tn04civiclx

I have a 2004 Civic LX (5 speed) that I bought at the end of March. Test drive went fine, and on a second test drive, I even had a friend with me who is good with cars, so that he good test drive it and assess the wholeness of the car. No problems were found (except maybe the ISB from chatter heard when the clutch pedal is not pushed in) and I bought the car. FYI: The car had just under 137,000 miles on it when I bought it.

The next morning, it cranked strong but would not start. I gave it about three attempts, still no start. I left it for a few hours and when I came back, it started on the first try, right away (almost no cranking time). I replaced the plugs with NGK Iridiums, figuring that the plugs could use replacing (the old ones looked pretty old). I drove it to work and out to lunch to meet some friends, and when we got ready to leave, it cranked over but would not start. I had the same friend with me (as on the test drive earlier) and we waited a while after calling another coworker to come pick us up, and tried again: it started right up.

At this point, he suggested that we run some Seafoam through it, so we drove to Auto Zone and put a small quantity of Seafoam through it via the brake booster intake hose, with him controlling the intake while I was in the cabin area keeping the car going. We did this about three times and then put the hose back on, and drove back to work.

The next day or so, the same thing happened as before, only this time, it still wouldn't start. We took the air filter housing off and sprayed some brake cleaner into the throttle body and it started right up and revved the engine to something like 5000 or 6000 RPMs before going back down to normal idle. After this, I found that I had to repeat this starting process about every 3-5 starts, until finally, Saturday, April 8th, it wouldn't start at all. I again tried the brake cleaner, to no avail.

I'm sure it's not related, but somewhere around one to two weeks after I bought the car, the blower motor stopped blowing. I removed the glove box and followed a detailed step-by-step procedure for isolating the issue to the blower motor transistor. Replaced it and the climate control issue was fully resolved.

I began troubleshooting my crank but no start issue, and have done the following so far (and in this order):

-Replaced the spark plugs with NGK Iridium (as mentioned previously)
-Removed both battery clamps (negative and positive) and thoroughly removed all corrosion and cleaned them with baking soda and water, and an old toothbrush, covering the connections with Vaseline after making the connections nice and tight again
-Removed the fuel pump assembly and replaced the fuel pump filter and o-ring
-Tested the in-line fuel pressure with a kit rented from Auto Zone: Got 40 lbs on the gauge (Haynes manual says specs are 40-47)
-Tested for spark by removing each spark plug, one by one, and having my wife crank it over while the spark plug was about an inch from ground (spark jumped over each time, except for cylinder 4, which consistently failed even after swapping coils, and then plugs with cylinder 3)
-Removed the throttle body, fuel rail, and all four injectors and soaked the ends in brake cleaner, being careful not to get any brake cleaner on or around the electrical terminals
-Measured resistance between terminals on each injector and found all four to be uniform (no outliers) - with 14-15 ohms each
-Removed the IAC valve from the throttle body and scrubbed and thoroughly cleaned the throttle body and IAC valve, removing all carbon deposits
-Replaced the fuel pump and strainer in case the pump was damaged and not providing enough fuel pressure
-Pulled out the fuel rail and placed cardboard under the injectors, reinstalled the throttle body, and cranked the engine to test for fuel spray on the cardboard from the injectors (the cardboard remained completely dry)
-Disconnected the electrical connectors from the injectors and connected the GM PFI noid light from the Auto Zone kit (27161) to check for injector pulse while my wife cranked the engine (no light on either connector)


In addition to the above, I observed that the fuel pump switched on both: before and after being replaced, and also that PGM-FI relay No. 2 clicked/still clicks consistently when the key is turned to the 'On' position.

One thing that I noticed, is that the spacing was incorrect on my fuel rail when I reinstalled it and the four injectors into their intake holes (using all-new o-rings, including the specific Honda OEM upper o-rings purchased directly from my local Honda dealership). I seem to recall that the black plastic spacer was only on the mounting bolt on the driver side, and that the passenger side end (the end where the fuel line connects to the rail) did not have a spacer. Am I mistaken?

When I reinstalled the nuts, I found a lot of space left over on the passenger side end of the fuel rail mounting bolt, however, I could not locate any other spacers. I fashioned a temporary one out of several layers of thick cardboard (what I had at the time), which I compressed down to similar thickness of the black spacer on the opposite side.

