Do I really need aftermarket sleeves to make 350 whp?
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From: Rockville, MD
Rep Power: 350 
Do I really need aftermarket sleeves to make 350 whp?
"It took 30 lbs of boost to make 460 whp on a stock sleeved D-Series. I guess the rumor that stock sleeved D-Series blocks not being able to take high horsepower is false."
- Evans Tuning
Quoted from Jeff Evans of Evans-tuning.com. If anyone knows anything about tuning Honda engines, they know who Jeff Evans is.
I've seen people swearing that stock sleeves won't hold x amount of horsepower. Even in my own build thread, everyone seems to have a misconception that you NEED sleeves. This couldn't be FARTHER from the truth.
Anyways, read the details here:
http://www.full-race.com/pink_sohc.php
- Evans Tuning
Quoted from Jeff Evans of Evans-tuning.com. If anyone knows anything about tuning Honda engines, they know who Jeff Evans is.
I've seen people swearing that stock sleeves won't hold x amount of horsepower. Even in my own build thread, everyone seems to have a misconception that you NEED sleeves. This couldn't be FARTHER from the truth.
Anyways, read the details here:
http://www.full-race.com/pink_sohc.php
sure, you can make 350whp on stock sleeves, thats not the problem. if you did any real research you would know that the pinks build up of the EG hatch was simply for that race only and they specifically said that they were going to build it for as much power as possible on stock sleeves with the expectation that it wouldnt last much longer after they finished the race. they were trying to build it for as cheap as possible, hence why they didnt sleeve it.
and if you knew anything about turbo d-series' you would know that they have trouble over 300whp on stock sleeves. look on h-t, all you will see if people saying that you need sleeves after 300whp and several testimonies about stock sleeves cracking around that mark. plus the fact that the stock headgasket is going to stand no chance what-so-ever over 300whp and you will probally be changing it out every couple weeks when it blows.
and sure, you can make 350whp on stock sleeves, i dont doubt that. i woulnt be suprised at all to see you do that, but id like to see how your cylinder walls look after say 2-3 months with that much power.
have fun rebuilding ur block all over again when you crack your sleeves
btw, hope you plan on running race fuel with that kind of power...
anyways, good luck and let us know how they are holding up a couple months downt he road since thats what matters, not putting 350whp down on the dyno once and then just turning it down afetr that.
and if you knew anything about turbo d-series' you would know that they have trouble over 300whp on stock sleeves. look on h-t, all you will see if people saying that you need sleeves after 300whp and several testimonies about stock sleeves cracking around that mark. plus the fact that the stock headgasket is going to stand no chance what-so-ever over 300whp and you will probally be changing it out every couple weeks when it blows.
and sure, you can make 350whp on stock sleeves, i dont doubt that. i woulnt be suprised at all to see you do that, but id like to see how your cylinder walls look after say 2-3 months with that much power.
have fun rebuilding ur block all over again when you crack your sleeves
btw, hope you plan on running race fuel with that kind of power...
anyways, good luck and let us know how they are holding up a couple months downt he road since thats what matters, not putting 350whp down on the dyno once and then just turning it down afetr that.
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From: Rockville, MD
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This car in on stock sleeves. It was making around 305 whp for about eight months on the greddy kit before putting on the new mods and bumping it up to 340 whp. He's been at this power level for about 3 months now and hasn't had any issues with his engine, whatsoever. Oh and btw, he's using a stock headgasket.
The guy who tuned it used neptune and knows what he is doing. There's the difference. So yeah, I'll report back in a few months and let you know I hadn't cracked my sleeves
This car in on stock sleeves. It was making around 305 whp for about eight months on the greddy kit before putting on the new mods and bumping it up to 340 whp. He's been at this power level for about 3 months now and hasn't had any issues with his engine, whatsoever. Oh and btw, he's using a stock headgasket.
