jimmyangst

Howdy! I'm in an awkward position regarding a broken 2004 Civic & could use some extra brainpower. The backstory is, a friend who knows nothing about cars suffered a series of unfortunate events culminating in the death of the family car. I volunteered to keep my eyes peeled for a basic set of wheels, since he's stuck Ubering to work (at $40/day!) in the meantime. Found a 2004 Civic "Value Package" 4 dr automatic that had been sitting for several months. Teenager "upgraded" to a new-ish Chevy Cobalt and left the Honda in the driveway. I looked it over thoroughly, gave it a test drive, and other than rusty brakes, it ran great. Even the A/C worked. New tires, new alternator. I gave it my blessing & we drove it home.
The Civic wasn't tagged yet, so I was following in my car. To provide a distraction in case a pesky cop came up from behind. Also in case the car broke down. It was a 40 mile drive, and about 8 miles from home, I heard a "pop" and a cloud of smoke/dust came out the tailpipe. Brendan, driving the Civic, said it was more like a "boom!" from where he sat. It lost power & he coasted to the shoulder. Crap. Popped the hood, poked around, fluids good, nothing visibly awry. Car would crank but not start, but turned over without any strange/ hideous noises as one might hear from a broken timing belt. I got in the driver seat and managed to start it, we limped it home. Idles fine, but if you give it moderate throttle it bogs and acts like it's going to die.
Once out of the road and in the driveway, I realized what had happened-- the PO had evidently removed the AC compressor at some point, 'cause 1 bolt was missing entirely and the other had backed out completely. The AC / alternator belt had shredded once the compressor came loose. Evidently it momentarily locked up the engine, which caused the giant backfire and killed the engine during our journey home. I replaced the missing bolt & new belt, but the awful symptoms remain. Idles very smoothly, dunno what RPM cause the "Value" package doesn't have a tach. But it doesn't hunt/surge/miss at idle. When stepping on the gas, you have to be very gentle or it will start bucking and misfiring bad.

What damage could have been caused by the belt working its way off/binding up the engine momentarily? Symptoms definitely started with that event. Alternator works fine now, btw, and compressor spins freely. So it didn't damage either of those (much, anyway!) It did snap the suction line for the a/c, which is sad.

Thanks for any advice, as I feel really bad for blessing the purchase and then having this happen. I feel obligated to find the solution & fix it for em now.

ezone

See (check with a wrench) if the alternator mounting bolts are not tight.

jimmyangst

Yep, the alternator mounting bolts are all snugged down-- had to take the alt & P/S pump out to fix the flopping/unbolted compressor. A little tricky getting to the bolts once the new belt was installed. And those wing nut adjusters darn near murdered my hands, BTW!
Ya know though, I did NOT check the actual electrical connections on the alternator. Just unbolted & swung it out of the way, didn't verify that they'd tightened the lectric bit... Did check alternator output, 14.4V steady (at the battery, not on the alternator itself)...

jimmyangst

Ezone, followup:

I may have misinterpreted your question-- the alternator mounting bolts were all tight (very tight) when the belt jumped. It was all about the a/c compressor coming loose and going wild in the engine bay. The alt bolts made a "crack" when I broke them free. Too bad they didn't give the compressor the same treatment. And install BOTH bolts. Facing the engine, the one on the LH side was missing. I'm certain it was just... not there to start with, cause I had the devil of a time getting a new bolt into that position, fan shroud is in the way. I can't imagine it wiggling its way out of the compressor and falling to the highway. FWIW, it's a flanged M8x1.25 100mm with 80mm shoulder, as I recall. My totally awesome local Ace hardware had the identical specimen.

Thanks again for your help, it's much appreciated!
Jim B.

ezone

Sorry, I was at lunch and saw the system had ghosted your first post so I made it go live, then didn't have time to read it all the way through.
These cars can ruin the PCM if someone forgets to tighten the mounting bolts for the alternator (corrosion in the mounting can cause it too) or if it loses major grounding for the drivetrain.


The compressor is fully installed now? How does it run? Does it still do this:
When stepping on the gas, you have to be very gentle or it will start bucking and misfiring bad.