Can someone on here confirm for me which noid light can be used on Honda connectors, and whether or not my test was conclusive? Also, confirmation/correction for my testing procedures (fuel pressure test, spark test, noid light test) would be greatly appreciated, as I am unsure whether or not I conducted these tests correctly.

I would also love to hear what other tests I can possibly do with my digital multimeter to confirm status of various wires and components related to my issue.

I apologize for such a long post, but I want to be as thorough as possible in describing what I have done to troubleshoot my crank, no start issue. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

-Philip

UPDATE: The car is running again, as of Saturday, May 13th. You can skip to that post here to see the details, but essentially, the root cause was a faulty engine block grounding strap. When I replaced mine with one (and its bolts) pulled from a junkyard car, the car started up normally again.

mac25

I was a bit confused but you mentioned

"-Disconnected the electrical connectors from the injectors and connected the GM TBI noid light from the Auto Zone kit (27161) to check for injector pulse while my wife cranked the engine (no light on either connector)".

So that's your issue right no Pulse to injectors. Have you traced the circuit back from the injectors to the ECU?

ezone

mac25, any idea why both of these posts were ghosted?

tn04civiclx

Can I say that my tests were conclusive with that noid light? That was part of my question - I wasn't sure that the GM PFI noid light works correctly with Honda fuel injector connectors. If that was a conclusive test, then yes, no pulse to the injectors.
Forgive my ignorance, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with tracing circuits. What is the best method for tracing those circuits back to the ECU?

Would I peel back all of the black electrical tape and separate the halves of the black covers that snap together and are mounted at various points in the engine compartment, and probe the wires all along those routes, or is there a different (better) method? Also, I have a test light and a digital multimeter. Would I need additional equipment for tracing the circuits back?

I also realize now that I left out an additional thing that I discovered: the new spark plugs have a thick black ring around the top threads (after all of my driving for about two weeks, having to use the brake cleaner at times to get the car started). Is this from running too rich or what would be the cause, and is it cause for concern?

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it. I love to drive this car and am bummed that it's not running right now. It was to be my daily driver, and I am having to pay a lot more in gas money right now because it won't start.

tn04civiclx

I don't know if my last post is being evaluated by the moderators or what, but I don't see it posted here. I was asking for confirmation that the GM PFI noid light will give conclusive results.

tn04civiclx

I am not all that experienced with tracing circuits, but in principle, you're verifying no breaks in the wiring from point to point, correct? Is there more involved with tracing circuits in automotive wiring? Also, the tools I have are a digital multimeter and a test light - do I need additional equipment?

ezone

Post unghosted AGAIN.

ezone

Noid light is valid.....but it's gonna be really brief and possibly dim blinks so one might need to be watching really close while someone else cranks it over.
I usually test this using an LED test light because the LED will react instantly to a pulse, but it can still be dim and hard to see.

If no light, your next step should be to evaluate the two wires in that connector to see which one isn't right. One wire would have 12v whenever the main relay is on, the other wire is pulsed ground from the PCM to control the injectors on and off.


Post pics of spark plug in question?

tn04civiclx

I took my battery to Auto Zone to give it a nice overnight recharge. It was slowly cranking the engine, having run down from the excessive cranking during troubleshooting. I reinstalled it in the car.

Did the noid light test again and after a few tries on each connector, it eventually lit up on each connector. I also did a spark test with each coil and a spare spark plug in the coil boot touching ground on the valve cover bolts. All cylinders but #4 consistently sparked. I then swapped coils between 3 (known good) and 4, and still got no spark.

The thick grounding strap (bolted between chassis and upper radiator hose neck) was looking pretty green (corroded), especially on the engine end of it. I was getting inconsistent connectivity with my test light on it, so I figured it needed a nice scrubbing. I have also read numerous places how vitally important that grounding strap is for the car. I mixed up some baking soda with hot water in a cup, dunked the strap in the solution, and scrubbed the crap out of it and the connectors with steel wool. It is now nice, shiny copper from end to end.

I put everything back together (coils and connectors, fuel injectors and connectors) but it still won't start. Only code the scanner read was P0113, high voltage on IAT sensor. No biggy, I still had the air filter housing off and the IAT sensor disconnected.

When I reconnected the IAT sensor and cleared the codes with a scan tool, I am now not getting any codes.

tn04civiclx

Here are the pics of what the spark plugs look like (sorry, posting the images with IMG tags didn't work for some reason):
https://ibb.co/giX46Q
https://ibb.co/dG9TY5
https://ibb.co/nQXRLk

ezone

Plugs appear normal. And not wet.....Were they wet?

