Rep Power: 252

See this is what I hate about alot of the tuning shops. Letting things like this happen..The tuner should of never and I mean never had your car in the upper RPM range on the dyno when he saw it leaning out. On the dynojet the air/fuel mixture has color code and once you see it hit yellow in upper rpm you back off and end the run and make adjustments.

 
Rep Power: 327

IMO pull the turbo and replace the injectors with stock until it can be tuned properly. Most likely that dyno graph AFR is a little off assuming it uses a tailpipe sniffer. But either way if your not running a wideband on a modified car its gambling with VERY poor odds everytime you drive it. It kills me everytime someone post about problems like this. Because it scares more people off from doing a turbo. But i think what a lot of people dont realise is how much $$$$$ it takes to do a system that is reliable. From being able to scan your car for CEL's, Wideband in the car, fuel system, to having the cash to fix it when it breaks. Its like saving up to go buy a ferrari . But not the HUGE bank role it takes to maintain it!

 
Rep Power: 252

I hope I was some help to you on the phone

 
Rep Power: 279

Definitely. My problem is there's absolutely no way to be able to afford even the wideband. I thought I was out of the woods when I tuned it. Anyway... I'm just turning it to the WG spring and praying for the best. There's just no way to pull this off... I'm too broke. Maybe I'll call the shop that screwed me and tell them to retune me with a no more than 2 timing degrees and Air/Fuel between 10-11.5. I dunno - I'm so screwed it's not even funny.

 
Rep Power: 281

You're not screwed yet man be positive. You know what the problem is you're just running lean up top. So ya that being said turn down the boost level and save your *** off for a wideband and tuning session. You'd be screwed if you blew your headgasket again but hopefully that doens't happen. Good thing you posted that dyno graph and ppl caught it.

 
Rep Power: 279

I talked to the shop that did my tune... He stands by the 13 A/F... he says that they use a tailpipe sniffer and it is approximately 1 off... so 12 would be 13... and he said this without me telling him how far I was off. He also stands by the timing adjustments, but I don't understand the explanation really.

 
Rep Power: 424

They can stand by whatever they want to tell you... you got a couple of us here in disbelief that they let that out of the shop, for very good reason. They're blowing smoke up your ***, its a shabby tune. If it was running 13:1 across the table, we'd all say damn thats too lean, but at least it would be even. But the fact that it starts out ok, then clearly runs out of gas... just screams problem. If you back it off to 6psi, you might have enough injector to go the distance, but if it was my car, I wouldnt stand on the gas unless you can confirm that you're running safely below 12:1 all the way to the redline.
I also dont think the wideband is a whole point off.... If that was the case, you're running 10s down low, which makes a bad tune worse.
For reference, when my car was tuned, the UEGO wideband in the downpipe, and the tailpipe sniffer the dyno was logging (with a crapalytic converter between them) read within 0.1 AFR of each other at all times.

 
Rep Power: 279

Well... I have since installed a cat in order to pass inspection. Also, I turned down to 6psi and I'm driving like Grandma... but NO I don't trust that to last forever. I ordered spark plugs from Dezod to help with my misfire, and I have no idea how/when/if I can afford a re-tune AND a pump/577s/wideband.

My understanding is that I can't wire the wideband into the E-Manage blue... so it really would be no more than a monitoring tool. I am most likely going to have a 3rd bung installed regardless... so if I get a re-tune, the shop can hook up their wideband that way.

Turbotrix wants $450 to tune a Honda with an E-Manage. That plus $105 for the pump, approximately $100 for the injectors is $650 or so. For the extra $200 - I'd rather do it the right way (minus the wideband purchase right away) considering I'm sitting on a fully built bottom end.

Even if I manage to get all this done - I'll only run 10psi or so because I don't want my stock cooling system to start to give me ****. At this point I don't even care about power... I need a daily driver that won't blow up.

P.S. - Anybody know a REPUTABLE shop in the greater NJ area (Philly, central Jersey) besides Turbotrix? The $450 is alot... I mean I guess I'm paying for quality, but still.

 
Rep Power: 281

Call 1320 Motoring they are in Linden and all guys I've talked to rave them. They mainly tune Kpro and EMS but they have a guy that can tune emanage you just have to call him and set up the appt. for him to use their dyno.

 
Rep Power: 424

well.... Jeff Evans, but he's not gonna tune an emangle.

