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Old 07-22-2009   #31  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Ok thanks. I guess myreal question is if I need to get a wideband and tune the afc or if my stock ecu is updating my fuel enough that I'm not going to run lean. Also I read that with a pnp head timing should be advanced
at least 2 degrees maybe 4. Is this a good idea. I don't have gear yet but can get one if necessary
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Old 07-22-2009   #32  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

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Originally Posted by jamis33 View Post
Ok thanks. I guess myreal question is if I need to get a wideband and tune the afc or if my stock ecu is updating my fuel enough that I'm not going to run lean. Also I read that with a pnp head timing should be advanced
at least 2 degrees maybe 4. Is this a good idea. I don't have gear yet but can get one if necessary
In my opinion, right now a wide-band is not needed. Your factory o2 sensor adjusts just fine and if it isn't you can adjust with your afc. With just a stage 1 cam you don't need to know the exact air/fuel ratio. U just pop it in and go for the most part. You will know when you are running lean when your header starts to get really blue on one or more primaries (at least on motorcycles this is the case). Idk if you need to advance your timing with your setup try asking Crower. Advancing and retarding your camshaft timing can get tricky depending on the lift and duration of the cam profile etc... Advancing the timing will open the valves sooner giving more low end power but close them sooner as well not letting in as much air in higher rpms, Retarding the cam timing will open the valves later and close them later giving less power in the lower end and more in the higher. Just ask Crower on what you should do. Im willing to bet they will say leave it the same. Also another note, if your intake runners are smaller than your intake ports you have pretty much defeated the point of porting your head. Its the same concept of the bottle neck that was mentioned about the exhaust. If the runners are the same size and not matched to the port size they are not letting more are in the head.

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Old 07-23-2009   #33  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

wow! some info definitely needs to be dropped on this thread.

first off you do not have a mini me swap mini me swap raises the compression in the cylinders and they are notorious for leaking oil you just have a regular v-tec head swap.

second the questions that I am kinda of surprised a number of people have not asked you yet is did you replace the head gasket when you did the head swap? if you ddin't that is why you are having coolant and possibly oil issues.

third cam gear isn't going to do **** for you! you are a single cam if you could change the overlap it would be one thing but you can't. If you retard it 1 degree you will lose 3 hp if you advance it 1 degree you will loose 3hp. I have tested this on the dyno andyman97 has tested this on the dyno a bunch of other people have also you will not gain any power only loose power from sticking on an adjustable cam gear and moving it.

4th don't tune it the stage 1 cam was never meant to be radical enough to need tuning. that cam was designed around the stock map on the engine. the stock ecu tends to run pig rich so there is plenty of fuel even if it leans out some you will not lean out anywhere near close to detonation or harmful temp levels. the engine will run hotter though but not enough to do any damage or hurt the life of the motor in the long run. also the color of the runners on the headers is not a good indicator of if you are running too hot in fact that is one of the worst thing I have ever heard. every engine is too different for that to be precise. and you can get any color you want if you drive it long enough

5th vtec it should be some were from 3600 rpm to 4200 rpm on those engines and I suggest 3600 0r 3800 rpm for the stage 1 cam. you run vtec to low you will run into oiling issues in the head (2200 and lower seems to do it) you run it to high you will damage the lost motion assembly in the rocker arm assembly from it trying to switch over with it moving to fast.

6th exhaust like triz stated earlier put in a race header. the cat is the biggest restriction with the stage 1 cam get rid of it and you will notice a big difference. If you want to be cheap all you need is an ebay knock off shorty ex race header and cat delete pipe and a cat back and you will be good to with some defoulers you will notice that your throttle response will greatly improve when you open up the exhaust.

i just installed the stage 1 on curiousg's car about 2 months ago and just did the valve lash on a stage 1 for o2civicrider last month.

