Rep Power: 350

Ok, I'm not asking this because I don't have a good idea, but to better inform those people who don't have a good idea.

First off, when I say stock, I mean an unchanged longblock. Stock rotating assembly, stock head. So far, I haven't seen anyone break the 250 whp barrier. I am just barely under that. And that is with a completely stock head and bottom end with just headstuds.

Now, my car isn't running right now due to an issue I had. When I put my engine in, I went to tap my oil pan but did not have the right sized tap for the fitting I had, so I had to go a size bigger. Being as the fitting was brass, I couldn't weld it in, so I used a nut on the inside of the oil pan. Over time, with crankcase and oil pressure, it eventually backed the nut off and blew through the bottom of my pan. Stupid mistakes cost you when you cut corners.

The car ran perfect to that point and I didn't damage anything from the amount of power I was making, so I want to clear that up first and foremost. I am in the process of getting it back together but I am taking my time and I refuse to rush and cut corners, I want to see this motor break from actual horsepower, not stupid, avoidable things.

That said, I'm going to put everything back together, do some exhaust upgrades and turn up the boost some. I'm shooting for right at 300whp. With where my car was before the dezod manifold, I pulled a 13.8. My best trap speed was 106. My 60' times were terrible, mainly due to track conditions, the fact that it was very cold and I had way too much pressure in my drag radials. With where it was, better track conditions and lower tire pressure with a warmer night, I would have hit a low 13 guaranteed.

Anyways, I see alot of people who seem to think that making this much power on a stock motor isn't possible and I plan to prove them wrong when I post up a dyno sheet and timeslip in a few weeks.

In the meantime, I'd like to know who thinks what and GOOD REASONS WHY. If you can't be civil about it, don't post, please.

And for just a point of reference, read this thread before you post:
http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=2860

 
Rep Power: 336

you need to clarify "stock"
stock block? meaning you can change everything else?
well, if you turbo the car on a stock cam then it can bust.
too much boost will literally blow up something. crack a piston, throw a rod, bend a valve- well this one is like with over revving.
too much PSI will also = blown head gasket.
if i missed anything, someone else help me out.

 
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wow...that is sweet. Makes me wanna do something with my useless so-called engine. haha.

Keep us posted....Im anxious to see what can happen with a stock motor!

 
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I agree w/ MajinB....I don't really think its the HP that kills the engines
its the compression and PSI that puts alot of stress on engine components and causes more heat.

too much heat will cause tons of problems.

I could be just absolutely wrong though and its like 8 am on sunday morning so i may just be babbling.....

 
Rep Power: 387

actually I beleive that its the torque that kills the D series engine. I made great progress with the TSI kit on my built automatic its all in how things are set up. Heat is always a engines issue no matter if its N/A or boosted. I'm sure it can only handle so much boost but how much is that really... i'm sure andy will find out but then again with the AEM EMS he has full control to push the engines limits and break it

 
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well alot of us do believe big numbers are possible, but there are questions about why this matters. If you do get 300whp its nice, but what if the motor only lasts a week before breaking. Thats useless to anyone. I can take a stock scion xa and throw a 150 shot of nitrous, take it to a dyno and say look everyone the car made 200whp with just the nitrous! later that day the car was towed to a shop for a new motor.

 
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i dunno but those are some pretty nice numbers for a D series.

 
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I've heard of people making around 300whp on stock d16s. Everyone thinks are motors are "crappy D17s" but side by side the only major differences are in the head and vtec. The stroke is a lil longer which may hurt strength minimally. I dont think its impossible by any means to hit 300. You might be sitting on a time bomb at 300 hehe, but that really doesnt matter much considering you are willing to see what happens. I think if anything you are gunna bend/throw a rod b4 you have any other problems. My money is on the rods failing first. We oughta thank you for finding the breaking point of our engines.

 
Rep Power: 327

im sure even higher number is capable. Its not always the big number that kills the motor. It can be the sudden big number that kills it. Like a huge N2O shot and not staged will do more harm than a gradual HP increase from boost or N/A . Even at 200whp your lowering the longevity of the motor. And the longevity will get reduced as the HP increases. There are way to many varriables to ever figure out a magical max WHP number that a "stock internal D17" can with stand

 
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Stock means stock. Unchanged block, unchanged head. It's not the boost that damages motors. If you took a piston and put it under 100 psi of air pressure alone, do you honestly think that would damage it? Of course not, that's ridiculous. It's the pressure from the combustion, ie: horsepower/torque. The force itself is what moves things, not the air. With a stock headgasket, it held up fine to 250 whp, it didn't blow anything and ran like a champ. Exactly why would a stock cam cause a motor to "bust?" I have never, not once, heard of someone destroying an engine because they are running stock camshafts. What alot of people don't understand is that heat is what damages an engine. If you keep a conservative tune, with enough timing pulled and monitor your egt's, you keep the heat down, which allows the internals to hold up to the pressure without the added stress of the heat.

