Suspension Tuning 101
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that may be, but obviously you and these other owners are adding the larger bar in order to create more oversteer. i understand, its the cheapest way to bring the back end out. however, this does not create a neutral handling car. many protege owners(non MP3 or MSP) are running larger sway bars in the rear only also. i'm not going to say its a bad thing, but you will run into snap oversteer.
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Autocross Junky
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Originally posted by mazdamx3rs
that may be, but obviously you and these other owners are adding the larger bar in order to create more oversteer. i understand, its the cheapest way to bring the back end out. however, this does not create a neutral handling car. many protege owners(non MP3 or MSP) are running larger sway bars in the rear only also. i'm not going to say its a bad thing, but you will run into snap oversteer.
that may be, but obviously you and these other owners are adding the larger bar in order to create more oversteer. i understand, its the cheapest way to bring the back end out. however, this does not create a neutral handling car. many protege owners(non MP3 or MSP) are running larger sway bars in the rear only also. i'm not going to say its a bad thing, but you will run into snap oversteer.
I have to disagree with you here,
FWD cars naturaly understeer, to reduce this inate understeer we increace the rear spring rate either by increacing the rate of the actual spring or by increacing the rate of the Anti-roll bar. There is a point where this will result in oversteer. However, like any other performance part on the car, you will have to tune the suspension to create a nutural handling car. this is where test and tune come in to play, and also why I have yet to get a Rear anti-roll bar (I want an adjustible one) If you were to test your suspension (Say on a 200 Ft skidpad), and found that it understeered, increace the rear spring rates or decreace the spring rates of the front. If you found that it oversteered, the either decreace the rates of the Rear or increace the front. That is how you create a nuturaly handling car.
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Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by Zzyzx
I have to disagree with you here,
FWD cars naturaly understeer, to reduce this inate understeer we increace the rear spring rate either by increacing the rate of the actual spring or by increacing the rate of the Anti-roll bar. There is a point where this will result in oversteer. However, like any other performance part on the car, you will have to tune the suspension to create a nutural handling car. this is where test and tune come in to play, and also why I have yet to get a Rear anti-roll bar (I want an adjustible one) If you were to test your suspension (Say on a 200 Ft skidpad), and found that it understeered, increace the rear spring rates or decreace the spring rates of the front. If you found that it oversteered, the either decreace the rates of the Rear or increace the front. That is how you create a nuturaly handling car.
I have to disagree with you here,
FWD cars naturaly understeer, to reduce this inate understeer we increace the rear spring rate either by increacing the rate of the actual spring or by increacing the rate of the Anti-roll bar. There is a point where this will result in oversteer. However, like any other performance part on the car, you will have to tune the suspension to create a nutural handling car. this is where test and tune come in to play, and also why I have yet to get a Rear anti-roll bar (I want an adjustible one) If you were to test your suspension (Say on a 200 Ft skidpad), and found that it understeered, increace the rear spring rates or decreace the spring rates of the front. If you found that it oversteered, the either decreace the rates of the Rear or increace the front. That is how you create a nuturaly handling car.
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Autocross Junky
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Rep Power: 380 This is just for Steady state cornering, like in a long sweeper. If you are turning for Transitional cornering, you need to tune the Dampeners (Shock absorbers). This is where you run in to "Snap Oversteer” in quick maneuvers. Spring simply determine how much weight gets transferred (Front or rear). The Dampeners determine how fast that weight is transferred on and off of each tire through Bump and rebound settings. Once again, test and tune.
If you are experiencing corner entry understeer, its possible that the front shocks are too soft in bump resistance. If you are experiencing Corner exit understeer then the rear shocks may be too soft in bump resistance(Do not confuse this with throttle induced understeer, thats driver error). IF you are experiencing Corner entry oversteer then the rear shocks are too soft in Rebound. If you are experiencing corner exit oversteer then the Rear shocks are too soft in rebound.
If you simply set your adjustable dampeners to full hard or full soft, then the only thing you are adjusting is the Ride quality. Your handling may suffer for this.
Remember, you have to tune the springs first, before you can tune the dampeners.
If you are experiencing corner entry understeer, its possible that the front shocks are too soft in bump resistance. If you are experiencing Corner exit understeer then the rear shocks may be too soft in bump resistance(Do not confuse this with throttle induced understeer, thats driver error). IF you are experiencing Corner entry oversteer then the rear shocks are too soft in Rebound. If you are experiencing corner exit oversteer then the Rear shocks are too soft in rebound.
If you simply set your adjustable dampeners to full hard or full soft, then the only thing you are adjusting is the Ride quality. Your handling may suffer for this.
Remember, you have to tune the springs first, before you can tune the dampeners.
