andyman97

iTrader: (14)

Ask anyone who knows anything about fuel systems what they think about that setup. I guarantee that anyone who has a clue what they are talking about will tell you it sucks. Adding extra injectors? Why not just use your stock ones? Oh, btw, what SF's kit has is a modded vortech fmu which adds fuel pressure under boost and it uses stock injectors. Just so you know, you could have found that answer in about 20 different places if you had searched. As far as cost of the kit, there are a few different packages with a few different items, so maybe you can find all of those if you just searched.

Oh and as far as maxrev offering a $500 discount...I wonder why that is.....anyone have any ideas? Maybe because their kit and customer service both SUCK?!?!?!?!?!

wenlyone

Using a FMU and stock injectors which means adding fuel pressure and pushing the injectors. Ask anyone who boost, they will tell you that isn't really a great solution.

Adding extra injectors which relieves the strain on the fuel system, simple as that. If you don't replace with larger injectors with some type of injector control, it is just easier for something to go wrong.

I am asking some questions, why don't you just answer instead of acting like you know everything...

I am only gathering info here for my friend. You don't know enough to tell me what I should do about boosting.

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

First off, when you adjust fuel pressure, you aren't affecting the injector duty cycle whatsoever.
WTF are you talking about? I have no idea what you mean here.

Because, noob, these questions have been answered repeatedly. Maybe if you learned how to use the search, you could avoid this.

Obviously you know so much that you have to ask all of these questions, right? It seems to me like you don't understand the first thing about a returnless fuel system or you wouldn't be asking and you'd be agreeing with me.

wenlyone

Honda has their injectors work at about 80% duty cycle from the factory. And most people know that 85% is going beyond what the injectors can handle. So 5% is very little to play around with.

As a standard rule of thumb, the safe max limit for a fuel pressure increase is 20%. Once you exceed 20%, you make the injectors work harder than they were intended for and you have thrown off the ECU fuel map calibrations. The life of the injector is drastically reduced at a 50% increase. Secondly, the fuel map is based on certain assumptions and once you push beyond these, the intended duty cycle for a given engine load input is not correct. Thirdly, you place a lot of stress on your fuel lines and fuel pump, since they now must push against this higher fuel pressure at the rail.

In theory, increasing the fuel pressure shouldn't change the duty cycle. But yet it does. In general, duty cycle is the amount of time a device is active during a specified amount of time expressed as a percentage. Example : an injector is on for 1ms and off for 9ms. The ratio would be 1/1+9 = 1/10 = 10% duty cycle. On time / total time measured = duty cycle. But the thing what people are missing is that when the fuel pressure is raised, the injectors will react differently as that of lower fuel pressure. The raised fuel pressure will caust the injectors to have a delayed reaction. This can be verified with a standalone; raise the fuel pressure and check the duty cycle.

And yes, I don't have a clue about how to control a returnless fuel system, this is the main reason why I am asking these questions.

It would be nice for you to share some of your searching findings with me, so myself, the noob, doesn't have to strain my brain trying to find them.

IDQcivic

iTrader: (6)

I've heard larger injectors cause puddling in the manifold which is BAD... you can end up cracking your intake manifold... trust us.. this SF power kit is producting mad HP... just read all the threads before you start posting....

wenlyone

I am reading. Searching everywhere as Andy suggested. So far I see 3 kits. SF, Maxrev, and Turbo Discount. Still can't tell which one is the best choice. SF seems to have least problems.

If that is what you heard about larger injectors you have heard wrong. Low boost applications, increasing the fuel *edit* pressure *edit* might just cut it for a little while. Without larger injectors plus higher boost, that is just asking for trouble.

THEANTIRICEST

iTrader: (7)

the only way this would be worth talking about is if you bought the same type of tires and clutch.

wenlyone

Don't really care about status here. LoL But I might just post 50 on this thread. Does posting more raise your status? I didn't know that. If they don't know ****, even with 1 million posts, I will still know he/she doesn't know ****. LoL

What does the point value mean anyways?

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

Where you are talking about stress on the fuel system just from forcing more fuel through injectors, yes, I agree if it is a return fuel system. Ours are not. There is no return line on the rail which means it doesn't cycle back through to create pressure. SF's fmu is modified to up the pressure under boost which doesn't affect the injector duty cycle, all it does is push more fuel, making it available when needed. Catalyst has been using this setup for 5k+ miles now and has had no problem. The system works great for returnless.

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

No question about it, SF is the only one who has even tested and proven the kit. It fits well with no modification necessarry. The dyno and 1/4 time alone speak for themselves. 'Nuff said.

wenlyone

On a system with return line, the fuel pressure can be changed by letting more or less fuel back to the tank. It isn't the cycle back that creates the pressure, it is the passage allowance that does. By blocking the return passage more, more pressure will be created, that is how fpr and fmu works. That is why, I don't understand how the pressure can be changed when there isn't a return line. Someone has to help me out on the concept.

