfm
If your looking for the best and easiest way to couple all of the parts referenced into an entire kit, please view here:
http://www.dezod.com/cat_turbo_kits.cfm
That is all for now. My fingers are tired.....
Turbo Manifold
Turbo
Wastegate
Blow Off Valve
Downpipe
Intercooler pipes
Clamps
Couplers
Oil lines
Intercooler
Larger Injectors
Engine management system
These are the basic essentials of the getting your intake manifold pressurized. However, there may be some variations as to what is needed based upon how the system is built etc...
Let's start with turbo manifolds. The most popular are T25 and T3 footed manifolds. HKS makes a T25 footed manifold for those looking to put around with an internally gated turbo and make some decent power. (pictured below)
For those who want to make a bit more power on less boost and have some serious fun, we offer our series of T3 manifolds. The entry level manifold we offer is this one:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motors..._stainless.cfm
This unit is a great starting block into getting the job done and making some good power along with it.
For the parties that want to go ahead and look for 250+whp on their fully built D17, we here at Dezod have conjured up this:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_d17_racemanifold.cfm
This is our D17 race turbo manifold and is prepped race ready with long tube runners to make for high revving, huge power.
This point in the lecture, leads me to the wastegate. Depending on what manifold and turbo selection you are going with, you may need an external wastegate.
http://www.dezod.com/pd_tial.cfm
Now, if your using a T25 footed turbo, chances are your internally gated, using an HKS manifold and will not need the TiAL unit pictured above. See picture below for internally-gated turbo:
If you want some serious punch with your breakfast, look into something along the lines of a T3/T4 turbocharger that is externally gated (requiring our manifold and a TIAL wastegate (pictured above)). These turbos come standard in our kits: (pictured below is a Dual Ball Bearing edition with polished compressor housing)
Now, of course EVERY turbo system needs a blow-off valve to expunge the boost pressure that is not needed after the throttle plate is closed, you can feel free to pick one of your choice. We provide the massive TIAL 50mm BOV with our turbo systems:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_tial_billet.cfm
Of course you can use HKS, GReddy etc......Just remember that you will also need the appropriate flange. TIAL includes their flange for ease.
http://www.dezod.com/cat_universal_blow_off_valves.cfm
Your turbo needs to expunge exhaust gases that helped it create power and are exited via the turbine housing. The only non-custom, shelf stocking downpipe for the D17 that retains AC, ABS and PS is our downpipe, which only mates to our turbo, manifold and downpipe:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motorsports_v3.cfm
An intercooler takes the turbo's compressed air and cools it to make it dense and ready to injection into the combustion chambers! Remember, the colder, cooler, condensed air makes more power!!!! So this is our vertical flow intercooler, which is designed for the D17 to be used with our turbo components and intercooler piping:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motors...oolercivic.cfm
Intercooler pipes, we sell ours which will require some modification due to the fact of the entire civic world is into different things and different fascias etc...So, our pipes provide enough piping to do something a little more unusual if needed:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motors...ntercooler.cfm
Oil lines, check ours out. Helps attach the oil pressure sending unit to deliver oil to the CHRA of your turbo and recirculate it back into the pan. All fittings are included:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dezod_motorsports_oil.cfm
Clamps and couplers, you can use cheap-o worm gear from Home Depot or Lowes, or you can use T-bolts, which are less prone to come undone under high boost. Both can be purchased through us, you will need to call to order 716-362-8771.
Silicone, we only recommend a minimum of 4 ply silicone to prevent the coupler bursting under boost pressure. We carry an array of them in various sizes and colors:
http://www.dezod.com/cat-silicone-couplers.cfm
Now onto the arguably the most trickiest part of a novice adding forced induction into an N/A car is the fuel and engine management system. This is why we saved the best for last.
Let's start with Fuel. The stock injectors will not cut anything more than 1-2 PSI, so let's not even begin to entertain the notion of those being able to keep up with the new turbo system.
The old solution used to be RSX Type S injectors, which are 310cc, but they only support around 150-175whp before they are maxxed out. So with that being said, unless your planning on spending $3K+ for 40whp, you might as well forget that idea too.
The newer solutions come from an unlikely source and competitor, the SRT-4. These injectors will work on the D17, but are becoming a little more expensive and harder to find. Some use junk yards, some ebay, some forums etc......These do require some new clips, which are sold here at Dezod:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_dodge_neon_s...dividually.cfm
The newest and most promising brand new solution, which comes in a 525cc format with clips included is the Deatsch Werks injector, which is sold exclusively through Dezod Motorsports.
http://www.dezod.com/pd_deatsch_werk...udes_clips.cfm
These injectors will harbor most of the communities non-built motor needs to make power.
The final straw, which can arguably make or break your entire investment, the brains behind the operation is the engine management system. There are 2 overall choices, either go with a standalone ecu or a piggyback.
A standalone is fully replacing the stock ECU and you program all the fuel and iignition needs for your engine. This is truly the best money can buy and requires some decent $$ to tune and set-up, but once it's done, it drives like a stock turbo car. 100% reliability. There are 2 choices, AEM or Hondata. Each has their ups and downs. AEM is available here at Dezod.
http://www.dezod.com/pd_aem_standalone_emskseries.cfm
On the piggyback side of the coin, there are a few more choices, which all are less expensive and can get a mild, good job done. There are the GReddy E-manage, AEM FIC, A'PEXi AFC-Neo or the PCS XFC.
