Black99Vtec

the only way what your saying would work is if you got the deck of you block shaved teh few mm difference that teh d 17 rods have over the d 16 rods. do you think our cranks are absoultly identical to the d 16 cranks ???? thats what i though

Fern

Seems if anyone should be building an engine like this it should be S2000 since he's the only one that seems to know what he's doing/talking about.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

Alright Black99VTEC.

I have tried throwing you a curve to get you to explain how destroking of an engine is done. Can you destroke an engine by chaning the crank? Yes... however, the mods you have listed on your car make your story unbelieveable. I also threw you off by saying that the stroke is determined by the rod, but it's not. Bore is the diameter of the piston, and stroke is the distance the piston moves when it goes from TDC to BDC (up and down in the chamber.... top dead center to bottom dead center)

You can change this by changing the crank, HOWEVER, in order to keep compression, you'd have to get LONGER rods and/or taller pistons. BUT you have gotten SHORTER rods, and from what I've read, you do NOT have taller pistons. So right now, your compression will be crappy and lower. I mean, do you realize that with what you say you've done, you have to have a shop CALCULATE your compression to make sure that everything is where it should be and the measurements are correct? I sure know you haven't done it yourself, as you've demonstrated the length of your automotive knowledge in this thread.

I will get into the fine details of destroking later..... I have to read up to refresh my memory. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

fraga

iTrader: (3)

Wow, this is getting interesting...

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

Also..for the 50th time or so..Pics of your "custom intake manifold" ??

Grey

iTrader: (61)

Yeah, it's something not many people know about. This is taken from: Honda Civic (2001)

I guess it doesn't matter for you though 'cause you re-sleeved the block. You cut out a round hole and you put in a round sleeve. Easy enough...

Owned? Nah, just some interesting information...

neeedforspeeeeed

I'm having a hard enough time trying to figure out what Black99Vtec is saying. It takes me a good 3 minutes to translate. Maybe the reason that people have no respect for you (Black99Vtec) is that your typing is indecipherable. I will be impressed if your project works out as you say, but right now I am seriously doubting it.

just my $.02

LOWBOY

Black99Vtec: I think you need to go back to 5th grade and take basic spelling over again. It is very difficult trying to read your hyroglyphics. (sp, thats a tough one)

2k2civicRAY

Pics pics and more pics justify all.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

Alright, here's a short lesson in the mathematics and all that is involved in de-stroking an engine.

When you destroke an engine using the method of replacing the crank shaft, you are shortening your stroke. Stroke is the distance a piston travels from top dead center to bottom dead center (TDC and BDC). The bore is the distance from edge to edge, also known as diameter, of the piston head. The crankshaft spins in a circle, as do the rod connecting points on the crank shaft. These connecting points will make a diameter (when spinning) equal to that of the stroke. So, getting a smaller crank, makes a smaller diameter, and makes the pistons move up and down over less ground, thus de-stroking or shortening the stroke of the engine. This, in turn, will change the displacement of the car's engine.

A stock D17 has a 94.4mm stroke, and 75mm bore. The formula for calculating displacement is: N * stroke(mm) * bore(mm) * bore(mm) * .0007854 = displacement in CC's. (N is number of cylinders)

So for a stock D17: 4 * 94.4 * 75 * 75 * .007854 = 1668.1896 or 1668CC's.

When you destroke the D17 to a 1.6 liter engine, you are changing the crank, and making the stroke shorter. The connecting points on a 1.6 liter crank make a diameter circle when spun, of 90mm. So they also move the pistons 90mm from TDC to BDC.

So for a 1.6liter crank: 4 * 90 * 75 * 75 * .0007854 = 1590.435 or 1590CC's.

Now, here's where you come into a problem.....

When you change the crank, you are lowering the height at which the pistons sit in the combustion chamber. (the pistons are lowered approximately 2.2mm, or half the change in diameter from one crank to the other) What this does is lower the compression your car is running quite substantially. There are 3 things you can do to solve this.