All boost fmu's are raising with boost, with high enough pressure, I am sure more strain will be put on the injectors regardless it is returned system or returnless. And increasing the pressure will shorten your fuel pump life. With that, fuel pump failure during boost is just not an option.

f/i can be ran and tuned very well even on a mechanically managed fuel system, but there is just more things that can go wrong. Cat is only running 11psi max, so he still doesn't need to resort to larger injectors as of yet. But from what I read, I am sure he will go beyond that and change out all those bandaids for a standalone + larger injectors.

wenlyone

I do want to see the result of that race. This board sounds fun. I do want to see the specs and slips though. Driver reaction and Car setup is something I would like to put some weight on.

By the way, how much does the SF kit cost. Can you guide me to their link on the kit? Parts, etc.

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

He was actually running 14 lbs at one point and was running very strong.

wenlyone

running it at one point is not a long term thing. From what I can see, his love for boost will drive him in the standalone direction with huge injectors. LoL That is if his crank doesn't fail on him first. LoL

AzNmiKex215

iTrader: (2)

i thought honda cranks are strong.. like 600hp strong..? i dunno just something i read on honda-tech.com

andyman97

iTrader: (14)

I don't think a standalone is a bad idea by any means but it is way overpriced and hondata doesn't even make a system for the d17s (from what I've heard, haven't really looked into it.) But I do know that there will be a point that you won't be able to get enough fuel through the injectors.

wenlyone

yes, honda cranks are strong. We pushed the integra to 700 hp before it failed. And you don't think Cat will go there? I think so. LoL I can see it already.

AzNmiKex215

iTrader: (2)

well i think ppl here are making history. D17 power! muahaha D17 > D16

zinkyroo

iTrader: (2)

Extra injector setups work very well on low boost aplications. Since there is such a bias here that SF's fuel setup is the only one that works I posted on Honda-Tech about the extra injector injector controller that you can buy with the Max-Rev kit and found out many people have had great success with it under 13 psi. They say its easy to tune and would work great with 8-9 psi. There is a guy using it who is running mid 12's with it. So thats all I ahve to say about that. Also Max-Rev is a very popular company over on that board

Catalyst

iTrader: (2)

I made 184whp and 200ft/lbs yesterday, on 7 psi.

Too bad my radiator fans broke on the way home.

Time for some new (custom) pistons and head gasket!
(not broke, just doing it to be safe since the car got really hot)

C2i0v0i1C

iTrader: (2)

if u want some rods for those pistons(what kind), i have a set of crower in my room never used just got them today actually, they are for non vtec

C2i0v0i1C

iTrader: (2)

by the way is there anyone on this site that has actually put aftermarket pistons/rods in their motor yet

SaiyanMatador

speedracer chick, put the gx pistons in her car, but took them out for some reason.

C2i0v0i1C

iTrader: (2)

what are gx pistons and who makes them

01WingsWestCivic

iTrader: (5)

i thought that was that christy girl that had the pistons, not speedracer. and christy took them out because she was experiencing engine knock

wenlyone

I guess she didn't put it in herself. but then the tuner should have retarded the timing if it is a higher compression piston...

wenlyone

Cat, before you start on internals, it might be wise to go to standalone. I don't know if aem or hondata support 17, but I think Efi Pms will. It somewhat a standalone with piggy back abilities. It is the cheapest and easiest to tune. Not only will you have full control over fuel, you will also have full control over your ignition timing.

I am still wondering about the returnless. In Integras, a standalone and 440 alone can be dropped in and tuned. But that is because the fuel pressure is static due to the design of the fuel return system. Now, in your Civic, with returnless, how does it work? Isn't the fuel pressure still somehow controlled by something to have the pressure stay at a static value? Why did Honda do this? What benifits does it have?

Catalyst

iTrader: (2)

the fuel system in our cars stays at a constant 45 psi. on the return line cars, the pressure is somewhat variable. Im not too sure about the reasons honda went back to this setup.

I want to see how far i can go with just this fuel system, so you guys can have real numbers that you can get on a daily driven, mildly upgraded engine, on pump gas. Eventually i will go with a stand alone engine management unit (just because i like them more than the piggyback). But not for a little while.

I may just change the headgasket, but i am pulling the pistons out tomorrow to make sure that they arent broke. The car still runs fine, but i am just being safe. If there are any signs of stress on the ring lands, or too much spatter on top, then i will go with some new ones.

HondaCivicEX02

so does zinkyroo have his turbo yet??? i wanna see this race happen!

detoX

yeah! when is it gonna happen?!

catalyst! any news about your car yet?