The guy who tuned it used neptune and knows what he is doing. There's the difference. So yeah, I'll report back in a few months and let you know I hadn't cracked my sleeves
Originally Posted by andyman97
The guy who tuned it used neptune and knows what he is doing. There's the difference. So yeah, I'll report back in a few months and let you know I hadn't cracked my sleeves
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From: Rockville, MD
Rep Power: 350
Originally Posted by Spoolin
right....kinda like how you planned on reporting back to us when you were going to supposidly make 300whp on a stock block, but that never happened, did it?
And yeah, I'm a terrible person for not using a stock motor and changing my mind because I wanted more power, what was I thinking...?
Way to stay on topic! You try and say one thing and I back up my point with something and shut you down, so you have nothing to say and make it personal against me, way to go, assclown!
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Rep Power: 350 Well here's the thing, when you are making that much power, bearings alone aren't going to last for more than a year. You aren't going to get 100,000 miles out of a race engine. Replacing bearings/rings/etc. once a season is a given. But there are posts everywhere saying that stock d sleeves will crack with X amount of horsepower and it simply isn't true. It's like saying a d series motor can't make power......
Your not going to be beating on the car 24/7. you can hit 350whp on the stock sleeves. It's all about the cooling system and tunning. as long as you have a great smooth a/f ratio and on point igition tunning then you'll be alright.
Originally Posted by Spoolin
sure, you can make 350whp on stock sleeves, thats not the problem. if you did any real research you would know that the pinks build up of the EG hatch was simply for that race only and they specifically said that they were going to build it for as much power as possible on stock sleeves with the expectation that it wouldnt last much longer after they finished the race. they were trying to build it for as cheap as possible, hence why they didnt sleeve it.
and if you knew anything about turbo d-series' you would know that they have trouble over 300whp on stock sleeves. look on h-t, all you will see if people saying that you need sleeves after 300whp and several testimonies about stock sleeves cracking around that mark. plus the fact that the stock headgasket is going to stand no chance what-so-ever over 300whp and you will probally be changing it out every couple weeks when it blows.
and sure, you can make 350whp on stock sleeves, i dont doubt that. i woulnt be suprised at all to see you do that, but id like to see how your cylinder walls look after say 2-3 months with that much power.
have fun rebuilding ur block all over again when you crack your sleeves
btw, hope you plan on running race fuel with that kind of power...
anyways, good luck and let us know how they are holding up a couple months downt he road since thats what matters, not putting 350whp down on the dyno once and then just turning it down afetr that.
and if you knew anything about turbo d-series' you would know that they have trouble over 300whp on stock sleeves. look on h-t, all you will see if people saying that you need sleeves after 300whp and several testimonies about stock sleeves cracking around that mark. plus the fact that the stock headgasket is going to stand no chance what-so-ever over 300whp and you will probally be changing it out every couple weeks when it blows.
and sure, you can make 350whp on stock sleeves, i dont doubt that. i woulnt be suprised at all to see you do that, but id like to see how your cylinder walls look after say 2-3 months with that much power.
have fun rebuilding ur block all over again when you crack your sleeves
btw, hope you plan on running race fuel with that kind of power...
anyways, good luck and let us know how they are holding up a couple months downt he road since thats what matters, not putting 350whp down on the dyno once and then just turning it down afetr that.
Goes to show some times a little knoledge can be a bad thing.
I was having the head gasket problem when boosting over 14 psi till I installed the block guard apparently the sleeves walk under high boost just enough to cause small leaks on the HG that degarded withing a month.
Andyman Sleeves and block guard are a good idea, again Spooling had very usefull info and I didn't think he was harsh may be honest you just didn't like it hearing from reason and just shut thim down may be he is on to something I ppl are reporting stock sleeves breaking at 300hp I would listen is a lot of time and work messing with engine build ups I had mine for over two years now with no problems, then again I like my car and take car of it.
As far as I know you did promess 300 on stock and now you are promessing 350 on an engine you are still building cutting corners, well, hear it from your self.
