preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts - Honda Civic Forum



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Old 08-10-2017   #1
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preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

I am in the process of placing my machined cylinder head onto the block of my 03 civic. The block hans't been milled or checked for cracks, I hear this is rather rare. Before I put the newly machined head back on the block how should I prep the block for the mating surfaces of the head and gasket? I hear I can use fine grit sandpaper and lightly brush the black back and forth and then spray brakeleen all over the block to make sure the surface is clean and dry. what else does everyone recommend to be done to the block and a newly machined head?

Also, as far as oiling the cylinder head bolts, what oil does everyone use and how much should I use on them? A few dabs or a lot? also where on the bolts? I've heard everything from just a little oil on certain areas to soaking the threads. I was just going to use 5w-20 motor oil. But then I began reading how sometimes the head bolts will begin to make a popping noise as you torque them, someone said I should use extreme pressure anti-seize. Was considering putting a few dabs of this on the head bolts:
http://www.crcindustries.com/product...oz-SL3333.html

What do you all recommend?

Thank you
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Old 08-10-2017   #2
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Reusing the tensioner after head gasket job, does it need to be reset?

I am in the process of putting the parts back together on my 03 civic after a head gasket job. Was wondering what to do about the tensioner, it was recently installed so it's in perfect working order. And so far the spring and bolt haven't' been messed with in the process of taking the timing belt off and cylinder head. I used a 6mm allen key to turn the tensioner to get the timing belt off but that is all. So I am wondering, does the tensioner need to be pulled out and reset, or can I leave it the way it stands now and put the timing belt back on? If i needs to be reset what is the process for that?


Thank you
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Old 08-10-2017   #3
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How to ensure that the cylinder head is in top dead center after machining the head?

I've gotten my 03 honda civic cylinder head back from a machine shop. They said it may be out of time. Also imagine it might have lost timing in transit to and from the machine shop. They took the camshaft off. Before this I turned the timing belt with the harmonic balancer and get the engine in top dead center. Then took the head off and got it machined. Now that I have it back and the camshaft is off and the head is probably out of time, how do I get the cylinder head and camshaft back in TDC like the harmonic balancer is? Before I took off the belt I made a red mark and an direction arrow on the timing belt and on the camshaft.

Thank you
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Old 08-10-2017   #4
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by Niaboc67 View Post
how should I prep the block
Single edge razor blades and brake cleaner or carb spray. Don't attempt to dig the black colors out to see shiny metal either.
Just make it completely smooth.


ALSO REMOVE ALL THE LIQUID OUT THE 10 HEAD BOLT HOLES BEFORE ASSEMBLING

Quote:
I hear I can use fine grit sandpaper
Oh HELL gottdamn NO.
You hurrrd wrong.

Quote:
Also, as far as oiling the cylinder head bolts, what oil does everyone use and how much should I use on them? A few dabs or a lot? also where on the bolts?
Plain normal engine oil.
Threads and heads/washers.
The idea is to reduce friction during torquing.

I grab all the head bolts at once and dip each end(s) into a cup of oil then let them drip the excess off before dropping them into the holes.


Quote:
But then I began reading how sometimes the head bolts will begin to make a popping noise as you torque them,
Yes they might. The manual states that if a bolt makes noise, back it off and start that bolt over.
Quote:
someone said I should use extreme pressure anti-seize. Was considering putting a few dabs of this on the head bolts:
The service manual does not say to use this. .
Quote:
What do you all recommend?
RTFM
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Old 08-10-2017   #5
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Re: How to ensure that the cylinder head is in top dead center after machining the he

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niaboc67 View Post
I am in the process of putting the parts back together on my 03 civic after a head gasket job. Was wondering what to do about the tensioner, it was recently installed so it's in perfect working order. And so far the spring and bolt haven't' been messed with in the process of taking the timing belt off and cylinder head. I used a 6mm allen key to turn the tensioner to get the timing belt off but that is all. So I am wondering, does the tensioner need to be pulled out and reset, or can I leave it the way it stands now and put the timing belt back on? If i needs to be reset what is the process for that?


Thank you
OK your 3 threads all consolidated here because they are all regarding the exact same job.

