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^^ You'd be supprised how many Road Raceing cars run with out a front anti-roll bar....

Remember, Just because some thing Feels fast doesnt mean it is.

 
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Yes, But have you actually ran them on a road course???

Remember, Just because something feels faster doesn't mean that it is.

I've ran laps where I thought I was going really fast, but ended up being seconds slower then previous laps...

 
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Good luck shane, I've been saying this for months, they all ignore me. At high speeds, our setup is much better. Stable=picking your lines better, not just feeling secure. I still think a 22mm rear would be better though.

 
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These are all the anti-roll bar combos I've ran with over the last 2 years.

25.4mm Front 13mm rear (Stock)
25.4mm Front 19mm rear
Front Disconnected 19mm rear
15.9mm Front 19mm rear
15.9mm front 25.4mm rear (hollow adjustible, has approximatly the same strentgh as a 22mm solid bar)

I've ran them on the street, I've ran them at the cars limits, and By Far the best handling of all of them is the 15.9mm/25.4mm setup.


all I can say now is, Go talk to the guys who actually run road courses, not the open track people, but the actual Wheel to wheel racers. Tell them what you ahve told me, and they will respond exactly how I have.

This would be a good place to start
http://www.honda-tech.com/zeroforum?id=19
and they try here
http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

 
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^They don't have to deal with irregular road surfaces and traffic. I have done road trips with 16/19 and 25/19 setups, and the 25/19 setup is better. 25/22 is what I think would be the best daily-driver handling car. Autocross is asking the car to behave much differently, where your setup makes complete sense.

 
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xK... my opinion:

1. Body roll is significant. Basic physics shows that shifting the weight in the opposite direction of your line of travel would alter the geometry of the suspension. Optimum stability occurs when both drive wheels are transfering equal amounts of torque, i.e. why LSD is used.

2. I would have to agree with you that understeer is the safest state for a car to be in. I can understand your point about oversteer being necessary for taking the turn at the smallest possible angle. You'd be correct that slight oversteer would be ideal in an autocross setting, especially if the driver is familiar with the vehicle and the amount of oversteer it produces. However, I don't use this car on an autocross course. The majority of the turns I make are freeway off-ramps, narrow canyon roads, and the occasional mountain road. In all of those situations the type of set-up I am currently using is ideal. Oversteer would be more difficult/dangerous to correct on a public road. My experience has been that my speed through the roads I drive is faster with my current set-up. Considering I'd much rather not end up rolling down the side of a mountain, I think I'll stick to my current set-up.

Oh, and just outta curiousity... what do you mean "A well handling car is inherently unstable"? I don't mean to flame you, I'm just wondering if you could elaborate more. That statement just seems to be contridictory.

 
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Body roll is an effect of weight transfer it does not cause weight transfer. Even if you had 0 body roll the car would still transfer weight. (goKarts have no suspension and little to no body roll, but they still have weight transfer problems). The only way to reduce the amount of wieght a car transfers durring at turn is to, A. Lower the car. B. Physically remove weight from the car or C. Widen the track of the car. and how does Torque have any thing to do with handling?

You guys dont seem to understand, by createing more understeer, you are in fact hampering the cars ability to turn (Understeer makes a car want to go straight). Because of this, you are reducing the cars menuverablity.

If you want to learn about High performance handling and Veihical Dynamics here are a couple of books I recomend.

(Basics, and easy to read)
High-Performance Handling Handbook

more advanced
How to Make your car Handle

Chassis Engineering

Tune To Win
Some on Driving
Secrets of Solo Racing Drive to Win


Finally there is the ever popular Physics of Racing Series


as far as the comment on a Well handling car is an unstable car.... Think about it, if you are driving a well preped car at the limits of its capibilities then you are in fact on that edge of losing control. I've said it many times, the more you tune a car to the bleeding edge of handling the less forgiving that car will be to your mistakes. An example of this would be a certin 1989 Civic Si that I have had the privlige of driving... This car is amazing in the corners, and will do things my car cant even dream about. however it is VERY touchy, and there are several things that as a driver you just should not do. and I have spun the car Many times simply because I braked to late, or I lifted off the gas at the wrong time. But when you drive this car perfectly, You can carry an amazing amount of speed through the turns. (and yes it has the stock Front anti-roll bar (16mm) and a 24mm Rear antiroll bar)

 
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got my rsx sway bar installed!!!

 
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Zzyzx, thanks for the links. Info is always appreciated.

 
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With the 15.9/19 combo I could take a particular off ramp that I drive every day at about 80 mph with the back end on the verge of coming loose (lots of tire noise, abrubt transitions into excessive oversteer that required countersteering correction, etc.) With the 25.4/19 I can go around it at 90 + and all four tires feel like they have loads of traction available.

On an interstate off ramp I want all four tires to have similar levels of traction and at the extreme limit I want the front end to push before the rear end comes around.

Also, it is my understanding that neutral is the prefered setup for proper handling, not overstear or understear. I don't claim that my car is neutral just that it is closer to neutral than with the 15.9 up front.