Andyman over how much power will stock engine would take not to long ago:
Ok, I'm not asking this because I don't have a good idea, but to better inform those people who don't have a good idea.
First off, when I say stock, I mean an unchanged longblock. Stock rotating assembly, stock head. So far, I haven't seen anyone break the 250 whp barrier. I am just barely under that. And that is with a completely stock head and bottom end with just headstuds.
Now, my car isn't running right now due to an issue I had. When I put my engine in, I went to tap my oil pan but did not have the right sized tap for the fitting I had, so I had to go a size bigger. Being as the fitting was brass, I couldn't weld it in, so I used a nut on the inside of the oil pan. Over time, with crankcase and oil pressure, it eventually backed the nut off and blew through the bottom of my pan. Stupid mistakes cost you when you cut corners.
The car ran perfect to that point and I didn't damage anything from the amount of power I was making, so I want to clear that up first and foremost. I am in the process of getting it back together but I am taking my time and I refuse to rush and cut corners, I want to see this motor break from actual horsepower, not stupid, avoidable things.
That said, I'm going to put everything back together, do some exhaust upgrades and turn up the boost some. I'm shooting for right at 300whp. With where my car was before the dezod manifold, I pulled a 13.8. My best trap speed was 106. My 60' times were terrible, mainly due to track conditions, the fact that it was very cold and I had way too much pressure in my drag radials. With where it was, better track conditions and lower tire pressure with a warmer night, I would have hit a low 13 guaranteed.
Anyways, I see alot of people who seem to think that making this much power on a stock motor isn't possible and I plan to prove them wrong when I post up a dyno sheet and timeslip in a few weeks.
In the meantime, I'd like to know who thinks what and GOOD REASONS WHY. If you can't be civil about it, don't post, please.
And for just a point of reference, read this thread before you post:
http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=2860
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Originally Posted by Supermex
Andyman over how much power will stock engine would take not to long ago:
[B]Ok, I'm not asking this because I don't have a good idea, but to better inform those people who don't have a good idea.
First off, when I say stock, I mean an unchanged longblock. Stock rotating assembly, stock head. So far, I haven't seen anyone break the 250 whp barrier. I am just barely under that. And that is with a completely stock head and bottom end with just headstuds.
Now, my car isn't running right now due to an issue I had. When I put my engine in, I went to tap my oil pan but did not have the right sized tap for the fitting I had, so I had to go a size bigger. Being as the fitting was brass, I couldn't weld it in, so I used a nut on the inside of the oil pan. Over time, with crankcase and oil pressure, it eventually backed the nut off and blew through the bottom of my pan. Stupid mistakes cost you when you cut corners.
The car ran perfect to that point and I didn't damage anything from the amount of power I was making, so I want to clear that up first and foremost. I am in the process of getting it back together but I am taking my time and I refuse to rush and cut corners, I want to see this motor break from actual horsepower, not stupid, avoidable things.
That said, I'm going to put everything back together, do some exhaust upgrades and turn up the boost some. I'm shooting for right at 300whp. With where my car was before the dezod manifold, I pulled a 13.8. My best trap speed was 106. My 60' times were terrible, mainly due to track conditions, the fact that it was very cold and I had way too much pressure in my drag radials. With where it was, better track conditions and lower tire pressure with a warmer night, I would have hit a low 13 guaranteed.
Anyways, I see alot of people who seem to think that making this much power on a stock motor isn't possible and I plan to prove them wrong when I post up a dyno sheet and timeslip in a few weeks.
In the meantime, I'd like to know who thinks what and GOOD REASONS WHY. If you can't be civil about it, don't post, please.
And for just a point of reference, read this thread before you post:
http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=2860
[B]Ok, I'm not asking this because I don't have a good idea, but to better inform those people who don't have a good idea.
First off, when I say stock, I mean an unchanged longblock. Stock rotating assembly, stock head. So far, I haven't seen anyone break the 250 whp barrier. I am just barely under that. And that is with a completely stock head and bottom end with just headstuds.