Are the injectors delivering fuel? Is the pump delivering fuel and pressure to the rail?

Open the air filter cover, open the throttle by hand (use the cable) and give the throttle body a couple squirts of spray carb/throttle cleaner (FLAMMABLE TYPE) and see if the engine will try to fire on it.

tn04civiclx

The old Denso plugs didn't have that distinct black ring on the top threads, and neither did these plugs before I installed them new a few weeks ago. Is it normal for them to develop a dark black ring on the top threads nearest the electrode tip?

tn04civiclx

The plugs were all dry when I removed them, they just all had/have that thick, black band on the top threads. They all still give spark, but I was thinking that this symptom might be something to watch out for. If I recall correctly, doesn't this usually indicate that the engine is running too rich?

tn04civiclx

I have yet to do a fuel pressure test on it since the last one, which was before I removed and soaked both ends of the fuel injectors in brake cleaner (connector terminals were not allowed to come into contact with brake cleaner). What is the best way to check if the injectors are delivering fuel? I still have that piece of cardboard that I put underneath for my earlier fuel spray test. Should I do that again or are you referring to some other method?

tn04civiclx

The CRC throttle body and air intake cleaner that I used is listed as being highly flammable. Should I instead use brake cleaner as I did in the past when needed to get it started?

Also, I have yet to fully reassemble the air filter and duct because I want easy access to the fuel rail and throttle body again. I also still have the throttle and cruise cables disconnected. Should I reconnect them for this test or is it sufficient for me to manually open the throttle plate by rotating the cam to spray the throttle body cleaner into the intake? And when I spray into the throttle body, should I open the throttle plate all the way (and use the straw vs just the aerosol tip) or just enough for the cleaner to get down into the intake (and not just pooling up on top of the plate)?

tn04civiclx

Thanks for the additional insight, ezone. A Honda mechanic told me today that there should be injector pulse for at least 5 seconds while cranking. Do you know what he means by this? In my case, as I noted above, it took several cranks per connector before the noid light lit up; and even then, it was very brief and did not reoccur. Is this a normal result or do I need to do additional stuff to determine that the injectors/connectors are not faulty?

ezone

Soot around the end is not a problem, it reflects what's been going on in the combustion chamber---between the last time it actually ran, and up to this point that it does not run.
As soon as it runs good again and you can drive it around to get the engine all warmed up a lot of that soot will get burned off.


(I didn't realize you had checked this)
Did they spray fuel during cranking then? Do they still spray fuel now?



Whatever flammable spray is handy. All I wanted to know was 'will the engine try to fire' on a spray can.

Not sure what is meant by 5 seconds comment. They will not constantly spray for 5 seconds.

You have seen how the sparks happen, once for each cylinder as the engine is being cranked? Injectors squirt fuel kinda similar to the sparks, very brief (atomized) squirt for each cylinder for every crank revolution.


When they work right.
If the system can't pulse a tiny light bulb, it sure won't pulse the injectors.
That's why I want to know if the engine will attempt to fire on a spray can.....


BUT



I haven't followed the entire thread here.....I skimmed a little of it just now and have a couple questions:
Have you checked cam timing? If the timing belt jumps more than a tooth or two, the PCM can shut the engine down when it notices the cam-crank sensors signals too far out of sync.
Also check if the spring for the tensioner let go.....the timing belt would go slack and it can jump time, and if it still ran it might rattle real loud as the belt slaps the timing covers.
(137k miles and a rattle noise mentioned made me think of this, you didn't mention anything about timing belt maintenance)

Have you checked what the green key light in the gauges is doing when you crank the engine? If it is flashing angrily while you crank it, it's not recognizing the immobilizer key for some reason.


I can't answer about the injector rail spacers and whatnot, you might want to look at an unmolested car or search for pics on google images

tn04civiclx

Yeah, a guy from O'Reilly Auto Parts said that his friend did that to check for fuel spray on his Civic as well. And to answer your question, no, there was not any fuel spray - none at all.


I'm not completely sure either, his statement was simply, "It should have signal for atleast 5 seconds while you are cranking."

Is this where my 12V test light (with LEDs) would really come in handy? If so, I'm thinking of using some light wire from a twist tie to go in one of the terminals which then has the alligator clip connected to it. I would of course then just use the pointed probe tip on the other connector terminal and have my wife crank it for me again. Any suggestions for a better setup or is that pretty much what you meant?

