Shift-E

How much power do you think we could push out of the civic on an N/A build to the D17 platform? I've always been curious because I saw some civics on this site pull off over 430+ HP, but they had Turbo's.

I know nothing about the internals of an engine, so how much stuff is there in there that we could swap out for better performance? And what kind of benefits would we see?

Of course K-Pro would be needed for tuning, that's kind of the only option from what I believe. I've also read somewhere about AEM EMS (or something to that affect) I haven't researched anything about it though.

So lets get some discussion

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

All-motor builds are a headache, but SO worth the effort. I can't tell you how much I've learned through my motor build (which I started 3 months ago...still not even close to being done lol) From what I've learned, these are some of the things you gotta consider if you want to go all-motor. Realistically--it's all about how deep your pockets are. I've seen D16's crack 190hp but that was with some heavy mods. Not sure how different the D17 is. Simple is often better. You can mix and match some OEM parts and actually get some really good results.

High Compression. The higher compression the more power (assuming you can suck in enough air and your cams stay open long enough to take the air).

Aggressive Cams. You need cams with higher lift so they stay open longer. The bigger the lobe of the cam, the longer they stay open, thus the more air they can suck.

Valvetrain. Since more aggressive cams allow you to extend the redline (because they continue to make power far past the stock redline), you need springs that will be able to take the stress of ~9k RPM shifts.

The other thing to consider is getting the head port and polished. This increases the flow of the head thus increasing potential power. The power for any all-motor build is in the head.

Block:

Pistons--whether they're forged or cast, they gotta be high compression. The higher compression you go, the higher octane fuel you need. You can run 13:5 compression on pump gas, but you'd be making the same amount of power as someone who's running 12:1 compression on pump gas. Also make sure to check valve clearance. If you're running some seriously domed out pistons, they're more than likely gonna make mince meat of your valves.

Rods--for even mild NA builds you're ok using oem rods as long as their shotpeened. You're better off using the same rods as the block (B18C1 block..use GSR rods, i.e.)

Bearings--Honda bearings FTW

Bore--Boring out the cylinder increases the potential power and compression. Most people only bore out .25, other's bore out 3-4mm. It's all about the budget. If you bore, you're more than likely are going to need sleeves which will easily run you $1000 at a machine shop.

You don't need K-Pro for all-motor. The S300 chip is more than sufficient at all of your all-motor needs, since you're really only messing with ignition and fuel timing.

Also, if you got REALLY deep pockets you could get a lightweight crank from Eagle. They shave ~7 lbs off the rotating assembly which is a fair amount. With a lightweight flywheel and pulley on top of that you're making the motor much more efficient as it has to work less to produce the same amount of power. The drawback? They run for almost $800. Yeaah....

Finally, your built motor is only as good as the bolt-ons. I'd recommend an SMSP header and a Performer X Mani/65mmTB + CAI. Even better would be some ITB's but I don't believe the D series platform is supported.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

not sure if it was mentioned, but for higher compression you need ARP headstuds otherwise you will just keep blowing the headgasket. be careful milling the head too much or you will have problems. its better to use domed pistons.

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

OH yeah and ARP rod bolts too especially if you're extending the redline.

Shift-E

That was extremely informative! Unfortunately at this time, I don't have money to build an engine lol. This thread was made to help me get an idea of what I'm looking at if, in the future, a build was feasible. It also makes a really informative thread for anyone wanting to know more about N/A since I didn't see any other threads on it here. (I haven't really ventured onto other Honda Forums yet lol)

Do you know what kind of numbers a D17 might be able to pull off going N/A? Would it pass the 200 mark you think? And I'm sure the benefits of going N/A in regards to reliability of the engine increase a lot!

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

im sure a D-series could crank out 200whp N/A but would be high budget. i've seen guys squeeze more HP out of their crazy N/A setups by running alcohol injection. the problem with D motors is there arent as many supporting mods in comparison to B, H and K series motors.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

the problem is unless you love civics and this is a hobby, the money would be better spent on a different car with more hp to start. for the amount you would spend building the engine, you could go buy an rsx and supercharge it with money left over and be way faster than the civic.