Now, my car isn't running right now due to an issue I had. When I put my engine in, I went to tap my oil pan but did not have the right sized tap for the fitting I had, so I had to go a size bigger. Being as the fitting was brass, I couldn't weld it in, so I used a nut on the inside of the oil pan. Over time, with crankcase and oil pressure, it eventually backed the nut off and blew through the bottom of my pan. Stupid mistakes cost you when you cut corners.
The car ran perfect to that point and I didn't damage anything from the amount of power I was making, so I want to clear that up first and foremost. I am in the process of getting it back together but I am taking my time and I refuse to rush and cut corners, I want to see this motor break from actual horsepower, not stupid, avoidable things.
That said, I'm going to put everything back together, do some exhaust upgrades and turn up the boost some. I'm shooting for right at 300whp. With where my car was before the dezod manifold, I pulled a 13.8. My best trap speed was 106. My 60' times were terrible, mainly due to track conditions, the fact that it was very cold and I had way too much pressure in my drag radials. With where it was, better track conditions and lower tire pressure with a warmer night, I would have hit a low 13 guaranteed.
Anyways, I see alot of people who seem to think that making this much power on a stock motor isn't possible and I plan to prove them wrong when I post up a dyno sheet and timeslip in a few weeks.
In the meantime, I'd like to know who thinks what and GOOD REASONS WHY. If you can't be civil about it, don't post, please.
And for just a point of reference, read this thread before you post:
http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=2860
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From: Rockville, MD
Rep Power: 350
Originally Posted by Supermex
Spooling you do your homework man good job!
Goes to show some times a little knoledge can be a bad thing.
I was having the head gasket problem when boosting over 14 psi till I installed the block guard apparently the sleeves walk under high boost just enough to cause small leaks on the HG that degarded withing a month.
Goes to show some times a little knoledge can be a bad thing.
I was having the head gasket problem when boosting over 14 psi till I installed the block guard apparently the sleeves walk under high boost just enough to cause small leaks on the HG that degarded withing a month.
Andyman Sleeves and block guard are a good idea, again Spooling had very usefull info and I didn't think he was harsh may be honest you just didn't like it hearing from reason and just shut thim down may be he is on to something I ppl are reporting stock sleeves breaking at 300hp I would listen is a lot of time and work messing with engine build ups I had mine for over two years now with no problems, then again I like my car and take car of it.
As far as I know you did promess 300 on stock and now you are promessing 350 on an engine you are still building cutting corners, well, hear it from your self.
As far as I know you did promess 300 on stock and now you are promessing 350 on an engine you are still building cutting corners, well, hear it from your self.
I did plan to push 300 on a stock block but after taking some time to think about it, I decided that more power was possible. It's not like I said, I'm going to turbo my engine and make X horsepower and then totally ditched the project just for the hell of it, so I don't see the relevance of that. I've shown stock d16's that did it and are STILL doing it. I think some people on this forum would argue with me if I painted my car blue and showed it to them in person, they would still tell me it was silver
Bottom line, you don't really have anything to base your claims on. I do and have provided links throughout the thread. All I can do is show what other stock d series sleeves will take (which I have given TWO separate examples they will hold up to more than 300 whp without a problem.) Is a d17 the same exact thing as a d16? No, but the sleeves are close enough. Contemplate all you want, I will show the sheets and the slips to prove it......
Originally Posted by greenEX
Last edited by andyman97; Jun 19, 2006 at 05:37 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
[QUOTE=andyman97]So you don't think a stock headgasket will hold up to more than 14 psi? We shall see, I haven't pushed my engine to more than that yet but I certainly will.
What people are breaking sleeves at 300 hp? Got any links? There are people that are breaking things well below that I bet, but I bet it has everything to do with tuning and nothing with the amount of power. You say you've had your car boosted over 2 years, great for you. You have said yourself that you aren't trying to push it. You have yet to produce a dyno sheet that shows more than 250 whp. Again, that's great for you. I want to push this thing for max power.