I hope this info helps you out good luck with everything
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Old 07-23-2009   #34  
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Smile Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

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first off you do not have a mini me swap mini me swap raises the compression in the cylinders and they are notorious for leaking oil you just have a regular v-tec head swap.
ummm... isn't a vtec head swap on a single cam IN FACT a mini me swap.....? i have never in my life seen heard or read about mini me swaps burning oil if performed properly.

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second the questions that I am kinda of surprised a number of people have not asked you yet is did you replace the head gasket when you did the head swap? if you ddin't that is why you are having coolant and possibly oil issues.
if a proper head gasket was not used the car would run like absolute ****. Also, i believe he stated earlier that there was no coolant in his oil and his problem was leaking coolant only. He didn't say anything about smoke out the exhaust pipe or any other of the symptoms of a bad head gasket.

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also the color of the runners on the headers is not a good indicator of if you are running too hot in fact that is one of the worst thing I have ever heard. every engine is too different for that to be precise. and you can get any color you want if you drive it long enough
i agree. The metal in those headers is going to turn a different color due to heat from exhaust, horrible way to tell if your mixture is rich/lean.

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5th vtec it should be some were from 3600 rpm to 4200 rpm on those engines and I suggest 3600 0r 3800 rpm for the stage 1 cam.
I may not be the most knowledgable person in the world (definately not the best speller either). However, I do know that you have to allow the engine to make its natural power before you engage the vtec system. The engine is capable of making good power on its own without vtec, vtec is just there to give it peak power at the top of the rpm band. It may feel like your engine is pulling harder but if you look on a dyno, setting the vtec low is actually reducing hp output. It's all about air velocity and pumping efficiencies and all those other thermodynamic topics we all enjoy reading about. The only engine that I have ever driven that had VTEC set anywhere remotely close to what you recommend is the J30/32. Honda puts the vtec up higher for a reason, 5700 when I had a single cam and unless the engine has been stroked or stage 2/3 mods have been done to that engine, changing the vtec point is dumb.

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6th exhaust like triz stated earlier put in a race header. the cat is the biggest restriction with the stage 1 cam get rid of it and you will notice a big difference.
I hate to have to disagree with you again but no you will not be swept off your feet by any gains from removing the cat. Don't get me wrong I took mine off too but thats cuz it has 125,000 miles on it, it was clogged and I couldn't afford a new one. On turbo cars, yes the cat makes a huge difference. On NA cars, particularly a SOHC with basic mods? not really. Removing the cat for a test pipe made 4 hp on a dyno by superstreet on a B16 Civic Si with intake and exhaust. Your better off putting a true high flow cat from magnaflow on there, you won't have to worry about changing **** out for emissions that way either.


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race header and cat delete pipe and a cat back and you will be good to with some defoulers you will notice that your throttle response will greatly improve when you open up the exhaust.
so will interior cabin noise, drone while cruising, and attention from the fuzz. Exhausts just don't make a whole lot of power on single cams. Sorry. Maybe 5? and thats a conservative estimate. The honda exhaust system is surprisingly very well engineered. Remember you sacrifice some low end power when going with larger piping.... thats the end of the powerband you use the most btw.

Instead of spending all this money with small bits here and there, if you want to make real power, get a K series, spray or boost. Can Honda engines make lots of power NA? absolutely the k series can make 350 whp with a Toda power package. The single cam? The most hp ive seen that car make to the wheels is 143 or so, and that is with SHITTY streetability.

Not trying to be a dick guys, just trying to help.