Last edited by Zzyzx; Jun 27, 2003 at 01:03 PM.
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From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 424 Ok... here is the lab portion of this class....
I am running:
Stock Shocks and Springs (no idea on the rate)
Neuspeed Upper Front
Cusco Upper Rear
Spoon Lower Rear
RSX Rear Sway (19mm)
215/45/17 Yokohamas at 40 PSI front/34 PSI Rear
The car is dead neutral. The car has no real desire to oversteer at all... if you go to hard, it understeers ever so slightly however, it tends to slide sideways in such a way that all you have to do is mash the gas and you're out of it... WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Took me 6 fun runs worth of tinkering to figure the tire pressures out... if only I figured it out during the runs that counted.... The lowest one that counted was a 51.3xx... Getting the car balanced pushed that down to 49.786... Autocrossing just got a whole lot more fun
I am running:
Stock Shocks and Springs (no idea on the rate)
Neuspeed Upper Front
Cusco Upper Rear
Spoon Lower Rear
RSX Rear Sway (19mm)
215/45/17 Yokohamas at 40 PSI front/34 PSI Rear
The car is dead neutral. The car has no real desire to oversteer at all... if you go to hard, it understeers ever so slightly however, it tends to slide sideways in such a way that all you have to do is mash the gas and you're out of it... WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Took me 6 fun runs worth of tinkering to figure the tire pressures out... if only I figured it out during the runs that counted.... The lowest one that counted was a 51.3xx... Getting the car balanced pushed that down to 49.786... Autocrossing just got a whole lot more fun
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From: Houston, Texas, US
Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by Zzyzx
I have to disagree with you here,
FWD cars naturaly understeer, to reduce this inate understeer we increace the rear spring rate either by increacing the rate of the actual spring or by increacing the rate of the Anti-roll bar. There is a point where this will result in oversteer. However, like any other performance part on the car, you will have to tune the suspension to create a nutural handling car. this is where test and tune come in to play, and also why I have yet to get a Rear anti-roll bar (I want an adjustible one) If you were to test your suspension (Say on a 200 Ft skidpad), and found that it understeered, increace the rear spring rates or decreace the spring rates of the front. If you found that it oversteered, the either decreace the rates of the Rear or increace the front. That is how you create a nuturaly handling car.
I have to disagree with you here,
FWD cars naturaly understeer, to reduce this inate understeer we increace the rear spring rate either by increacing the rate of the actual spring or by increacing the rate of the Anti-roll bar. There is a point where this will result in oversteer. However, like any other performance part on the car, you will have to tune the suspension to create a nutural handling car. this is where test and tune come in to play, and also why I have yet to get a Rear anti-roll bar (I want an adjustible one) If you were to test your suspension (Say on a 200 Ft skidpad), and found that it understeered, increace the rear spring rates or decreace the spring rates of the front. If you found that it oversteered, the either decreace the rates of the Rear or increace the front. That is how you create a nuturaly handling car.
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From: TX
Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by mazdamx3rs
i agree with you 100% on this. that is why i'm saying that only replacing the rear sway bar, and none of the other components is the cheapest, but not the best path to curing understeer problems. tuning all components at the same is what will create the best results. i bring up snap oversteer because as you said if your shocks are too soft(ie stock) it can happen.
i agree with you 100% on this. that is why i'm saying that only replacing the rear sway bar, and none of the other components is the cheapest, but not the best path to curing understeer problems. tuning all components at the same is what will create the best results. i bring up snap oversteer because as you said if your shocks are too soft(ie stock) it can happen.
...you responded to my first post by saying "that may be, but obviously you and these other owners are adding the larger bar in order to create more oversteer. i understand, its the cheapest way to bring the back end out. however, this does not create a neutral handling car. many protege owners(non MP3 or MSP) are running larger sway bars in the rear only also. i'm not going to say its a bad thing, but you will run into snap oversteer."
...i was definitely not referring to only replacing the rear bar. I have replaced the rear bar... along with the struts, and have coilovers. The SCCA racers that you were referring to as "these other owners" have completely tuned their suspension as well.
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Rep Power: 412 the RSX/RSX-S rear sway bar is 19mm and it runs about $80 with brackets. The RSX-R/CTR sway bar is 22mm and I am not sure how much that one is. If you don't plan on upgrading the front one, then stick to the 19mm one.
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Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by robbclark1
If you don't plan on upgrading the front one, then stick to the 19mm one.
If you don't plan on upgrading the front one, then stick to the 19mm one.
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Autocross Junky
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Rep Power: 380 I think it was just a precautionary statement. Most of us here, unfortunatly, are not what you can call Highly skilled drivers. Most of us like to think so, but its just not true.