A. you can buy longer rods, which will restore the pistons to correct height. (you'd need rods that are 2.2mm longer than stock)

B. You can buy taller pistons from rod connecting point to top edge of the piston. (again, must be 2.2mm taller than stock)

C. You can shorten the deck by 2.2mm, thus reducing the extra volume gained in the combustion chamber.

There is de-stroking of an engine in a nutshell. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

-----------------------------------------------
Now, this is why I think you're full of it, or are heading for a hurting Black99VTEC....

When you got a shorter crank, you had to make up that 2.2mm somewhere, in order to maintain compression. But you didn't. In fact, you got SHORTER rods (you have B16 rods, which are shorter than D17 rods) instead of longer. So now you have to make up for even MORE than just 2.2mm. You didn't shorten your block deck, and you didn't get taller pistons. (even 11:1 pistons would probably get your original ratio only back to about 7:1 compression if you're lucky)

So black99vtec.... how do you expect your car to run if your compression is SO FRICKIN LOW?? Your car would be lucky to be making 127hp right now, with that compression. So if you ACTUALLY DO have a 1.6 liter crank, and those eagle rods, you are in for a big surprise when you actually start your car up, once it's back together.

See.... that's why I once again, don't believe you. And neither should anyone else. I told you, if you pretend you know what you're talking about, I will only prove you wrong.

Now, when you answer this time, have the courtesy of doing so WITHOUT using name calling and flaming, since I have given you that same courtesy.

Fern

haha. well said. [IMG]i/expressions/laugh2.gif[/IMG]

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

By the way, your block guard isn't very tightly sealed.... kinda useless, since even a fraction of an inch is enough distortion to lose compression and cause improper sealing.

Who installed your deck guard? You may want to look into that.

Black99Vtec

well frank bash instaled and did all my block work. he has been doing this since the 50's and knows what he is doing. he has built nhra drag cars and eveything. so i kinda trust him. so i guess for thoes that are skeptics then you will see when the dyno results are up. one month ago everyone knew that i was full of **** and was not building my block up. and last week you all knew that i didnt have it sleeved. and this week you know that my motor will not put out around 400 hp. amagine what you will know in a month. so far i have not been bullshitin. just be patient. it wil come soon[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

Please point to the part of that paragraph that answered my questions of:

HOW ARE YOU FIXING THE LITTLE PROBLEM OF YOUR LOW COMPRESSION RATIO DUE TO YOUR PISTONS BEING A LOWER HEIGHT THAN STOCK? (more than 2.2mm) You have to either shorten your block, get taller pistons, and/or longer rods. But instead you got shorter rods... which like I said, hurt your compression even more. And I'm surprised your friend "frank bash" didn't install longer rods, since that would have been MUCH better for strength and for higher hp. If he doesn't know something as basic as that, then he needs to go back to school. But if he has the credentials you say he does, then you're full of it, and he isn't the one who did your block/bottom end. (please feel free to try to tell me I'm wrong on the rod length, because I'd LOVE to tell you WHY you want longer rods)

And FYI, we never said we "knew" you didn't have this or that done. I said you may have some things done, but you are full of it if you claim that your entire sig is what you actually have done to your car. either that, or someone else is building your car, and you're just pretending to know what they are doing to it.

Black99Vtec

it will work and when it does then i will show and explain better then. and i am doing this motor in my garage. no profesionals.

Unstoppable

Again you dodge the questions S2000man asks you.....lol all you can answer is that it will work. If you're doing all this work in your garage...than you should be able to explain it now..

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

First you say....
Then you say....
So which is it?

And here's my lesson on how BADLY your compression drops without adjusting for the destroking of your engine.

Let me show you how drastically you are changing compression with that mere 2.2mm.....

The compression is figured out by volume of the cylinder before compression over volume of the cylinder after compression. (the cylinder is the combustion chamber) . A stock D17 on an EX has a 464cc combustion chamber. Each stroke displaces 417cc, leaving you with 47cc. Soooo 464cc/47cc = about 9.9:1 --- which is what the compression ratio is for a stock EX D17.