1. I haven't checked the cam timing but that was something that was recommended to me by that same Honda tech. Unfortunately, I have to wait to get that special tool for the crank pulley (unless this community has a really good alternative method that I can use) so I can pull off the bottom belt cover and get to the tensioner as well. Question: Would the cam/crank sensor(s) being out of range trigger the PCM to store a code which would then be detected by a code scanner? I got no codes.

2. I'll check the spring on the tensioner once I can get to it.

3. It's certainly possible that the belt has jumped a tooth or two, however, I don't hear any of the loud slapping sound that you describe, and didn't hear anything like that the last time that it ran either.

4. Regarding timing belt maintenance, I bought this car from a used car lot where the guy just buys cars at auction and doesn't do any major maintenance. He will tell you that he tries to sell vehicles to people who are savvy and mechanically inclined, thus passing the savings on to the customer. That having been said, there is a strip of blue painter's tape on the front of the car (where the hood makes contact with the chassis) which indicates (handwritten) that the car received timing belt and water pump service at 97,600 miles. The car now has just over 138,000 miles. Once I can get to the covers, I can verify what shape the belt is in, and will replace it at that point no matter the condition. I will also replace the water pump and tensioner (and of course the drive belts and valve cover gasket set), considering how involved that maintenance is for this car.

As for the rattle sound, it is more of a clattering sound, and it seems to emanate from the middle of the engine compartment. It only occurs when I let out on the clutch and stops when I push the clutch in. I'm thinking it is most likely the ISB (input shaft bearing) that is so notorious with these transmissions. I plan to either do the job myself within the next six months, or just replace the transmission with one that has already had this done, as well as replacing the clutch and rear main seal.

Fortunately, that is not the case. When I crank the engine, the green key light does not illuminate at all, so I think the key is successfully communicating with the immobilizer. For the most part, I only see the green key light flashing to remind me to remove the key after I have turned the ignition back from the 'On' setting.

I appreciate the insight and I will search until I find that answer, but at least in the meantime, it won't keep the car from running. And I can always just make my own spacer so-to-speak by using washers.

I will spray some throttle body cleaner into the throttle body and see if it will start.

tn04civiclx

The throttle body cleaner failed to make it start, and I sprayed a generous amount into the throttle body with the straw attached to the spray nozzle (for more controlled spray).

I also confirmed that the fuel pump is sending fuel to the fuel rail. To confirm this, I relieved the fuel pressure, removed the negative battery cable, disconnected the fuel line with the green plastic quick-connect fitting, and double-bagged the end of the line in two quart size ziploc bags. I closed/sealed the bags as tightly as possible, then tied a zip tie around the bags and line nice and tight. Reconnected negative battery cable and turned the key to On several times, each time, hearing the fuel pump running.

I was a bit surprised by the volume of fuel I found in the ziploc bag; only about 1 to 1 1/2 tablespoonfuls of fuel were in the bag.

I'm a bit confused by my results because I was getting spark on all but cylinder #4 and yet, the engine won't start even when I spray throttle body cleaner into the throttle body.

I'll probably retry spraying the throttle body - this time with brake cleaner (because I know that it worked in the past), but I'm not sure where to go from there if the car still won't start

Suggestions? Input?

Thanks,

Philip

ezone

No, your noid light worked.

However, you said it only lit a few times....exactly when were those times? Only in the first 2 seconds of cranking?

IF the cam is far enough out of time,
#1 the PCM shuts off fuel after about 2 seconds so the engine cannot run
#2 it won't be able to run at all when valves are opening and closing at the wrong times. (depending on how far out of time it gets)


No it doesn't have to set any code.

If you want to check it just remove the valve cover, then remove the upper timing belt cover. That's all you need to remove to check cam timing.

Once the upper cover is off the spring can be seen if it is still in place.

Spin the crank around (CCW) to align TDC mark, and verify marks on cam pulley are in the right places, or not.


You don't need the special tool until you know for sure the crank pulley has to come off.

This sounds wrong as well.

You said you replaced the fuel pump, did you get a complete assembly and drop it in the tank?
Or did you get a bare naked pump and have to install it inside the plastic pump housing?

