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yes, though currently only the compression dampinig (Just like every one else)

they may possible bring out the type III that has both compression and rebound dampining adjustment.

 
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Zzyzx: i'm looking to get the kw's, and they say that each set of coilovers is custom built.

i want something that will be sweet for solo, but will also be decent for daily driving (I drive 92km's per day).

can you recommend a spring rate? I'm not too sure about what spring rates are good for what. or, could you point me in the right direction to learn about it?

I have a sedan, btw. this should affect the spring height in the rear, non?

 
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So how does it ride. Is it comfortable bouncy or what. Is it good enough for daily driving and does it seem to bottom out with people in the back seat or what. I am having that problem now with my Ground Control and Konis. When I have people in the back it bounces too much.

 
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This is something robbclark1 and I were discussing earlier in the month. So hopefully he'll pop in and make sure I don't forget any thing.

Spring rates are an interesting problem. Mostly because there are several things that you have to think about when deciding what spring rates to use. In a performance application Springs only do three things, the control how much the chassis of the car rolls (body roll), Keep the tires on the ground while incountering bumps (A tire in the air can make no traction) and they control where weight is transfered to (Front or back) durrig a turn. If the car is to be daily driven you must add a fourth job to the springs, Comfort. Of the three performance jobs, controling where weight is transfered to is the most important.

So starting with the most important job, Controling weight, I'll try and explain my understanding of what effects spring rates have on handling.

1. Controling weight
the simpilest explination of this it, the side of the car, Font or rear, that has the Higher spring rate (Or roll resistance) will have more weight appied to it durring a turn. so how does this affect handling? It all relates to how a tire makes traction. Simply put, the ammount of traction a tire makes is directly linked to how much weight is applied to that tire. I.E. the more weight a tire has on it, the more traction it will make. so it can be assumed that the side of the car with the higher spring rate will make more traction in a turn then the other side. there is a Flaw to this assumtion though, The flaw is that although a tire makes more traction as more weight is applied, the function is not linier. Its more like a parabola, where as more weight is applied, less traction is made. this means that a tire will eventally "Saturate" or nolonger be able to make enough traction to hold the weigh applied to it, and it starts to slide. this is primarily how we can control oversteer and understeer, by adjusting the roll resistance (By changing spring rates) on the front and rear of the car.

2. Controling Body Roll
Body roll in its self is not nessisaily a bad thing. Camber change caused by body roll is. Now camber change can be tuned out by adjusting the static camber of the car. I know of many Autocrossers that run -2 degrees or more camber on their cars. now this is great for Low to mid speed Hard cornering (Autocross) it is not so good on a track(Probably to much camber) or the street (premature tire wear). ultimatly static camber (form a performance view) will be set by checking tire temps with a pyromiter. That way you can customize your camber settings to your driving. Camber change can also be controled by increacing the spring rates. But you probably only want to do this a little bit, as increaced spring rates may have other adverse implimantations due to road conditions (Thats next).

3. Keepin the tires stuck to the ground
As I said before, a tire in the air can make no traction. Simple. what this means is that although you want higher spring rates for controling weight and body roll, you can however have a to high of a spring rate for the surfaces you drive on. So the surfaces you race or drive on will have a great impact on what spring rates you can ultimatly run, the rougher the surface, the softer the springs. this is why race cars can run such high spring rates, because the tracks are much smoother then the roads we drive on.

4. Comfort
for a street driven car you have to consider some level of comfort right? This is where personal prefrence come in to play. onece a gain , softer springs = softer ride.


Now we can apply this to the suspensions that we know the spring rates on and have at least an Idea as to how it probably will handle.

here are the spring rates of some of the suspeinsions that are availble to our cars.

Tein:
Super Street (EM2/ES1) 336F/448R
Flex (EP3) 448f/559R
Flex (DC5) 448F/559R

Jic:
FLTA2 (DC5) 450F/506R
FLTA2 (EP3) 450F/506R

KW:
Type II (DC5,EP3) 350F/500R

so with these # we can get some Idea as to how each set up will perform.