Got a scanner? Got data list?
Check for codes?
Will it act up just sitting still revving it up in the driveway?
Check small wire grounds near upper radiator hose flange?

Spraycan of flammable carb/throttle cleaner, spritz some into the throttle body during bog to see if it's starving for fuel?

jimmyangst

Ezone:

I've heard of PCMs getting whacked by power spikes/ loose ground. Makes sense (though one would think it'd be wise for the mfger to provide a buffer against such things..) Going to have my friend bring the car to my house Weds. pm for a closer inspection. Got it "repaired" last week in his driveway with the tools I had piled in my trunk. Easier to work with a garage and all my tools onhand.
The compressor is fully installed now? --Yes, spins freely How does it run?-- Idle is perfect-- silent with the hood closed. Does it still do this:
When stepping on the gas, you have to be very gentle or it will start bucking and misfiring bad. --Yes it does

Got a scanner? --Will have codes tomorrow, owner will get em done & pass on to me Got data list? --Will do!
Check for codes? -- I actually bit the bullet and ordered a fairly basic scanner, but it has freeze frame and such: Ancel AD310 Will try it out in addition to the codes Otter Zone provides tomorrow. Good lord, I'm entering the Modern World. I'm officially Old. Spark, Fuel, Air, Timing. Nope, there's more to it than that now, isn't there?!

Will it act up just sitting still revving it up in the driveway? --No, revs in P or N without a hiccup, only stalls out under load & power is WAY down
Check small wire grounds near upper radiator hose flange? --I looked at those and tried to wiggle, tight but kinda crusty. I'll remove & dose with contact cleaner.

Spraycan of flammable carb/throttle cleaner, spritz some into the throttle body during bog to see if it's starving for fuel? -- easy test, I'll see if it revs to the moon. Since it seems to rev ok when not under load, it might not give us much data. But it's fun to juice the engine with flammable aerosols, so I'll give it a healthy dose for scientific purposes.

Thanks again for the tips so far-- I guess we'll know a lot more once I've got some codes to provide. Also, once I get it in my garage I can jack it up and get a better look to see if there was any physical damage when the belt & compressor let loose. Thinking out loud, I wonder if the cam sensor wiring could've gotten whacked by a flying belt? I can drive myself crazy speculating! I appreciate your help, I'll post up more info on Weds. when I get hands on the car (and codes!) and take 'er from there.
Cheers!
Jim B.
Grove City, OH

ezone

Quote:

I'm officially Old.

Have you seen my skateboard? LOL

I won't admit to knowing what a carb is at work. Would you?

Quote:

Spark, Fuel, Air, Timing. Nope, there's more to it than that now, isn't there?!

"Compression, fuel, and spark" are still the same basics they always were.

So is "garbage in, garbage out"


I think you'd have codes if that happened. Visual wiring check tho.
Same for crank sensor, it's also in the damage vicinity of a shredding belt. Corrosion in the connector terminals?

You could remove the alt/AC belt just to see if it runs significantly better too.
Fuel checks, exhaust backpressure check, cam timing check?

jimmyangst

Captain's log update:

My buddy with the broken car just got the codes scanned & sent em to me:
P0335 Crank Position Sensor "A" Circuit malfunction (no signal)
P0135 H2OS-11 (sensor 1 heater malfunction)

So... Ezone, I think you're onto something with the crank sensor getting whacked by the flying belt. He's bringing it over this afternoon, I'll jack it up and get a good look at the sensor & its wiring.

I'll check the Haynes manual, I promise, but regardless what it says, do you need to remove the lower timing cover to replace the CKP sensor [edit: what I meant to say was "to r & r the CKP WIRING" Hoping I can just unplug it & splice if it's damaged?] Hoping it doesn't come to removing the timing cover, but the more you know...

Thanks again, I'll update once I get a fresh look at things.

Also, regarding the O2 sensor, that's probably been cooked for a while. Wonder just how much the heater matters, if that's all that's wrong with it? Gotta prioritize these repairs, and if it's just an annoyance I'll suggest he save his $$ for a while before I replace it.

Cheers!
Jim B.

ezone

Wiring you can reach easily.

Sensor replacement means removing the crank pulley and timing cover.


The front sensor is an AF sensor, not a plain O2 sensor.