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Old 07-23-2009   #35  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

[QUOTE=Running Riot;4426544]ummm... isn't a vtec head swap on a single cam IN FACT a mini me swap.....? i have never in my life seen heard or read about mini me swaps burning oil if performed properly.


the real mini me swap is done on the d16/15 motor you are switch out to a different vtec head but that is not the main reason for it. the main reason is in doing it on the original min me swap is to raise the compression in raises it to about 11.2 or 11.5 to 1. it's for the compression not for the vtec the vtec is an added bonus go up on hondatech they are notoroius for leaking over on the distributor side it's a small leak but it does make a mess after a while number of people have had this problem the only way to seem to fix this is with rtv or honda bond on the edge of the head and block


if a proper head gasket was not used the car would run like absolute ****. Also, i believe he stated earlier that there was no coolant in his oil and his problem was leaking coolant only. He didn't say anything about smoke out the exhaust pipe or any other of the symptoms of a bad head gasket.



nope the car can run fine on the d17 with a bad head gasket I had one bad gasket it ran fine a lot of other people with the d17 have had bad head gaskets and it ran fine the big problem would be that it would either push or burn coolant but it had enough of a seal that actual engine performance was not effected till you ran out of coolant or got enough air in the line. and that is more it is running like **** cause you have no coolant running through the motor. and it does not always leak coolant or into the oil or vice versa the big thing is as the rpm's go up the pressure builds the head starts to lift at the cylinder walls just enough to squeeze air past into the water jacket and then you get air in the line but the pressure is not great enough to lift the rest of the head on the outer section of the water jacket to let coolant get into the oil ports or vice versa that are on the very outskirts of the head. this is due to were the oil ports are in the head and the bolt pattern.



i agree. The metal in those headers is going to turn a different color due to heat from exhaust, horrible way to tell if your mixture is rich/lean.


wide band or egt is the only way to truly tell


I may not be the most knowledgable person in the world (definately not the best speller either). However, I do know that you have to allow the engine to make its natural power before you engage the vtec system. The engine is capable of making good power on its own without vtec, vtec is just there to give it peak power at the top of the rpm band. It may feel like your engine is pulling harder but if you look on a dyno, setting the vtec low is actually reducing hp output. It's all about air velocity and pumping efficiencies and all those other thermodynamic topics we all enjoy reading about. The only engine that I have ever driven that had VTEC set anywhere remotely close to what you recommend is the J30/32. Honda puts the vtec up higher for a reason, 5700 when I had a single cam and unless the engine has been stroked or stage 2/3 mods have been done to that engine, changing the vtec point is dumb.



you have to understand the d17 is completely different from pretty much every honda motor out there the head does not flow anywhere near as well as the d15 or d16 the motor was designed as an eco-tech motor. this is were the vtec point likes to be believe I know better than any one when it comes to the d17 I helped build the most powerful turbo d17 and I have the most powerful N/A d17 I have played with the every single one of the crower d17 cams the stage 2 turbo, the the stage N/A, and the stage 3 all on the dyno and I have played with the stage 1 on the street. changing the v-tec point on these motors can make a very big difference if you have a cam in it.



here is a little excerpt straight from hondata on tuning the vtec point

Warning:

Do not set the VTEC point too low as the engine will lose oil pressure and possibly damage the engine. It is not recommended to set the VTEC point below 2000 rpm.

Do not set the VTEC point too high as the high speed cam rocker arm may float on the lost motion assembly, damaging the valve spring retainers. It is not recommended to set the VTEC point over 6500 rpm.



The determine the best VTEC point perform two dyno runs, one with VTEC set low (e.g. 3000 rpm) and the other run with VTEC set high (e.g. 6500 rpm). Set the VTEC point to the intersection of the high speed cam and the low speed cam. Generally if there is a sudden increase in engine output immediately after the cams switch then lower VTEC. Conversely if there is a sudden dip in engine output then raise the VTEC point. Since the VTEC point will be at the intersection of the low speed and high speed cam torque curves, it is normal for the torque to dip around the VTEC point.







I hate to have to disagree with you again but no you will not be swept off your feet by any gains from removing the cat. Don't get me wrong I took mine off too but thats cuz it has 125,000 miles on it, it was clogged and I couldn't afford a new one. On turbo cars, yes the cat makes a huge difference. On NA cars, particularly a SOHC with basic mods? not really. Removing the cat for a test pipe made 4 hp on a dyno by superstreet on a B16 Civic Si with intake and exhaust. Your better off putting a true high flow cat from magnaflow on there, you won't have to worry about changing **** out for emissions that way either.