Shift-E

You've got a point Gearbox, but I do love civics lol. Though the RSX is a nice car, I could never see myself owning one. I feel like the sense of accomplishment from making a D series engine fast would outweigh the feeling I would get from working on a K. But like you said, it's for a hobbiest who doesn't mind spending the money. Who knows, maybe I will or maybe I won't be in the position to ever go that far with my civic. But if I had the chance to choose between the two, I have a strong feeling I'd go for the civic.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

Alright let me clear some **** up you need k-pro you can not use an s300 on a d17

can you run 13.5 comp piston on pump yes should you never. even 12.5 is stupid high for pump gas and you have to realize the higher you go up with the compression the safer you have to be with ignition. the safer you are the ore power you will lose NA is all about trade offs what are you willing to give up to get X

most shops do not overbore .25 the overbore to .50 because there is just too little to work with with .25 considering you already have cylinder wear and if you go to .25 you really are only taking it down on average .15 and you have to deal with egging of the cylinders on a honda

a d16 hitting 190 is fully built top and bottom blueprinted and all damn near no one on this site can afford a build like that and they are running race gas. also the d16 head has an differrent airflow pattern and flows much better so it is easier to make more power with a d16

you will never be able to do anything at a 9k redline on a d17 the stock intake mani stops flowing around 7800 rpm and even if you take care of that the aftermarket cams that are available stop making power at a max of 8100 rpm. the other thing is if you take it all the way up there (8k) and hold it for too long like say in 3rd gear you will build to much crankcase pressure push all the oil away from the bearings and starve the bottom end of oil and will be left with a very noise and large paper weight.

eagle does not make a crank for the d17 there is almost no support for the d17 and do not run a lightened crank pulley hondas are used as a harmonic dampener if the pulley is off just slightly the motor will tear itself apart in minutes if not seconds and it's pretty brutal when it does that. if you want a taste stick a deep well socket on the end of the crank pulley bolt and start it up and see how yeah it runs it's not pretty at all.

Numbers

stock d17 dyno's about 90 to 95 hp at the wheels. I/H/E 100-105hp

Crower stage 1 cam (NO TUNING REQUIRED TO RUN THIS CAM!) 125 @the wheels possibly a little more with k-pro

Crower Stage 2 NA cam (K-PRO REQUIRED!) 149-150 hp @ the wheels with supporting mods ie. I/H/E

crower stage 3 NA cam junk makes a massive amount of tq on the bottom end like 110 @ 2200 but has no top end not enough static compression to carry it might open up with high comp pistons. does come stupid scary alive below 15 degrees out side but good luck getting your car started at that temp with k-pro cold start FML. But high comp pistons would probably benefit more from crower stage 2 NA cam.

if you are looking for more than 150 hp @ the wheels you might as well go turbo after the 150 it gets exponentially expensive. you will not hit 200 hp on the d17 NA It might be possible but the only person that really could pull off is turbo'd and looking at about 400-450hp once I get tuned turbo is way too much fun. Not trying to **** anyone off but you can't look at 160 to 170+ with out dropping over $3000 into the head and that does not include cam, springs, and retainers

if I had to do it all over again NA I would just drop the crower stage 1 cam in it an call it a day you don't need to do anything else and it is a great deal for the price.

also there are a number of detailed NA research threads up here on CF they might be in the arcive but there is a lot of good info.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

oh forgot to add no need to shot peen the rods

Shift-E

I think I would be satisfied dropping $3-5K into a build if it will bring me above 150 whp. The price of a used 7th gen lol. After that maybe I'd look into some FI, But to be honest, 150 is a substantial difference from 90/95.

I think what I would be looking for when building is not the horsepower to compare to other cars (like the RSX which is 200 bhp) but rather the difference between the original number and whatever you get it to. To me that is what it's all about.


Did you build the D17 before? What was your experience?

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

At that point you may as well turbo or K swap... K swap expect to spend ~ 7000 after everything is said and done.

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

You essentially re-stated what I said in an extra 1 really long run-on sentence.

Yeah you need a K-pro.. im still stuck in B mode, my bad.

The D17 mani stops flowing? Might want to be a little bit more scientific than that. You can swap out the stock mani with a Performer X and achieve significant gains.

