Rep Power: 0

My 05 Civic stalled out as I stopped, engine light comes on, and poor acceleration. I got the car into a parking lot, restarted, and 4 things happened: rpm fluctuation from 0-800 or 900, flickering engine light, battery light turns on, and loud clicking sound. I got towed to the Honda dealership, and when they started the car up, there was a smell of burnt wiring or something. In addition, my scanner or the dealer's scanner would not link up with the car. I was told the ECU was done...any ideas? Agree? Disagree?

If it makes a difference, I had the timing belt, water pump, and a valve adjustment done recently (preventative maintenance @ 120k mi) which I had them recheck since everything started going wrong after this work.

 
Rep Power: 518

Oh I see why your other thread had that...

Yep, agree. But it's their fault IMO.


Let me stir the poop pile a bit here.....
(Speculation, based entirely on....um....I know exactly how this happens, but I'm not there to verify what happened.)

They left the bolts loose for the alternator when they did the timing belt job.
Your PCM is now toast because they left the bolts loose.
It's a well known problem, and IMHO it's clearly their fault.

And it's a real common human error. Here's a copy of the service info put out by Honda about this very failure....
It's on the first page titled:
Engine Won%u2019t Start? Check for Loose Alternator Bolts

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...56146854,d.aWM
(should open a PDF)



They owe you a running car, now at their expense.

Let us see if there is a shred of integrity there in that shop.




The mechanic that botched the original timing belt job will never admit fault. Hell, if he did that poor of a job he probably can't even fathom how a couple of loose bolts could EVER possibly cause this new problem.

The rest of the crew or person that figured it out this time already knows what happened (I HOPE), and if they realize the car was JUST in the shop for the timing belt will also realize it's the fault of the timing belt butcher.
(If they don't know what caused it and correct that problem, then it will ruin another PCM.)

The service advisor only sees shrinking dollar signs and will never tell you it's their fault. Nobody wants to lose money, SOMEONE has to pay for it.

--------------------------------------------------


I see a fight ahead.
10 rounds, no protective headgear...... Bump gloves and come out fighting at the bell!

 
Rep Power: 518

And the info linked applies to 05 even though it isn't specifically stated in print. The info was released in 2004.

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks for the pdf, they won't get the part until Monday so, I can bring this up before another PCM possibly gets fried. My repair skills are only at the general maintenance level, or if I sit down and study the repair manual on simpler jobs, so how exactly do the loose bolts cause alternator overcharging?

 
Rep Power: 518

From the link: If these bolts are loose for any reason such as the alternator was R&R%u2019ed, or an accessory A/C was installed on a DX model at the dealership, the alternator can overcharge and fry the ECM/PCM.

The alternator is removed in order to replace the timing belt on that engine.
That's why I speculated this is entirely the fault of whomever did the timing belt job (and they owe you a running car at no extra cost to yourself).


-------------------------------------------------------

The PCM controls the voltage regulator and controls the charging of the alternator.

In a basic sense, the alternator has lost its ground, and the PCM keeps trying to regulate the voltage to what it THINKS is appropriate.

It has to do with ground potential and how the regulated voltage is measured. If there is no solid connection between the alternator and its chassis ground, then ground and voltage can float far higher than its surroundings, even though the alternator may still be putting out the correct voltage when measured by itself.

Sort of like wiring up batteries in series. Stacking voltage.
If you wire up a pair of 12 volt batteries in series, you get 24 volts. If you wire them in parallel, you still have 12 volts.
The car has a 12 volt battery and the alternator makes another 12 volts. If they lose their parallel circuit (grounding, in this case), then the voltages can stack up toward a series circuit.

Actual charging voltage is out of control at this point.

----------------------------------------

Anything that causes the alternator to overcharge can fry the PCM. The common cause is the loose mounting bolts as outlined in the bulletin linked earlier, but could also be other poor/bad grounds for block/trans/chassis.
My understanding is somewhere over 16-18v starts damaging the 12v electronics....Even a battery charger/booster could cause damage.


Did that make it as clear as mud?
You can search this site for more on the subject, I've written many other posts on this issue here.
HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks for the info, I scheduled a meeting with the general manager on Monday (not sure if it will accomplish anything) and go through every event that's happened within the last 3 weeks since it seems the service manager, reps, and mechanics continue to claim no link between their work and the new issues. Doesn't help that my car is dead in the water and sitting in their garage. I was looking around the engine compartment while waiting for a tow and noticed what I think is a plastic crankshaft cover unseated and damaged where the bolt should be. There is a small wiring harness with wires leading somewhere...is that some kind of cam sensor? Would it have to be removed to access anything during the valve adj? Obviously they denied any fault when I brought it up. I'm suspicious because the power steering reservoir was unsecure, assuming they needed access to that area.

 
Rep Power: 204

Not to fuel the fire or anything...but that's pretty tough leaving your car in their shop. Certainly gives them time to perhaps cover their tracks. Deal with everybody be a nice as you can and go higher up the food chain if the dealer doesn't give the result your looking for.

I had I very small (in comparison) problem with my local dealership and chose not to deal with them at all over an issue with my car. By some stroke of coincidence Honda (Canada?) Emailed me a survey form regarding my experience with that appointment with the dealership.

I wrote probably 3 pages of information regarding how I felt about the people, the problem and the dealership in that survey thinking nothing would ever become of it. Hey I drive a 15 year old Honda and the work that was involved was $300 labour $300 parts...who cares..right?

Apparently Honda cares. They more than resolved my problem 3 fold in the end. They also named everybody in that dealership to me in a written letter and told me there would be no further problems.

Keep in mind the entire time I dealt with everybody and the survey I was polite and objective about the issues. Never said things like "I'll never deal with .... (who ever) again"..... or stuff like terrible people or place, etc. I really do think it makes a BIG difference to stay clam, be polite and keep your eye on the goal that will make you satisfied (feel whole) in the end of the day.

my 02

good luck

 
Rep Power: 518

Well said.

I'm NOT a diplomat, by any means.



I need to edit this down because some of that was speculation on my part. What actually happens during the failure I have never seen in print.