Strut bar questions
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Strut bar questions
Hi,
So I just went through the Suspension 101 post, and have a couple of quick questions:
(1) From what i understood, strut bar is also called tie-bar, and is located on top of the strut towers. If that's the case, how can you have a lower tie-bar? (http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=4) Isn't that the front sway bar? Or is there a separate component beside the sway bar that enforces chasis regidity?
(2) I also read here (http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=2) that
low spring rate + large diameter bars = good
low spring rate + small diameter bars = bad
high spring rate + large diameter bars = bad
high spring rate + small diameter bars = good
In our case with the 7thgencivic, specifically my EX (or SI in Canada), do we have a high spring rate?? Basically, if I take off my rear-sway bar and put on a standard RSX sway bar (19mm), would I lose control on highway when steering around potholes?? What about a type-s sway bar (22mm, i believe)? This is of course without me doing anything else. Just sway bar.
(3) Is it recommended that I upgrade the front sway bar as well to something bigger if I change the rear?
(4) Does anyone make actual strut replacements for our cars yet?? Or are we still looking at modifying stock struts with some inserts??
Thank you!
So I just went through the Suspension 101 post, and have a couple of quick questions:
(1) From what i understood, strut bar is also called tie-bar, and is located on top of the strut towers. If that's the case, how can you have a lower tie-bar? (http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=4) Isn't that the front sway bar? Or is there a separate component beside the sway bar that enforces chasis regidity?
(2) I also read here (http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/sh...5&pagenumber=2) that
low spring rate + large diameter bars = good
low spring rate + small diameter bars = bad
high spring rate + large diameter bars = bad
high spring rate + small diameter bars = good
In our case with the 7thgencivic, specifically my EX (or SI in Canada), do we have a high spring rate?? Basically, if I take off my rear-sway bar and put on a standard RSX sway bar (19mm), would I lose control on highway when steering around potholes?? What about a type-s sway bar (22mm, i believe)? This is of course without me doing anything else. Just sway bar.
(3) Is it recommended that I upgrade the front sway bar as well to something bigger if I change the rear?
(4) Does anyone make actual strut replacements for our cars yet?? Or are we still looking at modifying stock struts with some inserts??
Thank you!
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1) a tie bar just "ties" together two parts of the chassis. Strut bars actually sit on the strut housings. There are tie bars that go in the trunk that don't attach to the top of the strut. It is kind of a difficult issue and i think most people get wrapped up in terminology. All strut bars are tie bars, but not all tie bars are strut bars. A strut bar is just a sub-category of tie bars.
2) The civic itself does not have high spring rates. I have yet to see what stock rates are.
no a 19mm would be fine. a 22mm might be a little too much. What year is your civic? if it is 01-02 you have a 25.4mm front sway, if it is 03+ then you have 15.6mm front sway. You will have more oversteer by upgrading if you have an 03+.
3) No. Upgrading the front is not necessary. most people who race don't recommend it. If you are doing it for non racing purposes then you can upgrade the front sway. The front sway normally will make the car have less roll, but will make the car more neutral or even understeer.
4) No, full shocks yet. Just konis. I think Moutons are full replacements, but they are very very expensive. But i am not sure. KYB makes GR-2's but they are not for performance or lowering.
2) The civic itself does not have high spring rates. I have yet to see what stock rates are.
no a 19mm would be fine. a 22mm might be a little too much. What year is your civic? if it is 01-02 you have a 25.4mm front sway, if it is 03+ then you have 15.6mm front sway. You will have more oversteer by upgrading if you have an 03+.
3) No. Upgrading the front is not necessary. most people who race don't recommend it. If you are doing it for non racing purposes then you can upgrade the front sway. The front sway normally will make the car have less roll, but will make the car more neutral or even understeer.
4) No, full shocks yet. Just konis. I think Moutons are full replacements, but they are very very expensive. But i am not sure. KYB makes GR-2's but they are not for performance or lowering.
Autocross Junky
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1. Strut bars and Tie bars are one and the same, the different names is only becasue of the type of suspension each is used with. (Strut bars are used with strut type suspension, Tie bars are use with non-strut type suspension) 1A. Our cars have a strut type suspension on the front only. and since the strut replaces the upper control arm we can specify that the upper bar is the only "Strut bar" so the lower bar on the front attaches to the lower control arm mount rather then attaching to the strut, hence it being a Tie bar rather then a Strut bar. (It doesnt really matter much what you call them, they still do the same job)
2.
low spring rate + large diameter bars = good
low spring rate + small diameter bars = bad
high spring rate + large diameter bars = bad
high spring rate + small diameter bars = good
this depends entirly on your application. and as I recall was given as a rule of thumb for street cars. Idealy, the way you would choose your springs and anti-roll bars is this. Tune with springs first, You want a spring that is hard enough to help reduce body roll (and thus reducing camber change) yet soft enough to keep the tires on the ground when going over bumps. What this means is that the spring rate you should be running is entirly dependant on how rough the surfaces you drive on are. once you have coosen the right spring rates then you would Tune with anti-roll bars in order to get the handling balance you want. so the rate of the springs and the size of the antiroll bar is truly dependant on the intedned aplication. In real life doing such a thing is pretty tough and possibly expensive.