Brain Crower Stage 2 Cams stop making power at around 8400RPM. Check their website for dyno graphs. 9k was a bit of an exaggeration.

You can solve the oil starvation issue very simply with either an aftermarket oil pan. Yes Eagle does not make a lightweight crank for the D17, but you can still get your stock crank knife edged. Overkill? Yeah probably.

The shop that I sent my block to honed out the cylinder walls by .25 and that's all that was needed. It's usually more common to bore out .5, but in my case there was no reason to, and because I didn't want to pass the 11:5 C/R mark.

http://www.d-series.org/forums/engin...-d16y8-z6.html

Using 90% OEM parts you can achieve ~160hp (reliably) in a D-series motor for $3000, and that's including the cost of the motor.

Milkey

S300 doesn't work on the D17, go look for yourself on hondata's website.

Personally I've got I/H/E and I'm waiting for a used stage 1 cam to pop up for sale and thats going to be the end of my NA build, but if you got some cash stage 2 w/ kpro is definitely a nice upgrade (I'd do it myself if it wasn't so much extra).

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

Oh, shiet. I'm stuck in B mode....my bad.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

Your still stuck in B mode and D16 mode.

The d17 is completely different from the D16. there is no performer x intake mani. brian crower does not make cams for the d17 his fathers company crower makes cams for the d17 what it says they can do on the site and what it actually does are 2 different stories. I have ran every single cam for the d17 the crower stage 1,stage 2 NA, stage 2 boost, and Stage 3 cam and played with the gerry special. I know what works I know what doesn't and I know exactly were they stop flowing on a stock head and a flowbenched P&P head.

the intake mani it stops flowing by that I mean everything stops your are going up the rpm band and the power is going up and then all of a sudden the damn thing free wheels. basicly your power band jumps off a cliff and go straight to 0. if you have a better intake you can get a couple hundred more rpm out of it before it takes the dive. what it feels like on the road is that you ran it up to high and the timing belt let go. but with no damage.

the link you provided is for a d16 completely different from a d17 they have a much better flowing head. also the only things that carry over from the d16 to the d17 are the rod bolts head studs and clutch and flywheel nothing else fits intake mani does not fit header does not fit other heads do not fit

no one makes an oil pan for the d17 also and switch out the pan wont help it is not a lack of oil or oil getting to the pick up issue its a pressure issue that takes place specifically at the bearings the only way around this is to run a properly setup evap system not your stock one from the factory.


Please do not confuse the d17 for a d16 the d17 is so much harder to make power on.





to the OP

yes I built the d17 I went further than anyone else NA blew up 3 motors in the process I drive really really hard. we figured the car to be about 170 when i finished and that was with out pistons. I also helped build andyman97 489hp D17 30 lbs of boost c16 race gas. and on my car last turbo it was making about 300 hp I have anew turbo and I'm looking for 400-450 hp out of it wich would be a nice start to compliment the RHD. don't ask for graphs I don't have any anymore there might be some still posted some where on here or 7thg. I don't know I gave up caring on the NA the last definitive number I remember was 149 then I changed up a lot of stuff and the car became significantly quicker I know I did not have 200 but since it was lighter it would walk the 8thgen si and also cause I tried to keep the tq up as high as possible which actually was not too hard.

the only thing that I didn't get to do that I wanted to was throw in the GX pistons and see how that 12.5 to 1 comp would be a set recently came up for say and I seriously thought about it but then I would need to find another block and pull my fully built one out and this and that and you probably get the idea to much work not enough reward and it would be backtracking cause I am already making more power boosted

now for 3-5k you could very easily kswap or turbo and make more power and frankly I am kicking my self for not going turbo sooner

MindBomber

^^^^
The very last sentence of Paul's post is what everyone reading this thread needs to pay attention too, he tried NA before eventually moving onto F/I. That's a common sentiment.

Lets look at the common reasons for a N/A build over a turbo, shall we:
Can be built more gradually.
Less expensive.
More reliable.