The point im trying to make is that if some kid went out and slapped the RSX-R's rear Anti-rollbar on their car, He/She would have no Idea as to how the car would handle afterwards. He/she wouldnt konw how to deal with a car that will want to Oversteer so much quicker/sooner in a corner. So personnaly I recomed just getting the 19mm bar just because if you're not experianced in performance driving (Through Autocross, track days or a Performance diriving school) You wont know things like "if you're oversteering DO NOT do any thing stupid to make it worse, like Hit the Breaks or lift off of the throttle." they dont teach you those things in drivers ed.
The point im trying to make is that if some kid went out and slapped the RSX-R's rear Anti-rollbar on their car, He/She would have no Idea as to how the car would handle afterwards. He/she wouldnt konw how to deal with a car that will want to Oversteer so much quicker/sooner in a corner. So personnaly I recomed just getting the 19mm bar just because if you're not experianced in performance driving (Through Autocross, track days or a Performance diriving school) You wont know things like "if you're oversteering DO NOT do any thing stupid to make it worse, like Hit the Breaks or lift off of the throttle." they dont teach you those things in drivers ed.
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Rep Power: 380 Strut flex happens every time you hit a bump, take a corner or any other time your car is in motion. I can pretty much Guarentee that you will be able to tell the difference between how your car feels With Vs with out a Front upper Strut bar. any other structural reinforcement is just Icing on the cake so to speak. It can only make things better.
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Rep Power: 0 Nice good info...Is it true that when u get after-market springs like Tein S-Tech...Eibach Sportline.. or any other brand that you need new shocks?? I head u could only use the stock shocks for 1 week after u put in after-market springs or can u jus roll on springs and stock shocks?? I'm soo confused about this..help me out plz.
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Rep Power: 374 ^^^^^Stock struts will last a little bit.
Ok, now heres what I want to know, I plan on getting nuespeed race springs. Later down the road I plan on getting new struts, but hopefully we will have more choices than Konis by then. If I get the Nuespeed race springs, front and rear upper strut bars, would it be too much to get the progress sway bar set? Or should I just get the RSX rear sway bar and leave it at that? Thanks.
Ok, now heres what I want to know, I plan on getting nuespeed race springs. Later down the road I plan on getting new struts, but hopefully we will have more choices than Konis by then. If I get the Nuespeed race springs, front and rear upper strut bars, would it be too much to get the progress sway bar set? Or should I just get the RSX rear sway bar and leave it at that? Thanks.
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Rep Power: 0 hmm... i would def get a good set of coilovers and adjustable struts. but i guess it depends what kinds of spring rates you want to run.
ground control makes great, fairly inexpensive coilovers. and with a set of koni single adjustables that would be killer. ground control lets you pick your own spring rates too.
also... a 25mm front bar seems a bit much. was this recommended to you by someone? i would think the stock front bar is perfect. you want to get your fwd car to rotate the rear more... and a 25mm front swaybar is not gonna help.
ground control makes great, fairly inexpensive coilovers. and with a set of koni single adjustables that would be killer. ground control lets you pick your own spring rates too.
also... a 25mm front bar seems a bit much. was this recommended to you by someone? i would think the stock front bar is perfect. you want to get your fwd car to rotate the rear more... and a 25mm front swaybar is not gonna help.
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Rep Power: 380 ^^^ agreed^^^^
Pick up a set of Koni Yellows, they are good to about 450LB/in so as long as you don't get springs that exceed that then they'd be fine.
for the anti-roll bars, Id get the 22 mm rear bar and if the car oversteers to much then I'd get the 25 mm front bar.
on that clover at 83, you probably entered the corner better, or had different tire pressures (You'd be supprised what an LB or 2 PSI can do for handling), or took a slightly different line.
Pick up a set of Koni Yellows, they are good to about 450LB/in so as long as you don't get springs that exceed that then they'd be fine.
for the anti-roll bars, Id get the 22 mm rear bar and if the car oversteers to much then I'd get the 25 mm front bar.
on that clover at 83, you probably entered the corner better, or had different tire pressures (You'd be supprised what an LB or 2 PSI can do for handling), or took a slightly different line.
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From: TX
Rep Power: 0 Originally posted by Zzyzx
[B
for the anti-roll bars, Id get the 22 mm rear bar and if the car oversteers to much then I'd get the 25 mm front bar.
[/B]
[B
for the anti-roll bars, Id get the 22 mm rear bar and if the car oversteers to much then I'd get the 25 mm front bar.
[/B]
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Autocross Junky
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Rep Power: 380 Every suspenson tuning book I've ever read has said...
Change suspension parts one at a time, that way if you add something that you end up not liking you know what part it was. It also lets you feel what each part is doing, so you can better tune the suspension to your liking.
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