Now let's change that by adding that 2.2mm drop. That means that volume is added to BOTH numbers since the entire piston dropped 2.2mm. Soooo..... what is the displacement of 2.2mm in a car with a 75mm bore? 1 * 75 * 75 * 2.2 * .0007854 = about 10cc's. So now you add that extra 10cc's to each number.... this gives you 474cc/57cc. That equals about 8.3:1 compression.

DAMN!!!! that tiny little 2.2mm that was lost from de-stroking dropped compression almost 2 whole points!!! Now you see why it's so important to make up for that 2.2mm by either getting longer rods, taller pistons, or a shortened deck.

But NOOO, you got shorter rods, which means now that 2.2mm could be 4 or 5 mm! So your compression would be like 7:1 or worse!

so like I said... you're either full of it, or you need to fix this issue cuz you're in for a big surprise if you don't.

Black99Vtec

i have thought about that already and thats why i have a new crank the new crank fixes everyhting . and oviously i cant do block work in my garage cause i dont have the machiens ya know.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

I understand about the block work..... but how does your crank fix everything? It either has a 90mm stroke or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then you didn't de-stroke your car. If you have the crank "fix" that 2.2mm loss, then all you did was just RE-stroke your car back to a 1.7liter. Your crank didn't fix it dude. If someone told you otherwise, then they don't know what's going on.

by the way, there was only ONE D series moter that honda ever made that was DOHC. It was the D16A1, 1.6liter DOHC. It was from the honda integra 1986-1989. That car's crank has a 90mm stroke, which would give you the destroking of your car to a 1.6 liter. But no, it doesn't solve your problem of that pesky 2.2mm. (actually more, since you have shorter rods too)

edit: your eagle rods are 1mm shorter than stock... so you have to fix 3.2mm of space. Which means your current compression is probably about 7.3:1

Fern

looks like someone's gonna be pushin their car to the track. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG] Out of curiousity and personal experience, wouldn't you research and find out as much as humanly possible before getting involved in something like this? I mean, who wouldn't find out whats involved in the process or how to do it before trusting their car to someone, or i guess in this case, themselves. Are you even mechanically inclined enough to attempt a lot of the things being discussed here? You say that no professionals are going to be involved. Well if thats the case, you might want to stop making a scene on the boards and and start asking some questions and getting help. Don't come on the boards and start boasting about your car if you don't even know what you're doing to do it. Take your head out of your a$$ and listen to the people that are trying to give you some valuable input and help here, and then maybe you'll actually get something done worth boasting about.

Black99Vtec

if you think i am doing this wrong and its not gonan work then explain how it is done... do you know how to destroke a motor??? if you use the stock crank shaft and just get shorter rods thats not destroking it cause the piston will not raise its self as high as it did when the longer rods were in there. am i wrong.? please explain... with the new crank i got it will push the pistons up to the top of the cilinders. the new crank compensates for the smaller rods. i have know idea what your trying to say. i have an idea that i think is right. but if you know please tell me so i dont waste time and money.

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I already explained I threw you a curve ball and gave you a chance to show some knowledge. I mislead you on the post about destroking with the rods, but then shortly after told you I did.

Okay, here's the deal, since you want to know what's goin on.

Your new crank is what DE-stroked your engine. The reason being is because the connecting points (where the rods connect to the crank) form an imaginary circle as they spin. The diameter of this imaginary circle is EXACTLY the same as your stroke. Since the rods/pistons at TDC vs BDC are also when the connecting point on the crank is at TDC and BDC. On the stock D17, this imaginary circle is 94.4mm in diameter.... in other words, from top to bottom, thus making your stroke 94.4mm. The center of this imaginary circle also happens to be where the crank connects on either end of the crank case. This gives you radius of the imaginary circle, which is 47.2mm.

Now.... when you got the D16 crank, that changed this imaginary circle, as well as your stroke. The new diameter of the circle is 90mm, which is also what gives you your new stroke of 90mm, thus effectively making your displacement that of a 1.6 liter engine.