 
Rep Power: 350

Amen. I love to hear people say that piggybacks CAN be good. REAL tuners won't even waste their time with them.

 
Rep Power: 327

The judge of a good technician/tuner is what he can do with the tools he has. Fancy tools make good techs/tuners LAZY! Whats always easiest isnt always whats best. Its like comparing a dealship tech with a fancy scanner that holds his had to the tech at an idependant shop that can do the same diagnostics with a book/alldata and a DVO meter! Who do think is the better tech? Do they both get the job done ? YES. Does one get it done faster than the other ? YES. Who would you rather work on your car? I personally would pick the idenpendent...... Rant off!

 
Rep Power: 350

It isn't a matter of "fancy tools". Its a matter of using the "right tool." Let me ask you this. Would you try and use a crescent wrench to remove a crank pulley bolt? Hell no! You MIGHT be able to get it to work (although I seirously doubt it), but odds are you're going to damage the bolt or round it, then you'll never get it out and you're totally screwed. Why not use the best, most efficient tool. You know that a 1/2" drive breaker bar with a 19mm socket and a pulley holder tool will do the job correctly and SAFELY.

Running a piggyback is the equivalent to using a crescent wrench. Its an inferior tool to do a job halfway. Any way you slice it, you're taking a signal and altering it. You aren't having a fuel injector pulse or a spark plug create spark exactly as you set it under your programmed conditions.

 
Rep Power: 279

Well - from my point of view it HAS to be good enough because I have no other option. I'm so screwed financially that I have half a mind to just have them tune it to 7psi or something and just sit on $6,000 worth of engine mods making barely any significant power... but not blow up ever.

My other option is get the fuel parts I need and tune it to like 10 or 12psi and hope the E-Manage doesn't suck as bad as you say.

 
Rep Power: 297

Without a wideband and being able to make your own adjustments, your screwed with an emanage. Reason being, you'll constantly have to tweak it. It takes more than a few dyno pulls to get it right. The guys that tuned the car probably only tuned it to make you happy, not telling you the whole truth about your setup. Instead of breaking the news to you, they tell you anything they can to get you out the door and pray you dont have problems or at least dont come back there with them. I've seen it tons of times. Best thing to do is hang around anyone with good EFI tuning experience despite what they drive and soak up info. You are finding out first hand what most of us delt with when we started with this stuff. My emangle stayed in my car for about 1k miles and I sold it and bought an EMS.

 
Rep Power: 279

Well it's alot more probable that I'd get the wideband and tweak it myself for the less-than-$300 pricetag because I simply wouldn't be able to afford a standalone AND another tuning.

Apparently I built a monster I can no longer afford. I started this whole mess wanting a bad-*** daily driver and now I have a giant money pit that costs more than my entire paycheck to afford.

 
Rep Power: 0

Ouch. I plan on going turbo too, but this is exactly why I will buy a spair D17A2 and build it up. It will take time to get all the good top quality parts, but I say "do it once, do it right." That way even if I did have a problem like you're having, I could yank out the turbo engine and put the stock N/A engine back in. It will be a while before I get my turbo though, as I'm getting close to having all the parts I need for the 5 speed swap. From what I've read on here so far, would everyone say that the Kpro is the way to go?

 
Rep Power: 252

Inferior tools....mmmm interesting quote from what i can remember some of the people standalone units blew thier **** up...Out of all the years of tuning and going to classes for it and hrs on the dyno a piggy back will do a fine job for any basic setup. As far as standalones go they work good if the tuner knows what he is doing. I still do not like tuning the AEM do to I am not certified in the software so i am not going to put myself in that situation.

I mean **** i got a DSM running 867whp using DSM link which is a eprom chip.so go figure

 
Rep Power: 0

I am AEM Factory Trained and Certified.

 
Rep Power: 252

I think I need to get off these forums..ppl talking about real tuners do not tune piggy back systems and such. My question is what is a real tuner and a fake tuner......Would a real tuner be someone who works at a shop and tunes the cars and makes a living, and a fake tuner someone who has a laptop and sit in the drive way saying hell ye I am a tuner...

 
Rep Power: 279

I think the difference is someone who takes whatever superior/inferior tool the customer brings in and makes it work for a price agreed upon with the customer.