Many people have posted here after installing a pump or filter kit, they didn't get the thing reassembled quite correctly and there is no fuel pressure.

tn04civiclx

I don't recall the exact intervals, but it was something similar to this:

1. Plugged in noid light in cylinder #4 connector, working from left to right. Assistant cranked engine over for 2-5 seconds - no flash
2. Did same with remaining four lights and only one light lit up, and only one time

3. Retried all connectors again, this time from right to left - got a flash on each connector but not always on fist attempt. One or two of the connectors did not cause the noid light to light up until after the 3rd or 4th crank


Is the spring that you are referring to the one which is connected (associated) with the tensioner, or a different one?



I first purchased what is equivalent to the fuel filter for this car, except it is in the tank (not along the chassis or frame) as I'm sure most of you are aware. It is the white cylindrically-shaped plastic top which covers and seals the fuel tank and is referred to as a fuel pump filter. The one I bought is a Beck/Arnley model. I replaced it and while I had the whole assembly removed from the car, I thoroughly cleaned (wiped down) the surfaces and the fuel pressure regulator with clean shop towels. Reassembled everything and put it back into the tank, angling carefully just as the manual says so as to avoid any damage to the float arm.

This did not resolve my issue (the car ran but would still occasionally require that I spray brake cleaner into the throttle body to get it started) and figuring that the car could probably use a new pump and strainer, I purchased and replaced both. Reassembled everything as before and reinstalled the assembly into the tank. The behavior did not change until a week or so later, and here I am - with the car still not starting.

Here are some pictures of the pump assembly fully reassembled:

https://ibb.co/dDYAWQ
https://ibb.co/hzshd5
https://ibb.co/dATzQk
https://ibb.co/jyXFy5


I talked to a guy at Auto Zone Thursday night who said to never use anything but starting fluid, so I bought some and used it and the car almost started a few times, but would never quite start or keep running. Also last night, I did another fuel pressure test (first one since replacing all of those fuel pump components) and I am getting no pressure on the gauge.

I had to remove the fuel line which is connected at the firewall and the other end to the pulsation damper on the fuel rail so that I could connect a length of rubber fuel hose. I teed that in to the pressure gauge and the fuel rail and made sure all of my hose clamps were nice and tight. I started with a test kit from O'Reilly but thought that perhaps it was faulty, so I rented the Auto Zone one (the one I had used before and got 40 pounds of pressure on it) and got the same results (no fuel pressure on the gauge).

I disconnected the negative battery cable as a precaution and removed the access cover to the fuel tank. Unplugged the connector and lined the access well for the fuel pump with a large trash bag and partially wrapped the fuel line at the quick-connect to catch any fuel. When I disconnected the fuel line, a very tiny amount (maybe one drop) of fuel dripped out of the end of the fuel line.

When this all started, it did not seem that mine was a fuel problem, however, now I apparently do have a fuel problem to add to the mix. I checked all of the fuel lines, tracing them from the fuel tank back to where they enter the engine compartment, and I did not see any with any kinks or anything unusual about them - they looked clean and in good condition.

One of the older guys at Auto Zone told me that a bad crank or cam sensor would keep me from getting any spark at all - is this correct?

At this point, I am wondering what could have happened to the fuel system. The relay clicks when the key is turned to 'On' and I hear the pump whirring for those one or two seconds. While I am cranking the car, the relay clicks at regular intervals.

I also don't have a complete understanding of how the fuel system works in this vehicle, specifically what the fuel pressure regulator does and whether or not it could be the cause of my fuel issue.

I have the pump assembly removed once again - are there some specific tests that I can do to verify that my pump does not have any issues? For instance, running the pump in a bucket with gas (and routing the flow back into the bucket) or some similar test to allow me to see the pump in action. Also, how can you test your fuel pressure regulator to ensure it is operating correctly? An employee at Auto Zone said that if you blow into one end, you should not be able to feel the air coming out the other end, that it should actively block the passage - and if you do feel air, the regulator is faulty.

ezone

Right. You installed a brand new problem LOL

I've never broke down a pump from a Civic (Honda original pumps are damn reliable), but it looks very similar to the setup that was under recall in 05-10 Odyssey vans, so here's some errors we learned during that period:

If you had to remove and reassemble the regulator valve into the new assembly, the old pressure regulator was fine but it was easy to get the plastic spacer ring in the wrong place so the larger O ring can't seal....low or no pressure is the result. Same if the small O ring was forgotten or damaged. (from the pics I can't tell if yours is the same design or not)

If you didn't get the o ring and hose completely clipped onto the pump in the lower unit (it's a darn tight fit!)....low or no pressure is the result.