Now this is where it gets tricky. The center (or ends where the crank connects) is the same on this new crank, as was the old crank. SOOOOO.... this means that the new circle is smaller, and thus lowers the level of the pistons by half of the change in diameter. The change in diameter was 4.4mm. Half of that is 2.2mm. this gives you the 2.2mm that you must make up, since the pistons now sit 2.2mm lower than they originally did, which now has lowered your compression.


If you want to fix it, this is my suggestion. Send back the eagle rods, and get new rods. What you want to do is find out how long the ORIGINAL STOCK rods are. (i can't remember off the top of my head... I think 137mm??) THEN, go out and try to find rods that are 2.2mm longer than that. That will fix your problem, as well as give you a better rod-stroke ratio, which will help in taking load off the rods under high hp and stress, as well as make the downstroke of the power stroke much smoother.

I'm sorry if that was hard to understand, but i did it as best I can without drawing it out.

cliff notes: find out what your stock rods length was, and get rods that are 2.2mm longer. If that's not possible, try to find pistons that are 2.2mm taller. You may also have to do a combination of the two. However, if your stock rod length is 137mm.... I do know the RSX-S rods are 139mm. But I don't know the rest of the specs as to whether or not they'd work.

Black99Vtec

what if i chop my block?

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

Yes, taking 2.2mm off the block will get you back to where you should be.

Let me toss another option your way as well..... Get a deck plate and INCREASE the height of your deck, which would allow you to get even longer rods. (again, a high rod to stroke ratio is GOOD... do some research and you'll see I'm right) Increase it, say 3.8mm, and you could then get 143mm rods (which I believe are in the prelude??). So.... from 137 to 143 is a 6mm difference. You are already short 2.2mm, so when you add the 3.8, that gives you 6mm. So that's how the math works there.

Otherwise yes, taking 2.2mm off the top of the block would work as well. Let me know if you need to know anything else. Even I am not the all-knowing power in engines, and you MUST know what you're doing when making such changes as the ones you are planning, for simple fact of the measurements have to be precise. You have to have approrpriate compression, as well as piston to valve clearance, etc.

Black99Vtec

i know what your saying but i am trying to keep away from getting longer rods cause that is defeating the purpose of de-stroking it. de-stroking it will make it more stable under high rpms. if i were to make them longer it will make my motor around a 1.9 correct? well i will let ya know whats happends. thanks bro. and merry x mass to everone!

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

no, getting longer rods won't make your engine more like a 1.9 liter. sorry, that was me intentionally misleading you before to see if you knew what you were talking about. ignore that.... anyways.....

If you are worried about higher rpm with slightly longer rods, don't be. Look at the ITR, which has like 139.4mm rods or something like that. In fact, I think even my S2k rods are around 141mm or so... That slight change won't affect you being able to rev higher, but it WILL add a great deal of stability, smoothness, and strength to your rods, as well as relieve sideloading on the cylinder walls. I'll get into a more detailed post about it later.

Merry Christmas to you as well. [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG][IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG]

Black99Vtec

man you r throwing me off. i keep thinking your serious and then that makes me not want to believ you. oh well i no what i am doing i just gotta get my block decked the diff of the rods and pistons from the old set. to keep the compression. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

S2000man01

iTrader: (1)

yes, if you shorten the block 2.2mm that will fix your problem.

I was only trying to give you a suggestion on the longer rods and deck plate.
[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]

Black99Vtec

ok so hears the deal tel lmme what you think. if it will work cause you have confused the heck out of me by trying to tell me wrong things to see if i knew what i was saying.. here is what i got goin on now.
i can use my stock crank shaft. with the shorter rods. and new pistons.. if i get the x number of mm taken off the top of the block. or do i need to use the crank out of a d 1.6? with out the d16 crank the stroke in the crank and the rods will not be equil. will it work if i use a d17 crank with the d16 rods?? tellme what you think.. i am confused now..[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/IMG]

Fern

How much does all this custom work cost, As opposed with just going with a K20 swap and going from there since you would probabably have some better options available?