IF the tensioner was correctly installed, leave it as is. I personally unhook the spring from its peg using a hook tool instead of cranking the pulley over and possibly stretching out the spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niaboc67 View Post
I've gotten my 03 honda civic cylinder head back from a machine shop. They said it may be out of time. Also imagine it might have lost timing in transit to and from the machine shop. They took the camshaft off. Before this I turned the timing belt with the harmonic balancer and get the engine in top dead center. Then took the head off and got it machined. Now that I have it back and the camshaft is off and the head is probably out of time, how do I get the cylinder head and camshaft back in TDC like the harmonic balancer is? Before I took off the belt I made a red mark and an direction arrow on the timing belt and on the camshaft.

Thank you
set head on its side or block it up off the bench so you can't bend any open valves.There are always some valves open and you will open many more as you rotate the camshaft.

Install cam gear
torque to spec
rotate camshaft using the cam gear to wherever you want it. If you try to turn it using the cam gear bolt, be real real careful you don't overtighten the bolt nor loosen the bolt, because it may be tough to turn the camshaft with all the pressure and drag of rocker arms and valvesprings

If you're scared of valve damage when you set the head on, rotate the crank a quarter turn so none of the pistons are at the top (experiment with this if you want to before installing the head). Turn it back the same quarter turn to TDC after the head is on

After you have the head torqued down and timing belt on correctly, you will need to adjust the valves to spec.


Anything else?
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Old 08-10-2017   #6
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
RTFM
Learn it, Live it, Love it..LOL
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Old 08-11-2017   #7
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Single edge razor blades and brake cleaner or carb spray. Don't attempt to dig the black colors out to see shiny metal either.
Just make it completely smooth.


ALSO REMOVE ALL THE LIQUID OUT THE 10 HEAD BOLT HOLES BEFORE ASSEMBLING


Oh HELL gottdamn NO.
You hurrrd wrong.

Plain normal engine oil.
Threads and heads/washers.
The idea is to reduce friction during torquing.

I grab all the head bolts at once and dip each end(s) into a cup of oil then let them drip the excess off before dropping them into the holes.


Yes they might. The manual states that if a bolt makes noise, back it off and start that bolt over.
The service manual does not say to use this. .
RTFM

Alrighty so I can use the recommendation of 5w-20 that this car uses or any motor oil I have around? Like synthetic and non-synthetic so long as it is motor oil. And then dip the head bolts in 5w-20 and give it a light oil coating, but make sure nothing is dripping (no excess). Then make sure to get under the head and all over the washer and the individual threads.

And before all that I should clean up the block to a shine (no dirt and a dry surface) and make sure every bolt hole is dry and free of any dirt, grim, and debris.

Is buying an angle torque meter a good idea here, or can it be done by feel?
Also how do you go about testing if your torque wrench is accurate? I rented one from AutoZone but who knows if it's giving accurate readings, I don't know what the guy did previously who rented it.

So far I've heavily sprayed down the block with brakeleen and carb/choke cleaner, and still getting the remains of blue devil out of the block. 95% is gone in the cooling jacket (still some on the outside cylinder walls) and all is gone in the cylinder head. Going to spray some more and wipe some more to remove the rest of the carbon build up and then begin getting the cylinder head in time with the harmonic balancer.
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Old 08-11-2017   #8
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Re: How to ensure that the cylinder head is in top dead center after machining the he

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezone View Post
OK your 3 threads all consolidated here because they are all regarding the exact same job.

IF the tensioner was correctly installed, leave it as is. I personally unhook the spring from its peg using a hook tool instead of cranking the pulley over and possibly stretching out the spring.



set head on its side or block it up off the bench so you can't bend any open valves.There are always some valves open and you will open many more as you rotate the camshaft.

Install cam gear
torque to spec
rotate camshaft using the cam gear to wherever you want it. If you try to turn it using the cam gear bolt, be real real careful you don't overtighten the bolt nor loosen the bolt, because it may be tough to turn the camshaft with all the pressure and drag of rocker arms and valvesprings

If you're scared of valve damage when you set the head on, rotate the crank a quarter turn so none of the pistons are at the top (experiment with this if you want to before installing the head). Turn it back the same quarter turn to TDC after the head is on

After you have the head torqued down and timing belt on correctly, you will need to adjust the valves to spec.