The quick and dirty on each:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_greddy_emana..._universal.cfm
GReddy e-manage-Cheap unit. Can control fuel and ignition and does an OK job of it. It struggles with too large of injectors and can cause an unusual MAP sensor error. It does a decent job with fuel if you purchase the supplimental fuel injector harness. The igniton side of it leaves much to be desired and barely works right, and once again another harness needs to be bought. If you need the program it off your laptop, once again another piece needs to be purchased called the support tool. Overall, you get what you pay for and it will do some of the job correctly more info here:
http://www.dezod.com/files/FICvsEMAN.pdf
A'PEXi NEO is ANOTHER cheapo unit. Does fuel and VTEC. Does both the SAFC AND VAFCs jobs and is full color. Does fuel and a mediocre job of it. No ignition timing at all..........
http://www.dezod.com/pd_apexi_afc.cfm
PCS XFC more expensive unit, but offers some good fuel control. Can be hooked to a wideband O2. Fairly easy to tune, and comes with the software. A supplimental fuel system can be added on to help raise fuel pressure in line, and helps you run more fuel at higher pressure to help prevent detonation. Decent unit overall, and does not control timing:
http://www.dezod.com/pd_powertrain_control_systems.cfm
Last but not least, the new kid on the block, AEM FIC. This unit control s fuel like the PCS XFC and does a good job of it. Controls huge injectors with ease. Controls timing well and accurately (only retards it). Overall a good unit for the $$ and comes fully equipped for a hair over $400
http://www.dezod.com/pd_aem_fuel_ign...-universal.cfm
If your looking for the best and easiest way to couple all of the parts referenced into an entire kit, please view here:
http://www.dezod.com/cat_turbo_kits.cfm
That is all for now. My fingers are tired.....
Last edited by dezod; Feb 7, 2008 at 11:38 AM.
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good little write up.
one comment:
for engine management there is also Kpro using a K series ECU.
EDIT: i somehow missed that you did mention this but a write up could be informative to
and also a question.
is there any way to get the intercooler piping into teh engine bay without removing the AC/Power steering when the intercooler has inlet adn exit on opposite sides?
one comment:
for engine management there is also Kpro using a K series ECU.
EDIT: i somehow missed that you did mention this but a write up could be informative to
and also a question.
is there any way to get the intercooler piping into teh engine bay without removing the AC/Power steering when the intercooler has inlet adn exit on opposite sides?
Last edited by 03BlueCivic; Feb 7, 2008 at 12:03 PM.
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Re: |Dezod Motorsports| The end all of D17 turbo posts...
Good stuff Paul! This gives a great rundown of all the parts needed to get you on the road for a boosted setup. Mods, you may want to sticky this.
Are you going to address gauges and the necessity of a wideband O2 once your writer's cramp settle's down?
In response to 03Blue's question, yes. Just run it behind the IC and into the passenger side of the bay just like dual inlet/outlet that Paul offers.
Are you going to address gauges and the necessity of a wideband O2 once your writer's cramp settle's down?
In response to 03Blue's question, yes. Just run it behind the IC and into the passenger side of the bay just like dual inlet/outlet that Paul offers.
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Well done! I'm just sorry I had to blow my car up, start the T.E.A.R.S. thread, beg you for mercy, annoy everyone on here with my whining and then mention to you about making a basics guide!
Ha ha... this should really help some people and keep us from having to answer the same questions over and over again.
Ha ha... this should really help some people and keep us from having to answer the same questions over and over again.
Re: |Dezod Motorsports| The end all of D17 turbo posts...
there is actually one member that managed to get the piping run down the driver side near the headlight. cool guy, but he's in Iraq at the moment....i'll see if i can find some pics....
here's one..not sure why he chose to go that way, but it works for him...
here's one..not sure why he chose to go that way, but it works for him...
Last edited by tuningmycivic; Feb 7, 2008 at 01:09 PM.
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Tony alot of the LX guys can do that bc they don't have an ABS box. I remember Abmerop had his piping routed that way.
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that picture posted by tuningmycivic is an interesting way of doing it. i have an ex so its pretty cluttered in there but i am going to try some test fitting. if i cant get it to work i'll go with a setup like speedfoos described or get a different intercooler.
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owned. 
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Thanks guys! Of course I didn't even get into the debate about gauges....Not sure how I am going to do that one because it's sort of a loaded debate.....
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The way you get in to that Paul, is to mention the ones that you sell... LOL You are basically putting together an infomercial here.
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Agreed. State the requirements:
You need the following:
Boost gauge
Wideband and display (this should not be an option)
You should have the following:
Oil temperature
Oil Pressure
It's nice to have the following:
Voltage
Coolant temp
Exhaust Gas Temp
And well lookee here! At dezod.com we carry the finest range of UberBlammo Gauges and sending units. Step in to my office and I'll be happy to set you up with a set of gauges, a gauge pod, and matching chihuahua with rhinestone collar all for the low low price of $blah dollars.
link
link
link
You need the following:
Boost gauge
Wideband and display (this should not be an option)
You should have the following:
Oil temperature
Oil Pressure
It's nice to have the following:
Voltage
Coolant temp
Exhaust Gas Temp
And well lookee here! At dezod.com we carry the finest range of UberBlammo Gauges and sending units. Step in to my office and I'll be happy to set you up with a set of gauges, a gauge pod, and matching chihuahua with rhinestone collar all for the low low price of $blah dollars.
link
link
link
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This is cool, I like this because it brings turbos into perspective.
Oh yeah you forgot one thing on the list of things you NEED to have in order to have a turbo....
Money.
heh heh....eh.....bleh
Oh yeah you forgot one thing on the list of things you NEED to have in order to have a turbo....
Money.
heh heh....eh.....bleh
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lol.. i wasnt trying to own anyne rufus.... but ur right. i would like to know more abou to it also. but i guess i could go to the website...lol
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I have my Kpro instructions and it really only involved depinning about 6 wires.
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