I'd ohm check the sensor to see if the heater circuit is open.
Inspect wiring, etc.
9/10 are fixed by simple sensor replacement, but occasionally it's something else.....

but use the original brand sensor. If yours was a Denso sensor, replace with the same.
NO Bosch, Wells, BWD, or other garbage sensors.


Look it up on their site and then search for their part number
http://densoautoparts.com/find-my-pa...icle-selection

Probably will be a # 234-9005

jimmyangst

O Happy Day! The gods of automotive repair were smiling on me today. The belt had, indeed, torn through the loom and nicked two of the wires pretty good. After fussing with removing the loom-- there are 3 looms that come together in a connector on the backside of the timing cover-- I finally elected to carefully slice the loom so I could get at the wires and tape the you-know-what out of them. Actually, I closely inspected the nicked wires and it looked like the yellow one had a couple strands actually broken and the blue one was unfazed, just bare. So first I wrapped a strand of tape around them and hooked everything back up, reset the codes and started the car. First observation was that it started instantly-- before, it would crank a few seconds before firing up. Second, took it for a spin and the bogging/dropping out/misfire was completely gone. Runs flawlessly. Went back to the garage, checked the codes again, just the aforementioned O2 heater circuit code. Taped the living daylights out of the wiring, each wire individually and then wrapped the snot out of the whole mess. Added a little dielectric grease to the sensor plug while it was apart. I always do that with electrical things, it's a compulsion.
So... our friend has a functional automobile. And thank God I don't have to do a timing belt on it to replace the sensor. I mean, if you're in there... it'd be crazy not to replace the belt & tensioner. And really, since they come as a kit, it'd be crazy not to replace the water pump too. I expect I'll get roped into that job, but according to the (incomplete, sparse, random) service records it was replaced at 105K, has 155k now. So it'll be a couple years. Maybe he'll sell it in the meantime!

So the O2 (A/F) sensor is next up to bat. I just checked, you're correct, it's 234-9005. $90 genuine Denso (sold by Denso) on Amazon. I checked the Haynes manual, it just has "replacement" listed for O2 issues. Would you have a link to a how-to for checking the O2 wiring resistance etc. before dropping the $ for a new sensor? It'd be fantastic if I could run down an open wire and fix it for nothin'!

Also, and this is kinda off topic, but I'm curious: any idea why Honda has so many G-D different sensors for the 1.7L engines? Even the same year are different, and maybe even 4 door vs coupe, ABS vs non-ABS, perhaps even blue cars and red cars! Also the fact that there are, I dunno, 7 different iterations of the D17A series engine, all with different sensors? Just seems weird. Or again, maybe I'm just old and cranky. Had a heck of a time determining which was the right sensor-- shoulda asked you sooner and I'd've had that link you just sent for Denso!
Next week is O2 sensor work and a basic tuneup-- air filter, oil & filter change & a set of NGK G Power plugs ($8 for the set! Rock Auto!)

All this tinkering, BTW, is for my childhood friend's son, who's kinda running the family now. They've been hit with a series of calamities, so your help means a lot in keeping them afloat and mobile. I'd've been doing a lot of terrible googling and youtubing, and maybe going down a rabbit hole or two, not knowing what to look for without your direction and the stuff I've gleaned from the forum.

So the next time you grind your teeth when asked, "hi! I changed my oil but the maintenance light is still on. How do I get it turned off?" just remember that y'all are doing a lot of good, helping out clueless schmucks like me. And their families.

Anyway, seriously appreciate your assistance!

Cheers
Jim B.
Grove City, OH

ezone

No, the good (Honda) parts don't come in a kit LOL


No link. Use common sense.

9/10 are just a bad sensor, so start with a simple ohm check on the heater circuit of the sensor itself. The pair of like colored wires are the heater circuit. What's your reading?



You're just old and cranky. These are freeking simple cars compared to some others I've worked with.

If you just look at sensors only for the 01-05 D17Ax, there's probably only 2 but they need different length wires and different connectors to work with various versions of the cars. Maybe 6 variations total of those 2 basic sensors for the most common versions of this car.

Of course a hybrid is way different, K20 engine gets yet more different parts, etc.

THAT is in the owners manual! LOL