Anything else?
Thank you.
The tensioner seems to be installed correctly, I won't touch it I will leave it as it was when the previous garage put it on. So I don't need to remove anything or touch anything involving the tensioner? You recommend leaving as it is, like how the garage left it? Nothing needs to be reset on the tensioner? I can leave that aspect of this job alone?

I will say the parts about getting the head in TDC I am a little confused about too.

first I need to set the head on it's side.

Then, install the cam gear

Then, toque the cam gear bolt to spec bit make sure not to overtighten.

Then, rotate camshaft to TDC by turning the cam sprocket by hand.

Then, as an added test with the head off I should crank the harmonic balancer a 1/4 of a turn counter clockwise so none of the pistons are at the top. Then install the head and turn it back a 1/4 of a then clockwise.

Then, properly adjust the valves on the head to spec.

Not sure if this is right.
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Old 08-11-2017   #9
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Quote:
Alrighty so I can use the recommendation of 5w-20 that this car uses or any motor oil I have around? Like synthetic and non-synthetic so long as it is motor oil. And then dip the head bolts in 5w-20 and give it a light oil coating, but make sure nothing is dripping (no excess). Then make sure to get under the head and all over the washer and the individual threads.
Yes.

Quote:
And before all that I should clean up the block to a shine
HELL NO!!!

SMOOTH AND FLAT is the key, not shiny.
If you dig deep enough to get it shiny, you're removing metal and leaving the surface with microscopic low spots that can cause more leaks.

Quote:
(no dirt and a dry surface) and make sure every bolt hole is dry and free of any dirt, grim, and debris.
I just suck out the holes with a fluid extractor so there's no liquid standing in them. If I think there may be debris of some sort then I shoot brake cleaner into the holes and either blow it out with an air gun or suck it out with the extractor.
Quote:
Is buying an angle torque meter a good idea here, or can it be done by feel?
No again. If you RTFM you should know that tool and procedure is not needed for these head bolts

Quote:
Also how do you go about testing if your torque wrench is accurate? I rented one from AutoZone but who knows if it's giving accurate readings, I don't know what the guy did previously who rented it.
A plain simple beam style torque wrench will be accurate enough if you can read it correctly and make the pointer start at zero.

If using a click type, you don't have any way to know what's correct unless you have a calibration checker......or can attach it to a beam type and read it under load.

My Snap-On tool truck has a calibration tester bolted to the wall. Your local airport maintenance hangar would probably have one, if you can get in or know someone in that business. Some manufacturing industries would have one on site as well, but IDK how you'd find out about it.
Quote:

So I don't need to remove anything or touch anything involving the tensioner? You recommend leaving as it is, like how the garage left it? Nothing needs to be reset on the tensioner? I can leave that aspect of this job alone?
Right. If it was all done correctly there's no need to jack with it now.
The only thing I would do different right now is disconnect the spring to make belt installation easier. After belt is on, use a hook tool to put the spring on its peg again. Done.

Quote:
Then, install the cam gear
You will need to hold the cam or gear still in order to torque the bolt. Be extra careful you don't mar the surface of the gear teeth where the timing belt rides.

Quote:
Then, rotate camshaft to TDC by turning the cam sprocket by hand.
It's gonna be a tight ****, you probably won't be able to do it by hand. That's why I mentioned about being careful while using the bolt to turn it



Quote:
first I need to set the head on it's side.
Because there are always some valves open somewhere and if you set the head flat on your bench the open valves will get bent.
Also, I hope you didn't bend any of the open valves up to this point by doing so.

Some machine shops will loosen all the valve adjusters to get all the valves closed at once so they can mill the head, others might loosen or remove rocker shafts to accomplish the same. This is why the valve clearances need to be checked and adjusted during assembly.

Quote:
I will say the parts about getting the head in TDC I am a little confused about too.
It's simple.
After bolting the head to the engine you can spin the cam anywhere you want as long as none of the pistons are at the top of their holes.
If any piston is at the top you will bend the valves on that cylinder when they open.
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Old 08-11-2017   #10
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Yes.

HELL NO!!!

SMOOTH AND FLAT is the key, not shiny.
If you dig deep enough to get it shiny, you're removing metal and leaving the surface with microscopic low spots that can cause more leaks.