I did plan to push 300 on a stock block but after taking some time to think about it, I decided that more power was possible. It's not like I said, I'm going to turbo my engine and make X horsepower and then totally ditched the project just for the hell of it, so I don't see the relevance of that. I've shown stock d16's that did it and are STILL doing it. I think some people on this forum would argue with me if I painted my car blue and showed it to them in person, they would still tell me it was silver
Bottom line, you don't really have anything to base your claims on. I do and have provided links throughout the thread. All I can do is show what other stock d series sleeves will take (which I have given TWO separate examples they will hold up to more than 300 whp without a problem.) Is a d17 the same exact thing as a d16? No, but the sleeves are close enough. Contemplate all you want, I will show the sheets and the slips to prove it......
Great contribution to the debate, st00pid newbs :_
The proff is in the pudding!
When you done and show 350 WHP I'll be the first one to tell you I was wrong!
Keep us inform and see how this works!
Till then no empty promeses please!
What people are breaking sleeves at 300 hp? Got any links? There are people that are breaking things well below that I bet, but I bet it has everything to do with tuning and nothing with the amount of power. You say you've had your car boosted over 2 years, great for you. You have said yourself that you aren't trying to push it. You have yet to produce a dyno sheet that shows more than 250 whp. Again, that's great for you. I want to push this thing for max power.
I did plan to push 300 on a stock block but after taking some time to think about it, I decided that more power was possible. It's not like I said, I'm going to turbo my engine and make X horsepower and then totally ditched the project just for the hell of it, so I don't see the relevance of that. I've shown stock d16's that did it and are STILL doing it. I think some people on this forum would argue with me if I painted my car blue and showed it to them in person, they would still tell me it was silver
Bottom line, you don't really have anything to base your claims on. I do and have provided links throughout the thread. All I can do is show what other stock d series sleeves will take (which I have given TWO separate examples they will hold up to more than 300 whp without a problem.) Is a d17 the same exact thing as a d16? No, but the sleeves are close enough. Contemplate all you want, I will show the sheets and the slips to prove it......
Great contribution to the debate, st00pid newbs :_
The proff is in the pudding!
When you done and show 350 WHP I'll be the first one to tell you I was wrong!
Keep us inform and see how this works!
Till then no empty promeses please!
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From: Rockville, MD
Rep Power: 350
Originally Posted by Supermex
The proff is in the pudding!
When you done and show 350 WHP I'll be the first one to tell you I was wrong!
Keep us inform and see how this works!
Till then no empty promeses please!
When you done and show 350 WHP I'll be the first one to tell you I was wrong!
Keep us inform and see how this works!
Till then no empty promeses please!
Originally Posted by andyman97
Dude, how are you going to tell anyone about proof and empty promises? You claim 300 whp and have given no proof whatsoever.
I hitted 300 hp then we tried again and sprong a pressure leak so I don't have the dyno sheet I could get one but it would be a full day and $75 at least, I have nothing to prove so I get one when I get one.
But I didn't made any promesses unlike you.
Just show us the money! then all arguments will be put to rest and you will be the king of all d17 kings.
And you are right I take care of my car you see I have more then just an engine,
I have custom made everything, not plug ins
paint , sound system, interior, suspension breaks etc.
So sure I take care of it.
Till then keep foot away from mouth
Last edited by Supermex; Jun 19, 2006 at 08:14 PM.
for 350whp, im speculating that youll be fine and if anything breaks it will be something weaker.
unfortunately I, nor have any of us built a d17 to the specs you plan, and so nobody will know until you have some proof of driveability and longevity.
and im happy everyone is going built, i plan on hitting over 250whp with my stock bottom end other than block guard. all ive seen is numbers in the high 240's.
unfortunately I, nor have any of us built a d17 to the specs you plan, and so nobody will know until you have some proof of driveability and longevity.
and im happy everyone is going built, i plan on hitting over 250whp with my stock bottom end other than block guard. all ive seen is numbers in the high 240's.
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