Well start by finding the Total spring rates of each setup, this will give us an Idea as to haw "harsh" the ride will be from each set up, aswell as how much body roll to expect from each setup (vaguely ). (#4 Comfort, #2 Body roll and #3 Tires stuck to ground)

Tein:
SS (EM2/ES1) 784
Flex (EP3/DC5) 1007
Jic:
FLTA2 (DC5/EP3) 956
KW
Type II (DC5/EP3) 850

Conclusion: it appears to me that the SS will give you the niceset ride comfort wise while the Flex will be the roughest. as far as body roll, the opposite occurs, flex will have the least while the ss will have the most.

now we'll look at % of spring rates front to rear, this will give us an Idea as to how each setup will handle (which ones will reduce understeer the most, possibly to the point of oversteer)

(percentages are approximate)
Tein:
SS (EM2/ES1) 42.85%F/57.14%R
Flex (EP3/DC5) 44.48%F/55.51%R
Jic:
FLTA2 (DC5/EP3) 47.07%F/52.95%R
KW
Type II (DC5/EP3) 41.17%F/58.82%R

Conclusion: by looking at the Spring rate percenatges, you can get a look at which one will Mostlikely reduce understeer the most (the Higher the % rear = more weigh transfered to the back durring a turn = less understeer) By the Numbers it appears that the KW's will reduce understeer the most, then the SS, Flex, and last JIC. So dosn't this mean that the KW's and Tein SS will handle better then both the Flex and Jic setups????!!!!! Possibly, but more then likly not. THe reason they Probably will not handle as well as the Jic or Flex setups deals with what we talked about earlier. BODY ROLL/Camber Change!!

By the Numbers

Tein SS
22.14% weaker then Tein Flex
17.99% weaker then Jic FLTA2
7.76% weaker then KW Type II

KW Type II
15.59% weaker then Tein Flex
11.08% weaker the Jic FLTA2

Jic FLTA2
5.06% weaker then Tein Flex

so what this shows is that although both the Tein SS and the KW Type II have the largest % of spring rates on the rear, they also have the weakest spring rates overall. this in turn means more body roll in total, and thus more camber change which equals less total traction.


Finally the end:

I would say this about the different set ups
1. the Tein SS will give you the most comfortable ride with vastly improved handling over stock.
2. KW's Type II will handle better then the SS's and possibly handle as well as the Jics or Flex setups due to its High Rear % spring rate. This set up may prove to be the best autocross setup currently, and if tied to the right set of Anti-Rollbars(To get the overall roll resistance up) may prove to be better then the Jic and Flex setups. Also if KW does put out the Type III dampiner for our cars that may put it well over the top. (Having adjustible camber would help too. Hit hint )
3. both the Jic FLTA2 and Teins Flex dampiners will perform well, however I feel that the Flex system will do better at autocross where the FLTA2 might be better for track days.


there are other things that may sway people to one suspension vs another like Camber plates or Rebound/compression adjustment.


In the end, we really will not know which is really better, untill some one goes out and tests each setup, but by just the #'s we can get a peak in to how each one might handle.

thats it, Im done.

 
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You can always go custom rates. But again, like zzyzx said, you won't know how it will perform unless you swap out different rated springs. And that takes money. If we all get different spring rates then we can figure out which one is best?!?! haha
Other things to look at would be composite of the metal. Now KW claims their Stainless Steel won't corrode like other coilovers.
I think you did a great job explaining it for everyone zzyzx. If i think of anything i will let you know.
I will probably be going with the KW Variant 3's when they come out. NOt sure about camber plates or pillowballs yet.

 
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holy ****.

*jaw drops*

this is PERFECT! thanks zzyzx! this is excellent information!

I think I'll use this info to come up with a spring rate that mixes both understeer reduction and ride comfort.

I want to be more comfortable than the flex (a little), but reduce the understeer as much as possible.

I'll let you know what I come up with, and I'll see if you guys approve
Edit: (I'm thinkin 400F/525R)

thanks again!

you guys rock!

 
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Shiznet - does anyone have a base line measurement from the bottom of the threads to the spring perch for about 1.5 inches below stock height?? I am trying to slowly put my new KW's together, and got old struts apart. Also, what sort of grease did you use for the bearing? I used white lithium grease, is that OK?

I need some more info as to where to set the spring perches to, or is it just a trial and error thing???

HELP PLEASE!

 
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try it 1.5" from the lowest thread of the coilover. do it to the front and rear coilover. thats what ocealaris did to his; or else, trial and error. give some updates.