I just suck out the holes with a fluid extractor so there's no liquid standing in them. If I think there may be debris of some sort then I shoot brake cleaner into the holes and either blow it out with an air gun or suck it out with the extractor.
No again. If you RTFM you should know that tool and procedure is not needed for these head bolts

A plain simple beam style torque wrench will be accurate enough if you can read it correctly and make the pointer start at zero.

If using a click type, you don't have any way to know what's correct unless you have a calibration checker......or can attach it to a beam type and read it under load.

My Snap-On tool truck has a calibration tester bolted to the wall. Your local airport maintenance hangar would probably have one, if you can get in or know someone in that business. Some manufacturing industries would have one on site as well, but IDK how you'd find out about it.
Right. If it was all done correctly there's no need to jack with it now.
The only thing I would do different right now is disconnect the spring to make belt installation easier. After belt is on, use a hook tool to put the spring on its peg again. Done.

You will need to hold the cam or gear still in order to torque the bolt. Be extra careful you don't mar the surface of the gear teeth where the timing belt rides.

It's gonna be a tight ****, you probably won't be able to do it by hand. That's why I mentioned about being careful while using the bolt to turn it



Because there are always some valves open somewhere and if you set the head flat on your bench the open valves will get bent.
Also, I hope you didn't bend any of the open valves up to this point by doing so.

Some machine shops will loosen all the valve adjusters to get all the valves closed at once so they can mill the head, others might loosen or remove rocker shafts to accomplish the same. This is why the valve clearances need to be checked and adjusted during assembly.

It's simple.
After bolting the head to the engine you can spin the cam anywhere you want as long as none of the pistons are at the top of their holes.
If any piston is at the top you will bend the valves on that cylinder when they open.
Thank you.
I hacked together a vacuum cleaner with a pen and duct tape to extract all the water from the bolt holes and the fluids around the cylinder walls. When the weather clears up I plan to spray all the bolt hole with non-flammable brakeleen and then wait a few minutes for it to evaporate and then take the vacuum yo the bolt holes.

Also a beam style torque wrench won't ever be out of spec? I have the clicker style from AutoZone but I can get a beam style from advanced Auto. I shouldn't have anything to worry about with a beam style as far as the torque being in spec?

As for the tensioner I should leave it be but only remove the spring to relieve tensioner to easily slide on the timing belt then after the timing belt is slid on I can take that hook tool to reattach the spring?

With the camshaft and getting the head in perfect TDC, it is easier to turn the cam bolt in order to turn the head rather than torque the bolt first and try turning the cam sprocket by hand. So after I torque down the cam bolt while getting someone to hold the cam tightly I will then be able to turn the cam not by hand but by the bolt itself? Not sure I understand the process here exactly.

Right now the valves are only slightly dangling out not enough for them to be bent. It is laying on it's side with the valves belly up.

I don't know if I will do the crank shaft 1/4 forwards and 1/4 back yet. Still wondering if I can get the head in TDC along with maintaining TDC with the crank.

When I go to out the head back on of course I'll use dowels to guide me as well as straws poking out the bolt holes. But when I go to tighten the head bolts how do I determine when to stop hand screwing them and to pull out the torque wrench? I've seen other people do this job where they just do it by feel and screw them in to where they feel each bolt is sufficiently tightened to pull out the torque wrench. But wouldn't that leave the possibility that one of the bolts was like 5 or 8 threads more into the bolt hole than another head bolt? Shouldn't each head bolt be exactly tightened the same amount. So then should I put each one in there and hand turn each one the same number of turns, no more no less, so that each one is precise and exact.

After this is all said and done should I pour some 5w-20 into the oil hole before I start the car. Because after I got it back from the machine shop the entire cylinder head was dry as a bone. Shouldn't I put some oil in there to lube everything up?

Thanks again

Last edited by Niaboc67; 08-11-2017 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 08-11-2017   #11
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Quote:
non-flammable brakeleen
Flammable products are much more effective
Quote:
Also a beam style torque wrench won't ever be out of spec?
If someone bent it into a pretzel then it may not be accurate, obviously.
A good beam type works on the principle of deflection under load which won't go out of calibration unless the metal of the main beam somehow becomes work-hardened from flexing too much. As long as the main beam looks straight and the pointer points to zero, it's good to go. Assuming you can always get your head over the scale to read it from directly above.