*but they did not change out the cam* the stock piping is extremely restrictive on the d17 since it is ulev and not lev. the stock set up on the si already flows very nice so you really won't see any gains. you have not pulled that cat on 7thgen with a crower stage 1 I have. you can ask curiousG or 02civicrider and they can both vouch it makes a difference I have since restriction from just using a shorty race header on the dyno instead of a long tube race header. crower cam generates a lot more pressure on the exhaust side than the stock cam and it needs to get out and breathe




so will interior cabin noise, drone while cruising, and attention from the fuzz. Exhausts just don't make a whole lot of power on single cams. Sorry. Maybe 5? and thats a conservative estimate. The honda exhaust system is surprisingly very well engineered. Remember you sacrifice some low end power when going with larger piping.... thats the end of the powerband you use the most btw.




all depends on how good you are at setting up an exhaust system on how much noise it makes you do that right combo of mufflers and resonators you can make it supper quite and not hinder flow. Greddy evo exhaust megan cat delete and megan shorty race with crower stage 1 cam barely makes any noise it is louder than stock but ti does not drone or for that matter really noticeable. also that how you loose low end from going to big argument is pretty much bullshit they have tested this in the past couple of years and disproved it. yeah if you run just straight headers you will but the stock exhaust ports on the head or so restrictive you can run an 8.5 pound flywheel full long tube race header and full straight through 2.5 inch exhaust you will still have plenty of bottom end.



here is an excerpt from evans tuning (I would say one of the top 3 honda tuners in the country) on his checklist for exhaust there are also dyno graphs up on hondatech proving that less restriction helps and does not hurt.


Exhaust: All turbo cars should run a minimum of 3 downpipe, test pipe, and exhaust. Those looking to pass visual inspection should run a gutted 3 hi-flow cat.

All motor and supercharged B and D-series motors can run a 2.5 exhaust. A 3 exhaust is not necessary, but will not hurt power if it is used. All motor, supercharged, and nitrous K and H-series motors should use 3 exhausts.




Instead of spending all this money with small bits here and there, if you want to make real power, get a K series, spray or boost. Can Honda engines make lots of power NA? absolutely the k series can make 350 whp with a Toda power package. The single cam? The most hp ive seen that car make to the wheels is 143 or so, and that is with SHITTY streetability.



djmota hit 149 hp on the d17. I have hit 144 hp before and that was when the car was slow and all the exhaust gaskets blew out on the drive to the dyno. and I am pushing more probably 160 170(don't know how much yet need to get to the dyno) I can give the new si a car length and walk right past it. driveability: it drives like stock just a lot faster. Idles smooth as butter lots and lots of low end power (too much low end tq IMO) power throughout the whole rpm band. really easy to drive if you can handle the clutch. hehehe.



Not trying to be a dick guys, just trying to help.


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Old 07-23-2009   #36  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

ein minuten bitte, your saying the d17 is an econobox motor..... yet it puts out the same amount of power as the previous model before it. you missed my point about removing the cat, the point was on a bolt on modded b16 it made 4 hp. No d17 is going to have a better flowing head IMHO and using one cam to do the work of two may be fuel efficient but not performance efficient. If with a better flowing head, better cams and a more performance oriented engine it only made 4hp that i highly doubt you get any REAL gains from removing the cat on a d17 single cam. You can say OH YEAH I NOTICED A DIFFERENCE but man, you know as well as i do people say that about K&N drop in filters and they really don't do ****. As far as the vtec point goes, Honda set it at 2700 for a good reason, and especially with just a stage 1 (basically a tuner cam) there is no need to change it. As far as I've always known, Cams are meant to increase top end power (on NA) cars so if vtec is engages at 2700 then what would be the point of raising it?
My driveability point, i know people that use 6 puck clutches that require a **** load of clamping power and I consider a pain in the *** to drive. But the people that have them love them, again subjective. You can make 143 hp on your d17 NA (as i stated thats about the most ive seen all motor) and you can think it drives like stock, then someone else gets in it and says wow this car rides shitty. I'm not saying yours does all im saying is that it's a matter of opinion.
As far as exhausts go, what you think sounds good i could think sounds like the sound of a cheap hooker getting a cleveland steamer and vice versa. There is no way of measuring attractiveness of a sound, emperically anyways, its subjective. However what can be measured is dB and audible sound and you can not argue that exhaust systems (generally) increase the amount of audible sound both inside and outside the car. And you still have the point of police attention (bad) and most likely if you live in a state where emissions are an issue then you will get negative attention from the law for it.
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Old 07-23-2009   #37  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