If you want to wear a fire suit you might connect it to 12v and be able to see the leak point holding it only half submerged in a bucket of fuel, but please have someone standing by with the numbers 9 and 1 already dialed on the phone, with trigger finger on the 1 ready for action!
Mistake #2. They won't hire anyone who actually knows too much about cars, so keep that in mind. If they could actually fix cars they wouldn't be pimping parts. Same goes for most tow truck drivers.

Ether can be explosive, it fires more easily than gas, and may cause damage if it kicks the engine backwards. It can blow a starter right off of a small block Chevy engine.
If it backfires ether, your intake manifold is plastic and that could cause a bad day.

If it was gonna run, it should have run on any other spray can of flammable juice.


I thought you said you verified the engine has spark except for one cylinder being questionable.

If CKP dies it wouldn't have any spark at all.
If CMP dies, it will be hard to start but will run with reduced power.
If CKP and CMP are out of sync (mechanical timing error), fuel injectors are disabled at about 2 seconds. (I'm not sure if pump is also turned off or not, never had to figure that part out...and that might be your clicking relay too)

If out of time by only a tooth or two which the PCM detected and shut it down, you can unplug the CMP sensor and it should run again with even worse reduced power.....but if it's jumped time more than a couple teeth it may not be able to run at all or if it is still loose and jumping teeth you can bend a pile of valves and have a really bad day on top of everything else.
Odd..... which relay specifically?


You still haven't pulled the top timing cover to verify crank-cam timing is correct?
The only spring in question is for the tensioner pulley.

tn04civiclx

On mine, there is one o-ring which is situated on the regulator's outlet pipe; the new one that I picked up yesterday has it preinstalled. There is not a plastic spacer ring that I can see, and the fuel pump hose does not have/use an o-ring, it is a press-fit with a locking tab on either side to keep things nice and snug.

Is it possible to do this same test in a bucket of water instead? After all, it is really just a liquid pump, or would running water through it cause damage to the strainer and/or pump?

Not exactly sure what you meant, but what I was saying was that IF my issue was the CKP sensor, I wouldn't be getting spark at all. Another way of saying, "It looks like my CKP sensor is OK because if it wasn't I wouldn't be getting spark on either coil". From what you say about the CMP sensor, it should still start, but would run with reduced power. I will test it tonight with the connector unplugged.

In the meantime, last night, I did a compression test of the cylinders, and from those results, only two cylinders have compression within specs (128 psi which builds up quickly and consistently within about two seconds). The other two cylinders only give me something like 30 psi, and it happens gradually and never goes past 30 psi. I will re-test when I get home tonight, and will squirt some oil into the cylinders with low compression and re-test. The manual says that if the pressure builds up after adding oil, the piston rings are worn.

I removed the valve cover and upper timing belt cover last night, and the belt looks fine to me; looks like it has proper tension. Also, I can see the auto-tensioner spring and from what I can see, it appears to also be fine (but I could be wrong about it).

The relay I am referring to, is the one listed as 'PGM-FI Relay No. 2', or the blue one under the glove box. The other two relays are brown (immediately to the right of the blue one, and designated as PGM-FI Relay No. 1) and black (to the far right of the blue and brown relays), and the clicking seems to be coming from the blue relay. I'll try the stethoscope method tonight to confirm which relay is doing the clicking. Is there any better method for this?

Due to the way that Honda put the one side mount stud partially in line with the camshaft bolt, it was difficult to get the proper torque on it to get it to turn CCW far enough to find TDC. After many tries (and a partially nicked/marred bolt head later, GRRR...), I chose to instead just use the starter method and cranked it carefully until the 'UP' letters on the camshaft pulley lined up almost perfectly vertical. I also visually verified that the top of piston no. 1 appears to be as high as it can go (TDC). I'll try to see if I can get some pics posted later.

When I get home from work tonight, I will reassemble the fuel pump assembly with the new fuel pressure regulator, using some clean engine oil on the o-ring to ensure a nice, snug fit with the hose. Once it's reinstalled, I will once again test the fuel pressure. If still low/nonexistent, I will know that I still have a fuel problem.

In addition, I will work on testing the wiring to the coil connector for cylinder 4, to see if it possibly has an open circuit somewhere in the wiring. That is one thing among many, that the Honda service manual spells out in great detail, where my Haynes manual does not.

ezone

So I bet it's missing the O ring.