 
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KW's = installed. They kick @ss, the ride is smooth, and not bouncy. I had a little difficulty setting the height, but that's becaused I'm inexperienced with installing coilovers (front = about 2" measured from the bottom of the threads to the bottom of the adjusting ring, rears are about 1" from the bottom of the threads to the bottom of the adjusting ring). The settings I just gave give me about a 2.5 finger gap at each wheel. The only other problem I am having right now is the car needs an alignment BAD. The front struts have a wider bolt hole in the top than the bottom, so my camber is all fscked up in front - the steering wheel is almost at 45 degrees to the right to go straight. Plus, when I corner right I feel a thump from the front left. I think its because the alignment is off all around (front and back). I also installed energy suspension bushings in the front control arms at the same time (easy to get in - just had a shop press them in for me). Overall, I won't be able to give a real review until I get this alignment crap straightened out.......Anyone know of a good alignment shop in Houston that's open on Saturday?

 
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congratulations!!! interested to see some pics on how it will look like on EM2.

 
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I am wondering why is it that the hole for the upper bolt (circled in red) is slightly elongated compared to the one below. does this mean that we can adjust the front camber? does tein ss have this too?

 
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Ur still in Houston. Well try going to NTB or Discount Tire. There open. Where u at exactly so I can help u out.

 
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Update -

I just got back from Discount tire - Yokohama AVS ES100's = installed! Car = aligned (via NTB). They did a good job with the alignment, since it was off all around. The only problem I am having now is there is a slight shimmy in the steering wheel at high speed (55+ MPH) - my guess is there is something wrong with the tires? One of my rims if bent tho I'm going to have to call the place I bought them and have them send me a NEW one - it was probably UPS. Hate UPS.....

Anyhow, it handles so much better with the complete suspension redone....This morning before I took it in I lowered it some more, not much, but it looks better.....

What fun....

Yeah, I'm still here - until Sept sometime. If you want to hookup just PM me or something....the R1 Racing GTR-6's look BAD *** on my ride (same look as the Volk GT-P's).

 
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The shimmy is that the tires aren't completely balanced. Get them done again and tell them they didn't do it right.

 
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I'll take some photo's tomorrow and see if I can post them (do I need a host or can I post directly to the forum?).

The camber was off pretty bad in the front, due to the slotted hole that KW uses in the top - but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Since they give you more room to play with, camber can be tweeked until its correct. I also installed a camber kit in front and rear (SPC) when I put the poly bushings in.

Just remembered, I had three additonal problems when I installed the KW's besides what was listed above (minor things).

1. One of the coilovers had a tight fit in the front steering knuckle, I had to use a hammer to get it in.

2. Once installed, the two rear damping adjusters were hard to get to and set (due to the proximity of the adjusters to the body). I just turned them by hand, since the tool that came with the kit didn't fit. No big deal.

3. Last thing I remember was that the brake line holders for the front were bent awefully close to the strut body - you might have to cut the stock bolts down for them to fit properly (if you bend the tabs out, they might break off - I suggest cutting the bolts).

Other than that - just seemed like a typical install for me (being my first time). I readjusted the height again this morning (as stated before). For some reason, my car seemed to sit lower on the left (drivers) side when the stock struts were in, this is still the case with my coilovers. I compensated with the coilovers, so my adjustments are not equal all around, but the car sits even now.

NTB did an amazing job fixing the alignment (only $59 for 4 wheel computer alignment!), however, it still pulls a little to the left, will probably go back and have them fix it later this week. One thing that gets me (don't know how similar the accord and civic are), is that looking at the alignment printout they used the specs for a 1999-2002 ACCORD! Not CIVIC! Like I said, I'm not sure if there are any differences - I tried looking at my Helm manual, but it really wasn't too much help (it listed the alignment specs, but some of the readings were in inches, where the printout was completely in degrees).


Oh yeah, one last thing - HAVE A 17mm box wrench when you do the install - transferring parts from the stock struts to the new ones are a BITCH without one. Other than that - no creaking, popping, clanging, or other noises WHAT SO EVER. Turns without issue. Not to rag on B+G, but I'm glad that I went to KW's....

Robclark - yeah, probably go back to discount and have them do it since they are supposed to do it for the life of the tire anyhow.....

 
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What kind of suspension setup did u have before? Hey Im not doing nothing later on today so maybe we could me up. I would really like to know if it rides better than my Ground Control and Konis. I have been wanting to go full coilover but havent rode on them yet except for Teins which were pretty nice.