The click type can go far out of cal if you drop it or bang it wrong. They can go out of cal just sitting around for years. (Snap-On guy always says they are supposed to be calibrated annually, not cheap) One of my Snappys lost it's sh** and I really have no idea that anything happened to it to cause it, I went to use it one day and it wouldn't click at all.

Quote:
As for the tensioner I should leave it be but only remove the spring to relieve tensioner to easily slide on the timing belt then after the timing belt is slid on I can take that hook tool to reattach the spring?
That's what I do. Also IMO it's easier to release the spring than to fight the belt and an allen wrench at the same time.


Quote:
With the camshaft and getting the head in perfect TDC, it is easier to turn the cam bolt in order to turn the head rather than torque the bolt first and trying to turn by hand. So after I torque down the cam bolt while getting someone to hold the cam tightly I will turn be able to turn the cam not by hand but by the bolt? Not sure I understand the process here exactly.
Cam pulley bolt spec is 27 ft-lb.

It might take that much effort to rotate the entire camshaft....all I'm saying is if you turn it using a wrench on that bolt to be very wary of tightening it beyond the spec.

BTW if you get the dowel pin straight up that's gonna be damn close to TDC#1 for the cam. You can stick the gear on and see the "UP" will be at the top that way too.


Quote:
Right now the valves are only slightly dangling out not enough for them to be bent. It is laying on it's side with the valves belly up.
So did the machine shop back off all the adjusters, or did they loosen the rocker shafts?
Make sure so you can finish assembling it before installing, if necessary.

Quote:
Still wondering if I can get the head in TDC along with maintaining TDC with the crank.
The exercise of trying this out before you install the head was so you can see what happens to each piston when you move the crank. Before the pistons are all hidden. So you can visualize what's happening inside when you move the crank (which pistons go up, which ones go down) and see how far the valves stick out beyond the flat surface of the cylinder head so you can understand how they would get bent if they contact a piston that's up at the wrong time.

If you understand and visualize, you can prevent the disaster from happening.

Quote:
I'll use dowels to guide me as well as straws poking out the bolt holes
Dowels only. No straws. Use a good light and eyeball down the holes if you have to to line it up but the dowels alone are all that's needed.

Quote:
But when I go to tighten the head bolts how do I determine when to stop hand screwing them and to pull out the torque wrench?
Stop me if you've heard this one before: RTFM ! AGAIN!

Tightening is done in multiple steps or stages (and in a specific sequence) to ensure the large castings are drawn together and tightened slowly and EVENLY.
Quote:
So then should I put each one in there and hand turn each one the same number of turns, no more no less, so that each one is precise and exact.
Quit it. You're overthinking this and making my head hurt LOL

Spin them all down using just a socket and extension and your fingers. Til they stop. Then RTFM and get your torque wrench. Follow the instructions. Did I mention RTFM?

Quote:
should I pour some 5w-20 into the oil hole before I start the car. Because after I got it back from the machine shop the entire cylinder head was dry as a bone. Shouldn't I put some oil in there to lube everything up?
Good thinking on this one. Okay, before you install the valve cover, pour one quart over the camshaft to fill the little troughs that the lobes dip into as the cam spins.

You can also crank the engine before allowing it to run on its own so the oil system can prime the filter, bearings, camshaft journals, etc. If you want.


Also remember that coolant got into the crankcase when the head was lifted off the block, so you will probably want to change oil before the fisrt run..........and as cheap insurance during a job like this I usually change oil again after the engine has run long enough to get to operating temperature and get the oil nice and hot. Traces of leftover coolant in the oil can ruin bearings.
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Old 08-12-2017   #12
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Lmao Ezone.. RTFM... lol

Reminds me of previous post.. "Arson is a crime... Make it look like an accident..."


This guy makes me laugh.. I'm surprised he even fixed this car at least with this engine
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Old 08-13-2017   #13
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Is the cylinder head in TDC? (Pics)

This is an 03 civic, I got my cylinder head back from a machine shop, before milling they took off the cam sprocket. Whole milling and in between transit I think the head lost time. So I went to put the cam back onto the cylinder head once I had it back. I laid it on its side so no valves could be bent and then I had someone hold the head. Then I torqued the 12mm cam shaft bolt to 27 ft-lbs per the manual. Then at that point I went put it back it time. I took my torque gloves but still couldn't move it much. So I took a 10" extension and pryed it between the cam sprocket spoke and the head that way I could wedge the cam sprocket to move in a counter clockwise manner. Eventually I seemed to get things lined up nicely with the head but I want a second opinion on how this looks. Want to make sure I did it right. I tried to make the cuts on the side of the cam sprocket line up flush with the block. I took a piece of folded paper to show the flushness as well as different angle pictures. Please tell me if this looks off or not.