3. Depends on how you want the car to handle (intended aplication)
4.Tokico Illuminas are suppose to be coming out later this month, but Koni Yellows are out right now.
1. Strut bars and Tie bars are one and the same, the different names is only becasue of the type of suspension each is used with. (Strut bars are used with strut type suspension, Tie bars are use with non-strut type suspension) 1A. Our cars have a strut type suspension on the front only. and since the strut replaces the upper control arm we can specify that the upper bar is the only "Strut bar" so the lower bar on the front attaches to the lower control arm mount rather then attaching to the strut, hence it being a Tie bar rather then a Strut bar. (It doesnt really matter much what you call them, they still do the same job)
2.
low spring rate + large diameter bars = good
low spring rate + small diameter bars = bad
high spring rate + large diameter bars = bad
high spring rate + small diameter bars = good
this depends entirly on your application. and as I recall was given as a rule of thumb for street cars. Idealy, the way you would choose your springs and anti-roll bars is this. Tune with springs first, You want a spring that is hard enough to help reduce body roll (and thus reducing camber change) yet soft enough to keep the tires on the ground when going over bumps. What this means is that the spring rate you should be running is entirly dependant on how rough the surfaces you drive on are. once you have coosen the right spring rates then you would Tune with anti-roll bars in order to get the handling balance you want. so the rate of the springs and the size of the antiroll bar is truly dependant on the intedned aplication. In real life doing such a thing is pretty tough and possibly expensive.
3. Depends on how you want the car to handle (intended aplication)
4.Tokico Illuminas are suppose to be coming out later this month, but Koni Yellows are out right now.
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Does anyone make actual strut replacements for our cars yet?? Or are we still looking at modifying stock struts with some inserts??
"Quote, originally posted by Todd00 »
Anyhow, any chance of designing an EP3 shock that doesn't require you to hack up the front oem strut? I think (know) that's the reason you don't sell more for the EP3. And right now, there are zero shock replacements for that car on the market. It would be a goldmine IMO."
--------
I would LOVE to be able to have a complete strut housing for the EP3 but I don't see any way it can be done logistically within a price range that people could pay for. We will always make a full strut housing when we can make it viable and will only go for an insert when a housing is not an option. Not that inserts are bad, just not the first preference. Don't for a moment think I haven't tried a number of different ways to do this over the last 18+ months, I just haven't found a way to get over the huge financial obstacles. The steering arm, spring perch, and bracketry are so extremely expensive to make tooling for and produce in the acceptable market volumes that the purhcase price and the manufacturing risk would be very high. Your comment that there are "zero" replacements is proof that this is a tough nut to crack, no wonder no one else offers them. KONI can offer the cut-a-strut insert application because we have the patented system that no one else has and it allows us to offer performance dampers for these cars, MR2 Spyders, PT Cruisers, etc., etc. that no other company can at this time. There are a few companies that offer threaded coil-over kits at a high price but they have eliminated the spring perch stamping from the equation and it still costs a lot. I would in a heartbeat make a complete strut and am still trying to find a way but until that point, the cut-a-strut insert is the only game in town other than stock dampers. Goldmine it might be, nightmare it has been so far.
I have been a hardcore Honda guy for more than a decade but I have to admit that the '00+ Civic/'01+ RSX suspension is the worst design that is on the market from a damper point of view, just a major disappointment. The front has issues and the rear really does too that people don't know about. Most people don't know it but Honda has made several running changes along the way to deal with problems too, they are just too tight lipped to acknowledge it. The car was important to KONI to get an application for so we have dealt with a number of issues to make this happen.
Anyhow, any chance of designing an EP3 shock that doesn't require you to hack up the front oem strut? I think (know) that's the reason you don't sell more for the EP3. And right now, there are zero shock replacements for that car on the market. It would be a goldmine IMO."
--------
I would LOVE to be able to have a complete strut housing for the EP3 but I don't see any way it can be done logistically within a price range that people could pay for. We will always make a full strut housing when we can make it viable and will only go for an insert when a housing is not an option. Not that inserts are bad, just not the first preference. Don't for a moment think I haven't tried a number of different ways to do this over the last 18+ months, I just haven't found a way to get over the huge financial obstacles. The steering arm, spring perch, and bracketry are so extremely expensive to make tooling for and produce in the acceptable market volumes that the purhcase price and the manufacturing risk would be very high. Your comment that there are "zero" replacements is proof that this is a tough nut to crack, no wonder no one else offers them. KONI can offer the cut-a-strut insert application because we have the patented system that no one else has and it allows us to offer performance dampers for these cars, MR2 Spyders, PT Cruisers, etc., etc. that no other company can at this time. There are a few companies that offer threaded coil-over kits at a high price but they have eliminated the spring perch stamping from the equation and it still costs a lot. I would in a heartbeat make a complete strut and am still trying to find a way but until that point, the cut-a-strut insert is the only game in town other than stock dampers. Goldmine it might be, nightmare it has been so far.
I have been a hardcore Honda guy for more than a decade but I have to admit that the '00+ Civic/'01+ RSX suspension is the worst design that is on the market from a damper point of view, just a major disappointment. The front has issues and the rear really does too that people don't know about. Most people don't know it but Honda has made several running changes along the way to deal with problems too, they are just too tight lipped to acknowledge it. The car was important to KONI to get an application for so we have dealt with a number of issues to make this happen.
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