xanaducivic

So, my daughter came to visit for Thanksgiving driving her 2001 Civic with almost 160K. It was running without problems. Next morning (cold, in the low 30's) it would crank but not start. I have read the forums and tried (almost) everything I can think of. Before I have it taken to the mechanic I would like to see if anyone has any other suggestions.
I have established that:
1. the fuel pump runs - can hear the buzz and smell the gas (after repeated crankings)
2. the plugs are wet (with gas)
3. there is spark - but weak. Interestingly, when I pulled the first plug and tested it I got a very strong, white spark. But when I checked the others they were weak and when I went back to the beginning it had become weak. I checked for spark by putting the plug in the ignition coil and clamping the jumper cables to the coil and the plug and the other ends of the cables to ground.
4. the injectors are energized. I used noid lights to check them.
5. the timing belt is not broken (the valves move when cranking).
6. the coolant and oil levels are correct.
7. (using the OBD2) the coolant and air intake sensors are reading correctly
8. the CEL is not lit and no codes have been set.


I have done the following:
a) tried spraying carb cleaner in the throttle body.
b) tried spraying starting fluid in the throttle body (engine does not run)
c) cleaned the ground terminals (2 near the thermostat housing on the engine, one on the body above the radiator, ground bolt under fuse box, bolt on the bracket going to the transmission and a group of wires behind the bumper on the passenger side).
d) I have checked and cleaned the ignition fuse (#1) under the dash.

This is very frustrating since in all my years messing with cars this will be the first time I will have had to resort to a mechanic because of no start.

Is it possible the timing belt could have slipped a notch. If so, how can I easily check? Otherwise, I am inclined towards an electrical (ground) issue.

Thank you for any suggestions.

Wankenstein

To check mechanical timing:
1) Remove all spark plugs..makes it easier to rotate engine manually
2) Set #1 cylinder (closest to crank pulley) to TDC
3) Remove valve cover. Notches in cam gear should be parallel to top of cylinder head.
"UP" mark on cam gear should be at or close to 12 o'clock position..though the "UP" mark is not considered a timing reference.
4) Crank pulley's last (counter clockwise rotation)/most seperated timing mark should be aligned via site marks on lower timing cover

Wankenstein

If you don't already know..rotate engine in counter-clockwise direction only as these are interference engines.

When you pull the spark plugs to check timing see if they are wet with fuel.
If you have a compressor blow air into the cylinders at BDC to rule out a fuel flooding situation. Also, if timing is good then try cranking with gas pedal to floor..this shuts off the injectors (possible flooding issue) and allows maximum air into cylinders.

The following is a possibility too: http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/hon...crank-sensor-1

ezone

Sounds flooded.

Was the cold engine started, car moved around in the driveway to let someone out, then shut off....now it won't start again?

Instead of the usual RuhRuhRuhRuhRuh sound during cranking........It probably cranks weakly, like weeeweeeweeeweeeweeeweee ??
(flooded and lost compression)

This.


Also if compression has been lost due to washing down with fuel, you might need to pull the plugs to dry them, and dry the cylinders out as stated, and maybe even dump a tablespooon of fresh engine oil into each cylinder to help restore the rings sealing ability and gain some compression again. (after dumping oil in, crank engine over several times with plugs OUT before reassembling plugs and coils)

Even after this, it can still take lots of cranking and judicious feathering of the gas pedal to get it to run on its own again.
In the future, don't shut off a cold engine, run it until it's reached operating temperature.


What do you consider weak?
Find your mother in law, ask her to hold on to the business end of the coil while you crank the engine over.....You'll know if it's a weak coil in just a few seconds

Wankenstein

Good tip. Will store in my melon-head processor.

Lol

Might put her in Atrial Fibrillation but at least he'll know ignition has good spark..lol.

xanaducivic

Thank you megalodong and ezone. Ezone, I particularly like what you said. It is exactly what I did - move the car when cold and shut off the engine. I guess I could do a quick compression test to confirm.

xanaducivic

I just checked the compression with all plugs pulled and throttle open. I got 150 psi on all cylinders. I would say that looks good. Could it still be flooded?

xanaducivic

I blew out the cylinders with compressed air (though I forget to set each to BDC). I figure that with all the cranking to do the compression test (plugs out, throttle open) the cylinders should be well dried out. Put everything back, tried to start, same result (occasionally it will give an indication of firing briefly, but it is not consistent).

I removed valve cover and timing belt top cover. The marks seem to line up perfectly as per your diagrams.

Any other suggestions are welcome. Thank you.

ezone

No If it's not now, it will be


Reassemble your timing belt cover and valve cover.

Put a battery charger on it--- to keep the cranking speed up
Hold the gas pedal all the way to the floor and do not let it up (pull floormats out from under the pedal too)
Crank it for a maximum of 15 seconds at a time, then allow at least a full minute to let the starter cool off.
Repeat until it gains some compression and tries to run on at least 2 cylinders....Once it starts firing consistently then you can let off the starter and work the gas pedal to see if it will run on its own......






No, that's not sufficient.

You may need to feed it some oil as I described earlier to help restore some ring sealing (compression).


And then be prepared for a lot of cranking and a lot of working the gas pedal to disable or enable fuel when it tries to fire.
And it will smoke.

xanaducivic

Thank you Ezone. I appreciate your encouragement. This will be a job for tomorrow morning. How long should I repeat this before calling it quits?
If 150 psi is not good, what is?

ezone

I expect to see 180-200+ PSI when I do it with my own gauge.


Have you tried screwing in a new set of plugs yet? The plugs that got wet are probably sooty, that soot gives sparks a path away from the important gap.

xanaducivic

The plugs are new as of a couple of months ago. No soot. Perfectly clean.

ezone

Until you are sick of it and wish to justify spending $100+ on a tow truck just so someone in a shop can crank the daylights out of the starter until it runs, and charge you $150+ for it?

xanaducivic

Congratulations Ezone! You were exactly right.
I put everything back together (I forgot to plug in the cam sensor). I lightly toasted the plugs over a gas burner (as per the suggestion of a friend) and reinstalled them. Throttle full open, cranked once - nothing. Second crank it ran, smokey and rough. It wouldn't idle and then I realised I had forgotten the cam sensor (it set the CEL, of course). Plugged that in and now it runs and idles. Still seems slightly rough, but maybe I am being hyper critical. I have erased the code. Now I need to take it for a run.
Thanks again. As I said before, I appreciate your encouragement.