you still don't get it about he cat on a b16 you won't see any gains from removing the cat because it flows well from the factory there is not much on improvement in some areas of the b16. were the d17 stock is a bad design and there is much to be improved and you can greatly improve the flow and breathing of the engine just by removing that cat. let put it this way if you took the stock exhaust off the integra type R from header back and stuck it on the d17 you would see an improvement it is that tight with back pressure on the stock system on the d17. honestly most people that have spent there whole time on b's and k's and the older d's don't really know what to do when it comes to the d17 it is a different animal than most hondafiles have seen. and like I mentioned also before the d17 is ulev not lev the cat is of a different standard then you would find on a b series it flows less then a b-series cat so taking it out does free up a bunch.

as far as exhaust on the previous system that I mentioned before with the greddy evo you could put it up on a decibel meter and be perfectly fine.

and yeah I can say my car drives like stock but then everyone else can get in it and say it drives like stock to. and you can size a clutch right so that it is not a pain in the *** if you do your homework. I really don't have to prove to any one how nice my car drives everyone else already Knows it. and that is probably the biggest problem with the industry everyone thinks that if a car is souped up or a race car it has to be a pain in the *** to drive. not if it is setup up properly.

and cam/cams are not designed to raise just the top end of the power band. things like exhaust help with the top end cause it helps it gett all the gasses out sooner so you can keep spinning. cams raise power through out the entire power band. the crower stage 3 cam pretty much raise the most amount of power in the bottom end of the power band (2100 rpm) caries it all the way up to about 6000 then expects the static compression from boost or high comp pistons to take over and carry the engine the rest of the way.

the point in changing the v-tec point up to 3600-3800 rpm is because if it is down at 2700 like stock that only the *stock cam* was meant for. then you start making power and the car will run good and then it will fall flat on it's *** at 2700 rpm when it switches over to v-tec cause the motor will not be spinning fast enough and not have enough pressure to keep it going and carry it up to the power band of higer lobes. it will be just like you were at the light trying to drag and you short shifted up too early and you have to wait and sit till the car climbs back up into the rpm band. or trying to start off in second or third gear. This is why tuning the vtec point on a honda is so important. there is no relation between the stock cam and the crower stage 1 the make the motor into a completely different animal. this is why cams can be so desirable and choosing the right one can be very difficult. you want the power band to be as smooth as possible. if the vtec is off too much from were it was designed on the cam (cause really that is what determines were the real v-tec point the cam) it throws the power band so you tend to have nasty spikes in it which will then cause the car to have really shitty driveabilty cause it will be very peaky and not smooth.