And Phil, I know you know this, but that is exactly why your manifold was melting things.

 
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i'm assuming you will be playing with cam/ignition timing when tuning?

 
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Yeah I was gonna say with a stock ECU, its impossible. But since you have AEM and can change the timing and make other adjustments, I'll assume its plausible.

 
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stock cam timing is where it needs to be, no need to adjust it. As far as bending valves HP doesnt bend valves.The only real thing to worry about is the lower end. The only reason anything up top will fail is from a poor tune, maybe maybe maybe you would melt a valve but its more likely to pop a HG or crack a ring land. So many people on here have destroyed motors from poor tuning. Finally, someone will have the correct tune to see the REAL mechanical limits of these engines

 
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< 200 maybe?

 
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I just skimmed through, trying to watch wedding crashers for the first time LOL. But do you over torque the stock head studs or do you have arp or other aftermarket?
I was under the impression that after 10-12 psi the head will lift. Does it lift because of the pressure or does have to do with heat?
I remember that barney was running pretty high numbers, but that was a long time ago. What happened with that?
As you said it is all about tunning, and with the aem ems you have some serious potential.
I think a lot of people including myself will learn from this thread.

 
Rep Power: 336

its pressure. 100 PSI of air on a piston will not bust it. BUT 100 PSI + the compression of the air when the piston goes up right before it fires WILL crack it. duh. i mean i know supras can handle like 2 bars or boost but thats divided by 6 cylinders. get realistic.

 
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i agree with him. you can make 300whp once, but that means nothing if it doesnt last. who really cares if you can hit 300whp if it just breaks a week or a month later, like gearbox said.

 
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He did not mean that^
He was just making the point of it takes heat and pressure.
Why did you mention the part about the supra?

 
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or even a year later or two years? who wants to replace an engine even one time here. nobody. but its cool that you are trying and can let us know for sure. its a good experiment. i especially wanna know what gives out first.

 
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I sure dont wanna replace an engine but when you play hard you have to sometimes work hard. I can change out engines in less than a day now,complete, and I have the money and means to do so as often as nessecary, which luckily hasnt been very often seeing that I have an AEM ecu. Im gunna be yanking this one in about a month to check bearings and install my secret lower end combo hehe. Every mod you do takes life off an engine, I guess its just a matter of how much you can justify, hehe. There are some of us out there that dont care, as long as we are trying to be somewhat innovative.

 
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I'd have to disagree on the EVERY mod part takes life off an engine.

Haha

 
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just as an example

 
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No offence, but I realy dont see your point, many members have maid over 200whp on their 7th gens..

He ment more than just bolt on mod...
But all in all, I see Andy's point. He wans to see his engine blow, but he wants to test its true engineering limits. E.g. taking limits to the top via quality mods, quality testing and quality tune. That means - to modify as much as possible with idea to keep it running as long as possible. Sure end of engine life may come unexpectetly, but when quality involved that means it is (was) the best that could've been done by one.
As I see replies in this post and I think, some members see Andy's idea as: max. power vs. fast blow up, but term as "longest possible engine life" needs to be added to this equasion, so I see it:
max power+longest engine life vs. blown at its mechanical peak - so the end result will be equal as to what tread topic says - "How much horsepower will a stock d17 make?"

+ rep to Andy for his well worth goal

 
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Yeah he meant performance mods.

^
An example of what, a car than can handle a lot of boost?
I just do not see your reasoning behind your post, it sounded like pretentious BS to me.

 
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yes an example of a stock block that can handle boost. im not sorry to make you feel that way. o well, its just an opinion

 
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Your not sorry that you made me think your post was pretentious

 
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also vibration will beat up engines, but in the max-it-out-scenario heat is definitely the issue.

 
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good luck!!!!! cant wait to see the outcome...take vids of everything....dyno runs, and at the track....

 
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That's not true, either. It isn't the air pressure. It has nothing to do with air pressure. It has everything to do with the result of a denser mixture of air and fuel, which creates more horsepower, which creates more pressure. It has nothing to do with air pressure whatsoever. Look at 15 psi on a t28, that's nothing compared to 15 psi on my turbo. I think you should probably do a little bit of research about internal combustion engines before you speak "matter of factly." It's pretty clear that by your post, you don't understand what takes place in the combustion chamber. Here's a good link, www.howstuffworks.com. They have a good explanation of internal combustion engines and how they work.