Link to pics:
Imgur.com/a/np9mu
http://imgur.com/a/np9mu


Also when I fist got it in TDC to take off the timing belt I think it lined up pretty well with the block but maybe not 100% how accurate must this be? If the crabkpulley assembly is in a certain TDC and the camshaft pulled is in a certain TDC is this will throw everything off, right?
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Old 08-13-2017   #14
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Re: Is the cylinder head in TDC? (Pics)

Looks good to me
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Old 08-13-2017   #15
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Re: Is the cylinder head in TDC? (Pics)

Looks ok to me.
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Old 08-13-2017   #16
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by 04 blue civic View Post
I'm surprised he even fixed this car at least with this engine
I'm not gonna knock him for trying. At least he's giving it a shot.
I just hope it's not a waste of time/effort/money, all things considered.
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Old 08-14-2017   #17
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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I'm not gonna knock him for trying. At least he's giving it a shot.
I just hope it's not a waste of time/effort/money, all things considered.

Thanks
If anything at least I can take away a learning experience from this, even if I see a piston fly out the engine bay when I go to start the car. I am ready to put on the gasketand lay down the cylinder head. Was reading that a lot of people use thread chasers on the bolt holes of the block before they install the head, do you think this is a good idea? If so, I know the socket size is 14mm but the actual thread chaser I am not sure what to get here or how exactly they are used. They look like bolts with cuts along the sides, do I just work them in slowly and look for resistance?

Also, I was looking at angle meters today, do you think that an angle meter would be required here to get the bolts in perfect?

And finally, I know I read this before on here from you, but reusing the head bolts, why is this okay? I think the garage I took it took put in felpro bolts, will these require a different torque then what the manaul states.
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Old 08-14-2017   #18
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Quote:
Was reading that a lot of people use thread chasers on the bolt holes of the block before they install the head, do you think this is a good idea?
Not normally. In fact in all these years doing this for a living I've probably only chased threads in two head bolt holes that I remember..... Only one Honda and it actually required thread insert to fix the hole, a tap did no good.

Take one head bolt and use a socket and extension to spin it all the way down into each hole, I'm sure every hole is clean enough to spin the bolt in by hand.

Quote:

Also, I was looking at angle meters today, do you think that an angle meter would be required here to get the bolts in perfect?
F*CK NO!!!

Do you have worse memory than I do?
Quote:
Quote:
Is buying an angle torque meter a good idea here, or can it be done by feel?
No again. If you RTFM you should know that tool and procedure is not needed for these head bolts
Quote:
And finally, I know I read this before on here from you, but reusing the head bolts, why is this okay? I think the garage I took it took put in felpro bolts, will these require a different torque then what the manaul states.
Did you actually find a manual?
The manual is the bible here. RTFM

The manual does NOT say to replace the bolts. If it were necessary the manual would say so.

The manual DOES tell you the correct torque spec and sequence. This does not change no matter who sold what brand of unnecessary replacement bolts.
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Old 08-15-2017   #19
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
F*CK NO!!!

Do you have worse memory than I do?
Did you actually find a manual?
The manual is the bible here. RTFM
Ease up on the boy...this is only the third time you told him that...LOL
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Old 08-17-2017   #20
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Not normally. In fact in all these years doing this for a living I've probably only chased threads in two head bolt holes that I remember..... Only one Honda and it actually required thread insert to fix the hole, a tap did no good.

Take one head bolt and use a socket and extension to spin it all the way down into each hole, I'm sure every hole is clean enough to spin the bolt in by hand.

F*CK NO!!!

Do you have worse memory than I do?
Did you actually find a manual?
The manual is the bible here. RTFM

The manual does NOT say to replace the bolts. If it were necessary the manual would say so.