 
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if i install a sway bar do i need the bushings from the car it came off of, or some kind of aftermarket bushings?

 
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My sway bar specs chart from my DX-R site:
http://www.sceniccityonline.com/arti...ybarspecs.html

 
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you need the correct size bushings for that bar, whether OEM or aftermarket.

 
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one last question. i heard that a front sway bar wont fit on an 01 EX b/c of the position of the cat. but u guys said that u can have it, so i am not sure anymore =P

 
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From what leetz says, a RSX/Si bar will fit on a LX (and probably DX), but not a EX. Their bars are smaller anyway. What size bar do you want?

 
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15.9mm front, the front of an EX has a sway bar already, so does that mean i can change it?

 
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What do you want to change it to? You have to give me more info here....

 
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i want to change the front sway bar on my 2001 EX, from stock to 15.9mm

 
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To what bar?? What size? Is it made for the EM/ES chassis? If it is for the EM/ES chassis, then it should fit no problem. If it is for the EP/DC chassis, it probably won't fit.

 
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as long as the 15.9mm bar you get comes off of a 2003+ EX it will fit fine.

 
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YAY thanks guys

 
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2 questions:

For a completely stock 2004 ex, what sized rear sway bar would enforce "neutral" handleing?

How does imbalancing the front to rear tire pressures affect the cars tendancy to understear or overstear? (I keep the front tires 2-3 psi higher than the rears because I am bothered that the cars 60/40 weight distribution still calls for uniform pressures)

 
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Most of the information you want is in the Suspension Tuning 101 in my sig. Here is Mike Kojima's page. It tells you how to change things
http://www.sentra.net/tech/garage/su...79ab28655206fe

I think the stock front sway with a 19mm rear sway will give more of a neutral feel. You might step it up to a 22mm, but you might get some oversteer.

 
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^Good info^
So according to them I have taken a small step already to reduce understear.

I did a few really basic calculations which may not really apply but let me know what you think.

2500lb civic 60/40 weight split
1500lb on the front/1000lb on the back

under stock psi the rear tires only have 2/3 the load of the fronts (with reguards to what the air supports)

If the front tires are inflated to 36psi, and the rears deflated to 24psi, the relative stress (again with reguards to air support in the tire) the front and rear tires are under should be equal. In other words, the front tires normally squish more than the rears when the car sits. with the new pressures, the tire deflections would be equal. (*a side note, wouldn't this also help equalize the wear patterns from front to back?)

36+36+24+24=30*4 also, so the total load the car can carry should be unaffected yes?

but is 24psi too low? actually it doesn't seem like it should be...
at 24 psi, the rear tires are actually subjected to 5/6th the weight per psi, if you will, that the fronts at 30psi would be.

are there other factors that come into play when the pressurs vary so much?

how much might the stock suspension be already tuned to compensate for unequal pressure loadings?

why did i feel the need to use the phrase "if you will"?

lol, anyway tell me what you think. I'm gonna try this when I go home from college on sunday and see how it feels for a week or so (more if its cool)

 
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Your reading in to tire preasures too much.....Tire PSI is more for fine tuing, and Ultimatly a Tire Pyromiter would tell you precicely the best PSI for handling. (by measuring the temp accrost the tread you can tell if the tire is overinflated or underinflated) Typically on the street I run the fronts at 34 ish, and the rears at 30. Droping the rears to 24 isnt really a good Idea in my opinion.. (what happens when you load junk in your trunk?)

 
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I also agree that anything below 30 is low. You don't want to go cruising around with tires below 30. That is just stupid and dangerous. If you are racing then you overinflate the front. I usually run around 42 front 40 rear. But that is ONLY when racing. And again, tire pressures aren't going to make that huge of a difference. You should be looking into sway bars, spring rates, and such.

PS if you want an evenly distributed weight, you buy coilovers and have them corner balanced.

 
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wow, someone who actually knows something about suspension. i am impressed. i didnt think anyone else really knew what corner weighting is. awesome.

 
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Yeah, I know I way over analized/over symplified it. I was just what-if'ing

though if under 30 psi is gonna be unsafe, well screw that. I'll just live with understeer till I get time/money (college ) to get a slightly larger rear sway bar.

Would anyone be kind enough to link the lazy man to some suitable sway bars?

Thanks for the replies btw.

 
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oh and I forgot,
how noticable are the addition of strut tower braces to these cars?
I put one on the front towers of my old Z34 and it made it feel a bit more stable and the nose didn't dive so much during braking. but maybe new civics are already stiff enough?

 
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THe RSX 19mm rear bar is a good place to start.... The depending on what you are doing with the car, you may want to get an 03+ front bar and/or increase the size of the rear bar. or if its just for the street, then you may want the 01-02 25.4mm front bar and either a 19 or 22mm rear... I dont really recomend going with a larger front bar.

for the Strut tower bar, it has an effect, but its more about feel, as the cars handling will pretty much remain the same.