oh and the reason the d17 makes more power than the older d16 even though it has a more restrictive head is due to the fact that it is stroked and they got rid of the stupid distributor and went with coil packs so you can tune everything much more precisely. so it is running better maps than the d16 from the factory there are a lot of cars you gain a lot more power out of just by tweaking the map.
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

well your right about tuning the d17, I've never really divulged much into the d17, mostly Ks Bs and Ds. I've read about massive gains with Kpro only but not with simple bolt ons. As far as cats go, i still would have to see a dyno to be convinced that removing the cat (on an NA) makes enough hp to justify crawling under the car every time emissions comes around.
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Quote:
the engine will run hotter though but not enough to do any damage or hurt the life of the motor in the long run. also the color of the runners on the headers is not a good indicator of if you are running too hot in fact that is one of the worst thing I have ever heard.
Pretty sure that's why i said with motorcycles. You have a normal amount of bluing from the heat yes, but if you have a primary that is getting significantly more bluing further down the pipe than the others it could be an indication that that cylinder is running lean. Not always the case but It can suggest that something needs to be checked. I am by no means a technical guru, but no one was really answering this guys questions completely so I chimed in with what I have.
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Old 07-24-2009   #40  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Pretty damn good discussion so far.

As for exhausts, I totally agree with bomerman. Its impossible to compare the exhaust of a B16 with the exhaust of a D17. Hell, even between the D17a1 and D17a2 the exhausts are totally different- yeah the hangers are in the same locations but the science is totally different, flow and restrictiveness, cat placement, type, length and size- the headers are a completely different design all together that have only their bolt pattern in common.

From my experience, I can say:
On any stock setup D17a1 (thats a dx/lx for those that didnt know and are still reading this thread) your best off swapping over to a stock EX exhaust for two reasons. A) the cat is restrictive, even though its so wide and B) the header flows like complete ****- its more of a log style manifold then anything else, the guys from back in the day that ran the log style HKS manifold will agree that it doesnt flow very efficient.


If you have swaped to an EX exhaust system on your LX you'll notice a power increase in the low end torque, and top end power, throw a decent catback on and you'll notice an even better increase due to flow. With my V2 intake, stock EX header, stock EX down pipe w/ cat, and DC TCS catback I put down 107hp, and 107.7tq on a dynojet (thats to the wheels)- I do have the dyno to prove it. If you can manage to dig up the dyno for a stock DX/LX motor (high 80's to low 90's) you'll see thats a madd increase in HP as far as these motors go.

Point made.

Now imagine swapping the exhaust from the type R...

The ulev (ULTRA low emissions vehicle) is made to produce super low emissions... not madd throw you back in your seat power and torque. There is one cam... not two, again... power wasnt the goal. Truth is, the D17 is a great motor... for fuel economy. We're young guys looking for power, and we're looking in the wrong spot if we're looking for the easiest power. You gotta put in more time to understand the D17 if you want to make power on it, you also have to throw some money down- probably more money then the same part would cost on a B series because the D17 isnt crazy big in the aftermarket performance world because its not a performance motor. You cant just bolt some parts on and expect it to go fast. It wont... It will still go slow with some blinging parts that do zero for performance. Aftermarket parts dont make you go fast. The right parts make you go fast. A shorty header by whoever-the-**** company isnt going to be any better for performance then the stock EX header. They look the same, the runners are the same length, the inlet and outlet ports are the same- its just shiny, big whoop.

Lets not make this thread into a pissing contest... If you read a post by someone that did it, that doesnt make you an expert. Real world experience coming from those that did it is where the real knowledge is at, and I tip my hat to bomerman.

Last edited by TRIZ; 07-24-2009 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 07-24-2009   #41  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

ok again it isnt about how much better one exhaust flows better than another. all i said was it made 4 hp on a b16 if the b16 exhaust lfows better how much do you expect it to make on a d17 was my point
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Alright, dynos are very subjective. You have to ask yourself several questions

A) what kinda dyno is it- did it measure at the flywheel (where HP is always going to read more) or to the wheels (where power will read less, but be much more accurate as to what your car is performing)... and when I say to the wheels, I mean to the wheels with the wheels on it- not the dynos that read at the axle- you just throw a 25 lb wheel on and you killed a significant amount of the HP. Also, was the dyno calibrated correctly- dynos can be thrown off of calibrations just like anything else in the world.