The manual DOES tell you the correct torque spec and sequence. This does not change no matter who sold what brand of unnecessary replacement bolts.
Head is now on, did the sequenced, torqued to spec, small popping from the head bolts but got them all to click: 14, 36, 49. Then I snugged on the timing belt, apparently in the process of sliding it on it threw off the timing belt pulley. The camshaft pulley is in the TDC but the timing belt pulley is not. The timing belt pulley has advanced 1/2" of so forwards. How do I get the timing belt pulley aligned again with the camshaft without damaging the valves?

Thanks
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Old 08-17-2017   #21
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Re: Is the cylinder head in TDC? (Pics)

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Originally Posted by xRiCeBoYx View Post
Looks good to me
I think I read one of your posts about the camshaft pulley and timing belt pulley getting misaligned when putting the timing belt back on. How did you solve this problem? If I were to turn the timing belt pulley counter clockwise this would damage the valves. Is there a process to getting the timing belt pulley back in alignment after the head is back on?
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Old 08-17-2017   #22
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Align crank pulley to the TDC marks.

(at this point I take the tensioner spring off its peg so that pulley will relax)
Slip timing belt off
Move cam gear (just the amount of 2 teeth or however far it's off) to desired location
Reinstall belt (and spring)
Double check marks are now aligned


Valves won't be damaged unless they contact piston(s)
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Old 08-17-2017   #23
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Align crank pulley to the TDC marks.

(at this point I take the tensioner spring off its peg so that pulley will relax)
Slip timing belt off
Move cam gear (just the amount of 2 teeth or however far it's off) to desired location
Reinstall belt (and spring)
Double check marks are now aligned


Valves won't be damaged unless they contact piston(s)
I have the tensioner spring off. Are you saying I should move the cam gear the same amount "off timing" as the timing belt pulley? Then reinstall the belt and move the timing belt to see if they are both in the same time TDC? So I have to guess the correct amount off on the timing belt pulley and compensate that on the camshaft pulley? Now if I don't guess right and go to move the timing belt I am taking a chance of having the piston hit up against the valves.
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Old 08-17-2017   #24
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Here is what the timing belt pulley looks like with the belt on and off.

​​​​​​
http://imgur.com/a/aUIYL

http://imgur.com/a/aUIYL

Seems like the timing is off slightly,. enough maybe to cause some issues when started. Tell me what you think.
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Old 08-17-2017   #25
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Re: Pics
Looking at this pic:

Crank needs to turn maybe 5 degrees counterclockwise to be perfect? Move it that far.


If you pushed the belt off of the camshaft gear instead of the tensioner pulley it probably pulled the crank to this position.

Remember when I told you to experiment with spinning the crank before the head was installed so you can see what the pistons do? This is why you need to be able to logically visualize what's going on inside the engine.
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Old 08-17-2017   #26
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Re: Pics
Looking at this pic:

Crank needs to turn maybe 5 degrees counterclockwise to be perfect? Move it that far.


If you pushed the belt off of the camshaft gear instead of the tensioner pulley it probably pulled the crank to this position.

Remember when I told you to experiment with spinning the crank before the head was installed so you can see what the pistons do? This is why you need to be able to logically visualize what's going on inside the engine.
Thanks
I put the woodruff key in and the harmonic balancer and turned it ever so slightly counter clockwise until the marks lined up. Then I put the timing belt on and turned it, only thing is I turned it maybe 30* until I realized I didn't have the tensioner spring back on. So I took some pilers and put it on, will that throw things off now that the tensioner wasn't on there for that 30* turn?

Also, after that I turned the harmonic balancer about 6 revolutions and then took it off once it lines up with TDC with the cam, when I checked the timing belt pulley the arrows still lined up. So I guess this means everything is keeping time.

Am a little worried about the "popping" I heard on the bolts, nothing terrible they all eventually clicked but sometimes I would turn on head bolt and then others would be completely loose and I have have to tighten them. Then others I would turn and there would be a sligh squeaking noise. I need to perform a leak down test toe make sure there isn't any cross leakage between cylinders.

And in the manual it says the harmonic balancer bolt is 14 ft lbs with a 90* turn, this doesn't seem right. Shouldn't it be like 180 ft-lbs? My torque wrench only goes up to 150 ft-lbs. How accurate must that be. I read that the crank bolt tightens as you drive.
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Old 08-17-2017   #27
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Quote:
will that throw things off now that the tensioner wasn't on there for that 30* turn?
Only if the belt jumped a few teeth.
Quote:
I turned the harmonic balancer about 6 revolutions and then took it off once it lines up with TDC with the cam, when I checked the timing belt pulley the arrows still lined up. So I guess this means everything is keeping time.
Sounds like it didn't skip teeth. So far so good.