 
Rep Power: 0

My opinion is that a real tuner is someone who takes the time to do the job right and doesn't let you leave his shop (or driveway) with a half-assed running tune just to get out the door.

 
Rep Power: 252

Your guess is as good as mine, i am waiting for answer.. Cause I am very curious to see what a real tuner is and the qualifications to be a real tuner so that I can take real tuner classes coming up

 
Rep Power: 281

Chris I don't know if someone is criticizing you or not but don't take it personal. I've met you personally and see the great work you do. I know you can tune cars but I think having the classes under your belt exponentially increases your knowledge and credibility. Let the ppl hate man the ppl that know you know the work you can do. That is all.

 
Rep Power: 252

Nah no one directed any comment to me personally but i am just trying to see what ppl mean by saying real tuners only tune standalones....**** I am by far no where near perfect or great...I just do what i do

 
Rep Power: 297

Well I've seen lots of different way to look at things. I had an emanage before I knew how to make it work on a obd2 computer. I sold it. I didnt fully understand the complexities of these factory computers until after the fact. I DID know however, my power goals ultimately exceeded the capabitities of the unit. I started on my new quest. I did a ton of reading, comprehending, talking to many reputable people in the area, etc. got some hands-on experience, and I decided on the AEM EMS. I knew enough to get the car running ok and had it tuned elsewhere. Since then I have really learned a ton about tuning and I dont regret buying the EMS in any way. I have never had any problems with the box. This is just to post up my experience, not to judge anyone or there cars.

I honestly think to run the emanage like that, you really need to monitor with a wideband and an obd scanner. It still makes no sense to me that we can have all this information on the forum and these posts still come up. IMO having the tools, like a wideband and/or anything tuning related, is just as important as having the wrenches and sockets you used to bolt the turbo kit into the car. You wouldnt try to bolt everything up if you didnt have the tools, right? I guess we all learn the hard way, sometimes we just dont look hard enough to see the answers are right at our fingertips.

 
Rep Power: 327

I had a HUGE post and lost it cause my isp dropped when i went to post it. BTW i hope none thought my post was directed at them because it wasnt. Standalone and piggy back both have thier places. And both can do the job just one cost more and does a much better job of it. IMO a REAL tuner is someone who can tune a system properly and efficently which IM NOT! Can i get it done ? YES. But it will take me a long time to get there do to lack of expierence.

 
Rep Power: 0

argggg reading this post. Lets hope no one suggest RSX S injectors + emanage anymore, I think its a waste of time/money. Junk Junk Junk, ill go with a poor mans wet kit (used) with a new performance clutch before ill do turbo on a budget. I've been on this forum for years and never post, just read. So many questions about budgets, and what can i fit in this budget, all this planning. dont got at least 5 grand--- you cant turbo or swap, Kpro/AEM is needed either way and thats a good chunk of coin right there.

I love turbos too, but im in college, i cant afford nor have the time to be screwing with **** like this til im done. if your on any type of budget and have the need for speed, buy a wet kit and a clutch kit, fill the bottle when you can afford it. You can always turbo or swap later.

Just my opinion, sorry guys just had to get that off my chest.

 
Rep Power: 279

Even regarding all my problems - it's only from a lack of knowledge before putting the kit on. I purchased my kit used for $2200 and bought the E-Manage harness, sandwich plate, clutch and flywheel additionally. The kit I bought already had injectors.

You could purchase a similar kit, install the kit with basic tools and a few DIY mods (radiator support, etc.) in a week (or weekend) and have it tuned to run 6psi all day long.

At 6psi with only a base tune I pulled 158 HP. With a proper tune, 160-170 is very possible to achieve safely. I am only digging my own hole deeper now because of my rebuild. If I never blew my headgasket I'd never have rebuilt the internals and would be running 6psi on a stock block.

I don't agree with your decision against going turbo... but I think most people's misconception is how much power/boost is possible with a basic kit. There's a reason the Dezod kit comes with a 6psi wastegate spring!

If I knew then what I know now, I'd have a basic kit tuned right, running off the wastegate making 70 more HP than stock all day long with no worries and an extra $3000 in my pocket.

 
Rep Power: 0

ya it would be nice to have a dezod kit, i just dont have the cash, kit - standalone - injectors - clutch, too much for me. not to say it wouldnt be nice to be boosted, but i still owe quite a bit on my em2. myabe that would be something for down the road