B) What are the conditions it was tested in- temperature and humidity are by far the two biggest factors... after that if your bearings are lubed, your motor oil.. ect, everything else will make very small differences, most if not all of them null.

C) Then there are other differences that I"m a little too buzzed to get into right now.

Point being, to compare two cars and their dynos you need to have not only the EXACT same setup except for the part in question of adding how much HP, but you need to have the EXACT same conditions and EXACT same dynos calibrated EXACTLY the same.


FOR EXAMPLE: COMPARING AN INTAKE ON A "STOCK" CAR.....

Dyno A- Stock + intake = 104hp
Dyno B- Stock = 100hp

Now how could this be..... lets see.... They were tested on the same type of dyno...

Dyno A - Stock + intake
100% humidity
130 degrees
No blower in front of the car
Parts: Stock- the car has been neglected all around and the owner just added an intake... The owner also has 25lb rims with brand new uber high mileage tires (aka some thick *** long lasting rubber) that are, unfortunately, severely underinflated

Dyno B - Stock
20% humidity
45 degrees
Two massive blowers in front of the car
Parts: Stock- well taken care of, all new fluids.... except for and lightweight rims w/ almost bald tires on nitrogen
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Old 07-25-2009   #43  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Triz I like that look... that's probably how AEM and stuff dyno their intakes, throw them on a perfect car up against a stock car in terrible running condition so they can ay a short ram gives you 5 HP when really you're lucky to gain .5... by the way, I've been thinking about a mini me swap and thanks for this argument, I don't know enough to take sides, I just enjoyed reading it/thought it was all good information and helpful
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Riot View Post
ok again it isnt about how much better one exhaust flows better than another. all i said was it made 4 hp on a b16 if the b16 exhaust lfows better how much do you expect it to make on a d17 was my point

Dude, ur comparing two different beasts. Paul (bomerman19) knows his **** about the d17. Waste of time arguing cause you"ll never win.
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Old 07-25-2009   #45  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

OMG why is it so hard to understand? Bomerman knows his **** i conceded that point, but i am not trying to argue at all I am merely making a point, and you can read it to your heart's content....

IF A B16 WHICH WE ALL KNOW OUT PERFORMS THE D17 ONLY MADE 4HP THEN HOW CAN YOU EXPECT IT TO MAKE MORE THAN THAT ON A D17 BY SIMPLY REMOVING THE CAT?! True there is a more aggressive cam from the factory that he put on his car, but that means his gains didn't simply come from the deletion of the cat.

The cat on the civic is the same as the integra and the civic ex dx cx vx etc the only variation is the location. all civics/integras (to my knowledge and yes except the civic and integra r) from 88-00 use a 1 7/8" exhaust pipe. On the type R the magra of the Civic/Integra platform only 5 netted from removing the cat. So even with a cam (that is probably still not nearly as aggresive as the stock cams on B series vtecs) how can you expect a much higher gain?

That is the point i am trying to make. In no way shape or form am I trying to take away from bomerman's expertise.... I am simply making a point. That's all.

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Old 07-25-2009   #46  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

OMG why is it so hard to understand? Bomerman knows his **** i conceded that point, but i am not trying to argue at all I am merely making a point, and you can read it to your heart's content....

IF A B16 WHICH WE ALL KNOW OUT PERFORMS THE D17 ONLY MADE 4HP THEN HOW CAN YOU EXPECT IT TO MAKE MORE THAN THAT ON A D17 BY SIMPLY REMOVING THE CAT?! True there is a more aggressive cam from the factory that he put on his car, but that means his gains didn't simply come from the deletion of the cat.

The cat on the civic is the same as the integra and the civic ex dx cx vx etc the only variation is the location. all civics/integras (to my knowledge) from 88-00 use a 1 7/8" exhaust pipe. On the type R the magra of the Civic/Integra platform only 5 netted from removing the cat. So even with a cam (that is probably still not nearly as aggresive as the stock cams on B series vtecs) how can you expect a much higher gain?