Quote:
but sometimes I would turn on head bolt and then others would be completely loose and I have have to tighten them.
This was only during the very first part of tightening them from finger tight up to the first stage of torquing.

Make sure you double check torque on all of the head bolts after the final stage, you don't want to miss any.

Quote:
And in the manual it says the harmonic balancer bolt is 14 ft lbs with a 90* turn, this doesn't seem right. Shouldn't it be like 180 ft-lbs?
What YEAR are you looking at? And what manual? What engine?
Quote:
My torque wrench only goes up to 150 ft-lbs. How accurate must that be.
If you ever get hold of the correct info, it's pretty freekin important. That's why we have specs.

Crank pulley bolt:
Apply clean engine oil to the threads and both sides of the washer
Torque to 148 ft-lb.


Quote:
I read that the crank bolt tightens as you drive.
Hell no, that's wrong. It doesn't move after torquing correctly.

If you leave it too loose it is gonna fall out, and THAT will cause major problems.
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Old 08-18-2017   #28
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Only if the belt jumped a few teeth.Sounds like it didn't skip teeth. So far so good.

This was only during the very first part of tightening them from finger tight up to the first stage of torquing.

Make sure you double check torque on all of the head bolts after the final stage, you don't want to miss any.

What YEAR are you looking at? And what manual? What engine?
If you ever get hold of the correct info, it's pretty freekin important. That's why we have specs.

Crank pulley bolt:
Apply clean engine oil to the threads and both sides of the washer
Torque to 148 ft-lb.


Hell no, that's wrong. It doesn't move after torquing correctly.

If you leave it too loose it is gonna fall out, and THAT will cause major problems.
Am I little worried about the popping noise. It was only in the first stage that the bolts became very loose as I torqued others. for 36 and 49 ft-lbs it was smoother but still a little popping. They all clicked at the end. But seemed like I had to force it. I will do a leakdown test maybe tomorrow if the weather is good. I must take a lot of precautions to make sure there is no leak between cylinders.

I torqued the crank bolt down to 148 ft-lbs, it clicked. Double checked it. Then put the timing belt cover and such on. Then the intake manifold. Then I went to put on the engine mount and that's where I hit a snag. I was torqued them down evenly to 45 ft-lbs when all the sudden one of them wasn't having it. I keep turning and nothing was tightening. The 17mm bolt near the rear came off of its holster. So looks like I'll have to either buy a new one or go to a junkyard to get one. I think this is the part number: 11910-PLC-010

Can I continue the job even though that side engine mount bracket has one of its studs completely popped out?

Am thinking now I could reuse the same stud that came out of the mount. But then put some permatex loctite blue into the bottom end of the threads and take two nuts the lock them together at the top of the stud, then use them to screw down the stud into the mount. Then wait a minute for the loctite to seal and then break off the nuts. Would this work? Is there a better way?

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Old 08-18-2017   #29
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

Quote:

Can I continue the job even though that side engine mount bracket has one of its studs completely popped out?
If that's the bracket that holds up the alternator, figure out how to fix it before proceeding. Did it strip the threads out of the bracket?
You won't want to remove it again after it's all assembled.

Quote:
loctite
Would this work?
No. Loctite can't take the place of missing/stripped threads.

Sounds like it needs a thread insert (heli-coil) installed, or replace the bracket......
Depending on your old parts stash maybe an extra long bolt could be threaded in from the bottom. IDK.
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Old 08-19-2017   #30
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Re: preparing the engine block for the head and gasket + oiling the head bolts

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
If that's the bracket that holds up the alternator, figure out how to fix it before proceeding. Did it strip the threads out of the bracket?
You won't want to remove it again after it's all assembled.

No. Loctite can't take the place of missing/stripped threads.

Sounds like it needs a thread insert (heli-coil) installed, or replace the bracket......
Depending on your old parts stash maybe an extra long bolt could be threaded in from the bottom. IDK.
How bad is it to keep an engine on that single stud instead of two? I think I can fit the stud down enough but I dont know if I can tighten it. Would one suffice for a little while until I can get a bracket. I want to finish this job.
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