Click this TSB link: http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SB/A14-032.PDF
Scroll to step 11 and check out the pic of the pumps fuel line connector and its O ring (circled as #2 in the TSB).
Also see the images of the pressure regulator assembly on that particular version of the pump assembly.


In theory maybe, but you'd have a helluva time getting all traces of water out of it afterwards....there are a lot of hiding places in it.
Correct IMO. The questionable #4 spark comment came from your line about spark in the first post.

128 is really not a valid number. I totally expect to see 180 PSI or higher when I use my tools and methods.
30 is bad bad bad. You have a major problem, and a place to start for figuring out (what probably was) the original problem.

Do not turn the engine using the cam pulley bolt.

Turn the steering all the way left (or just remove the left front tire), take down the splash shield covering the crank pulley, use a 19mm socket on the crank pulley bolt to move/rotate the crankshaft. Timing and TDC marks are on the crank pulley and align to a notch on the lower timing cover.

tn04civiclx

I see what you mean, so in the case of the Odyssey fuel pump, there is an o-ring which must be installed at that point. You might be right. There is an exploded view of the components of the fuel pump assembly on page 11-139 of the linked Honda service manual, on the right side of the page. All o-rings are indicated by the letter 'J', and I see one which looks like it would go on between the fuel hose and the outlet from the fuel pump. I'll have to check the old fuel filter for confirmation, and I will probably call the local Honda parts department to see if they can supply me with the o-ring.

https://sabercathost.com/dfgT/civic_...aintenance.pdf

I replaced the fuel pressure regulator last night, and once it was all back together and reinstalled in the tank, I tested for fuel by removing the line from the pulsation damper on the fuel rail, and inserting it into an empty water bottle. When I turned the key to 'On', fuel gushed into the bottle during the two seconds that the relay supplied power to the pump. However, when I connected the fuel pressure gauge and attempted to pressurize the system, a loud whooshing sound was heard shortly after the whirring of the pump, as if fuel was rushing back into the tank. I tested this several times, and it occurred consistently. Also, the fuel pressure gauge registered zero pressure (the needle didn't even move). I may ask the local Honda dealership about this and see what they say. The Honda service manual merely says to replace the fuel filter and the pressure regulator (both of which have been replaced already).

I do not recall the exact pressure, I just noted that it jumped up to at least (but probably higher) than the 128 psi listed in the specs of my Haynes manual. I'm curious to see what specs are listed in the Honda service manual.

I realize now how dumb it was of me to try and turn the engine by the camshaft pulley bolt - attempting to move a much larger gear via a much smaller one is rarely a good idea.
Last night, I jacked up the driver side, removed the wheel and moved the splash shield out of the way, and put my 19 mm socket on the crankshaft. I turned it CCW until the 'UP' letters on the camshaft where straight up and down (as much as I could tell). I then compared that with where the pointer on the lower timing belt cover was lined up with the crankshaft pulley. From my results, it does not appear to me that the belt has slipped any teeth. Here is a short video of me finding TDC.


The alignment may not appear to be very accurate due to the angle of trying to get a good shot, nonetheless, the indented yellow mark (listed as white in the Haynes manual, and as the 'TDC' mark) is lined up perfectly with the pointer on the lower timing belt cover as the manual says it should be.

ezone

And that fitting is one tight ***** to assemble, so if yours clicked right together without effort, I bet the O ring is missing.


I doubt the dealer can supply it, it's not listed as a separate item in the Honda parts catalog. (Honda only sells it as a one-piece assembly: pump/housing/filter/regulator are one single part)

If you still have it, just use the O ring out of the original unit.
Not sure why this would be necessary, we already know you have no fuel pressure. Take it apart and fix this problem.

Yes the manual tells you to do these things, but it doesn't tell you what to do if it doesn't work afterward (miss that darn O ring LOL) and it doesn't take into account that Honda doesn't even sell any of those pieces separately for most of the cars.
The exact compression test values of ALL cylinders provides information of far more diagnostic value than a reading from only single cylinder.

IOW a single cylinder test is quite literally all but worthless. See the bold line below


That doesn't really matter IRL. Too many variables. I'm telling you real world experience using known good test equipment.
If I run a compression test on this engine and found only 128 across all 4, I consider that a huge problem.


FWIW it's listed as 135 in the ESI.
If you have an engine with 200 PSI on 3 cylinders and one cylinder only has 135, that's a freekin huge problem.