That is the point i am trying to make. In no way shape or form am I trying to take away from bomerman's expertise.... I am simply making a point. That's all.
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Old 07-25-2009   #47  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Okay, we get that your not trying to attack bomerman, but your still not getting it obviously...

Between the D17 and B16 the cats are DIFFERENT and so are the EXHAUSTS. Possibly they all have the same size... I'd have to double check... but as I said, even between the cat on the LX and the cat on the EX in the 7th gen civics its COMPLETLY different. So going and saying they have the same cats as the integras and type R's from other years and motors is ludacris.
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Old 07-25-2009   #48  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

i didnt say the d17 and the itr had the same cat i said the 2000 Civic Si EM1 etc did.

but at least my point is understood........ i think.

still I would like to see physical proof that removing a cat nets big gains on a NA engine.
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Old 07-27-2009   #49  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

I was meandering through the classifieds on CF and i saw this guy selling his kamikaze header from his d17. You should pick it up.

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...-sale-buy.html

theres another guy selling a header and resonated test pipe for 150 on there too. Lot's of good parts
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Old 07-27-2009   #50  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

I did the EX exhaust swap on my LX already and am running a catless 4-2-1 DC race header. Its "teh ****"
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Old 07-27-2009   #51  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

there's a bunch of cheap'o em2 parts in there. check em out
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Old 07-28-2009   #52  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

I already did, I was the first post in the thread.
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Old 07-30-2009   #53  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Well guys Learned some good lessons lately. Like why we listen when our mechanics tell us our gaskets suck. Coolant housing was leaking so went to tighten and broke the stud. Then waited 5 days for Honda to get the right gasket
in. But now the car runs amazing and milage has seemed to stabilize since it isn't
overheating as much. Trackday on Sunday. Should give me a good feeling for
what this monster can do.
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Old 07-31-2009   #54  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

The funny part is that you coulda probably made the gasket yourself for a lot cheaper in an hour or two tops. Mr Gasket FTW
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Old 07-31-2009   #55  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

Ya I probably could have and it would have saved a lot of time but I was surprised the
part from Honda was only $7.
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Old 07-31-2009   #56  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

soory internet has been flaky for me lately so kind of hard to get on about the cat the em1 cat is not the same as the cat on the em2. the main reason for the body style change from the 6th gen civic to the 7thgen civic is cause of emissions specs in the us teamed up along with revised saftey and theft prevention specs. the U.S. tends to release all out at the same time so the car manufacture can just change out the whole model that way they don't just have to change out small things along the model line. anyways the emissions system changed and basically for the cat they stuck in what I would call a thicker brick for a cat. if you really want to break 105hp your are going to have to pull the cat mind you these cars dyno at like triz said high 80'2 low 90's.

also you ever notice that the super street magazine always has either a dc sports product to test or an AEM product to test(same company) super street and a couple other magazine like to do what I call staged dyno runs yeah they get results but it is just not the same as real world.

oh and the motorcycle thing I have done some work on some bikes it is the same you can't judge off the runners cause all you need to do is runn the bike long enough and it will turn blue eventually.


and thanks for the compliment triz much appreciated.
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Old 07-31-2009   #57  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

then i concede my point. See simple conversation not trying to make it a "pissing contest"
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Old 07-31-2009   #58  
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

I always wanted to do staged dyno runs... which led to me pricing out a dyno to put in the garage in my house. HAHA. Needless to say, its madd expensive and totally unfeasible. But I could hold DYNO days at my house, how sick would that be? A house in the burbs with a mother****ing dyno.
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

yeah I have priced dynos too cause I have been contemplating opening up my own shop but they are too expensive
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Re: Joined the NA game OFFICIALLY! NA info inside

There is this thing thats cheap enough to try out... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000YTI0RW


Or buy used: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dynoc...m#ht_500wt_924
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