If your looking for under 150whp on a d17, those reasons are all still valid, because it can be done for under $2000 and with relatively few modifications. If you want much more than that those reasons go out the ****ing window and all your left with is an engine making less power for comparable turbo build.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

^i found the NA to be less reliable than my turbo setup cause I was so dedicated to squeezing every last ounce of the car that I would just push it to hard I toasted 3 motors NA. with turbo I have not eaten a motor yet only one turbo and that was cause I vacuum fitting backed off wastegate locked shut and I think it went over 36+ pounds of boost manged to lift the head even with arp's and it snapped the shaft of the turbo clean like it had been stuck on a lathe we think defective shaft of course I have done a lot of turbo d17's

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

Badass thread. I like the fact that K series got mention by someone other than me. But again all this is only relative if you really really want a project car and don't mind spending more on the car than it's worth. I like my civic but not that much... bomer I did a ton of research on K swaps and to do it for 5k is not doable unless yo go with the A3 which is almost a senseless swap. You will spend 6000+ even if you budget the parts.. I know quite a bit about the K swap, not turbo or n/a builds though. Still, a K swap is more viable than a "Fast" N/A from what I gather in this thread.

Shift-E

My thoughts exactly

Thanks to everyone for the awesome info btw!

Bomerman: Less reliable? That's the first time I heard that. But then again, you are pushing the car pretty hard from what it sounds like. To be honest, I'm a little afraid of turbo because of what I heard about reliability. And even if I wanted a reliable turbo, wouldn't I have to build the engine with all these parts anyways?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i made this a sticky because of all the info

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

heh!
Now i know why you have been absent for a while, Zeferint! Engine and suspension mods, then?
sadly you talking about the 6th gen in the 7th gen section, but your info still pretty good!

Why don't you re-post that info in the 6th gen section too? (hint, hint!! )

Heya, Paul, still lurking around here? Good info as always!

MindBomber

Pushing a car for big power leads results in a loss of reliability, while a conservative build done right can maintain complete daily driver dependability. It's that simple.

Building an engine is a pretty broad statement, but the simplest answer is that you can take a build wherever suits your goals and budget best. Dropping in a Stage 2 cams doesn't don't mean you need to up the compression and build the bottom end, for example.

Shift-E

Nice I was going to suggest that, but didn't know if it had enough to be a sticky :P

That's true, i didn't think of it that way

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

haha yup I've been quite busy. I guess ill just shut up now since I realize I have no idea wtf im talking about, lol. I honestly didn't realize how different the D16 is from the D17. I'm gonna go back to my 6th gen forum where I belong now

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

Although I will say this.. The toughest part of N/A builds is knowing when to stop. It's easy to just adjust power with a boost controller but if you're just looking for more even a little more power, you add cams. Well if you add cams then you should add this, ooh and this will add more power.. oh and while I have the block apart I might as well do this.. annnd $4000 later....

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

hint! Hint! means it's worthy info, but for the 6th gen, buddy!
so repost there, it's good nonetheless! Paul is talking about the D17. You talking about D16 and B

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

yeah zef you gave good info but for the d16

and you run into the same problem with turbo knowing when to stop or knowing when to quit turning up the boost and usually you figure it out after it blows up. as far as reliability my car has always been pretty reliable but you have to understand blowing up 3 engines is not very reliable to me but at the same time my car at 80,000 miles is probably equivalent to most at 280,00 miles my engines went through so much abuse it was ridiculous.

most people can't even come close to driving that hard.

and blue em2 start searching harder there are a number of people who have done k swaps for less you just have to take your time and look for deals. foos and I did sk8tjosh's for less than 5k and it wasn't an a3 it was the type s motor out of the rsx if you want to do the a3 you can as low as 3800 sometimes lower its all about patience and a lot of searching but it very possible to do a kswap for under 5 now a days. now if I could only pull a diesle swap for under 5k on my landrover I would be in business

Shift-E

Another thing to keep in mind (For Blue and myself) is that we're Canadian, and parts are more expensive here then in America. That plays a big part in it.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

5K calculated costs or with all the lil odds and ends included? Air condition working? thats pretty good I gotta say. Impossible here in Canada as Shift-E mentioned. You tack on 30% or maybe a little more for the same parts here you guys are buying. Even at a junkyard.