I can't tell in your video, but you are supposed to use the single notch in the pulley for TDC so make sure you got that right. (The other group of 3 notches is for ignition timing.)



Okay now that you aligned the crank pulley to TDC, where are the timing marks on the cam gear?
The two slash marks in the edge of the cam gear should be even with the surface of the head as shown here:

tn04civiclx

I'll check the old filter for the o-ring. I'm hoping that the local Honda dealership carries it as its own part. I was able to buy just the four upper injector o-rings that I needed, so maybe it's the same deal with the o-ring for the fuel pump.

Between work and church, I was too tired to do anything last night, but I'll do the compression test again tonight and post the values of all of the cylinders. When you are testing compression, do you just keep cranking until the pressure stops rising?

On my phone and on my computer, I paused the video near the end when the crank pulley comes into view. I then double-tapped/double-clicked the image, allowing me to zoom in more on the video to the point where the pointer can clearly be seen pointing to the TDC mark.

I reviewed the full video that I took and I can see that the white marks are indeed on either side of the pulley. I will check this again tonight and make sure that each mark lines up with the top edge of the cylinder head.

ezone

That I do.


If the battery is even remotely marginal then hook up a battery charger so cranking RPM stays consistent and fast throughout the testing

Wedge gas pedal to the floor (so throttle blade stays wide open)
remove all 4 spark plugs
install comp gauge in #1 hole, place gauge where you can see it during cranking

crank the engine and

watch how much the gauge rises with each "puff" and I mentally note that (mental comparison of all 4 as I go),

and keep on cranking it until the gauge stops climbing,

then keep on cranking a few more puffs just to make sure it's really reached the absolute maximum it is gonna reach.

Write the cylinder number and test result on paper.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

tn04civiclx

This is exactly what I did, except for hooking up the battery charger. These are my results (4 attempts on each cylinder, cranking a long time until the pressure quit rising):

Cylinder 1 (pressure jumped right up to the listed psi):
170 psi
170 psi
170 psi
170 psi

Cylinder 2 (pressure started at the indicated value [60] and built up in increments to the final value [110]):
60-90-100-110 psi
60-90-100-110 psi
60-90-100-110 psi
60-90-100-110 psi

Cylinder 3 (started at 90 psi, built up incrementally to 155):
90-120-150-155 psi
90-120-150-155 psi
90-120-150-155 psi
90-120-150-155 psi

Cylinder 4 (on first attempt, started at 30, built up to 60; on all three subsequent attempts, started at 40, built up to 60):
30-60 psi
40-50-60 psi
40-50-60 psi
40-50-60 psi


Regarding the fuel pump, I removed the whole assembly from the tank again and disconnected the hose which was connected to the pump itself (not the regulator). I oiled up the o-ring which came with the fuel pump filter and pressed it into the hose opening, and it would not press down far enough to lock it back together. When looking at the plastic on the body of the pump where the hose connects, there is a built-in plastic part which look like it would take the place of an o-ring, and there are four stops molded into it as well. I took some pictures to better explain what I saw:











The pictures I took were of various angles, and various states of being connected together again. This was to show that there is no possible space for an o-ring to fit, and also to show the built-in plastic o-ring-looking part with the four plastic stops.

I think I also need to rule out a bad ECU/ECM for the problem that I am having, so hopefully I can go pull a few from pull-a-part tomorrow.

ezone

PCM? Forget it. You have a serious compression problem.

Plus the newly installed fuel pressure problems.




I sure can't figure out why I can't see your photos or links, I had to retrieve them from the email notification...

Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...RtTlBVd1dMUFZV
Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...dlQUlPcjFqWV9z
Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...FtbnR5MWFYZGZN
Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...F4R1VVdU41Z2ZN
Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...AzOU9ZbmJlUzZJ
Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...cxaXFaaFlMcmFZ
Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...9zMWJISXEySFBv
Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...x4MVljOGVoUzIw
Image: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...hZMjg2Z3lPVjkw


I see what you're talking about....but it still appears to me that there is no way for the two chunks of plastic to seal by themselves.

Somewhere in the mess you need to find out why this pump and filter assembly can't generate fuel pressure and resolve it.


So the NEW unit came with a NEW O ring?

The ORIGINAL unit HAD an O ring seal. How did it fit together?
I'm thinking the new O ring must be installed the new unit exactly the same as the original one was assembled.


Yeah it's a tight fit and a struggle to get the fitting snapped together on the Odyssey, I'm sure this isn't any different.