 
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Where in Houston are you located at? I'm in Pasadena, specifically just east of the beltway 8 and faremont. I might try and redo some wiring under the hood today, but let me know whats up. Might also try and see if I can have my tires rebalanced.

 
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Sent u a PM.

 
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sitting low on the left: yup, i have that as well with springs.

it's actually because the stock springs are taller on the left side stockwise.

reason: there is always someone sitting on the left side of the car, so with one person in it, it sits almost level, instead of leaning to the lecft. honda is smart

dangit, i need my coilovers!

i sent money to a "friend" to get me coilovers...he hasn't sent me the coilovers OR my money...I sent him the money in april

he stole the money (bastard). gotta take his *** to small claims court now. some friend.

 
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Damn I just read that whole thread from the 1st post....

I'm interested in these KW's I will wait to see more opinions, and reviews.

 
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what year do you have? if you have an 03 civic, you may have problem inserting the bolts that goes to the struts to the knuckle. just an FYI. haven't installed mine yet...i bought the 01-02 bolts maybe it will fit on the holes on the knuckle. my fear would be, if i install the 01-02 bolt, which is 14mm in dia., compared to the 03 bolt, which is 16mm dia., maybe it will damage my struts because it will move around when i get into bumps or humps. also, it may fk-up my camber alignment anytime i hit these bumps. my best bet would be to make the holes larger by grinding it. haven't done it yet, but going to do it as soon as i get my camber kit. good luck in your purchase. KW's are good coilovers. you get rebound adjustability, stainless steel construction, and a reputable name.. FYI.

 
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you know, I was thinking about the 14mm vs. 16mm issue, with my camber kit, the top bolt moves around if I don't have it clamped down tight enough, same for the bottom, I think the pressure of locking the bolts down does most of the work. Just some thoughts

 
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i will try to put some rubber grommets or o-rings and insert it in the lower hole of the knuckle. i already got the 14mm bolts and they fit well on my coilover. i'm going to fill that hole with a rubber grommet or some o-rings just to get rid of the space inside the it and just tighten the bolt up so that it wont move around. i hope this is a good idea. i will see if it works. how's ur coilover? i'm sure it's great to ride with those coilover as i'm dying to install mine and feel the performance.

 
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Yeah man, they're great so far, just wish I had done that shower stall liner trick before I had put mine in, they bind up every once in a while and "boing" but not enough to make me want to remove my suspension...

I wonder if you could just get like rubber tubing, or like that vinyl tubing for aquariums and some good grease to fill in... Or you could always grind up the KWs a tad, That's what we had to do for the B+Gs and/or every other coilover for the EP3 because of the different bolt/hole size... Glad you got some good bolts, I'm headin upto that store I was telling you about that has every kind of bolt imagienable, was gonna see what they had around... Anyways, lemme know how it goes, or what you decide, Germantown's not that far from Rockville, maybe we could meetup and compare sometime, though last time Iwent it got busted up pretty quick...

 
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do you have some grinding tools with you? maybe you can help me grind that hole a little larger?

 
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eh... I have a dremel and some bits, and I've shaved/cut up some like computer case cheap alloy before, but not sure about the KWs... I once mistakenly lent my old dremel to some rock workers, who were trying to slice a piece of granite... holy smoking dremels batman, probably best to find someone with a air grinder, maybe some mechanic shop?

 
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hehe, i'll also going to check some mechanic shop here in rockville maybe they could grind it for me.

 
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KW=installed!!! used the 01-02 14mm bolt flange and 14mm spc front camber bolt. i also used the 01 upper mounts and bearings. everything fits perfectly. my alignment is really f*cked up. i'll bring my car into an alignment shop next weekend. but there is just one little problem, i can hear squeaks/pissssst sound in my rear passenger side. dunno if thats normal like the gas compressing. i will take a look at that tommorow.

 
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Did you fully compress, and fully extend the shocks/dampers at least 9 times before you installed them? you're supposed to do that to release any air that has entered the system during shipping. I didn't know I had to do that, and Glen said it would work itself out, and at least in my case, it has gone away. I kinda liked the noise though Glad to hear everything worked out, I know you'll love the ride as soon as it gets aligned.

 
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no i did not fully compress it 9 times. i don't have the equipment to do it. do you have that sqeaking sound in your rear suspension? what did you do to resolve it?