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Doesn't it seem strange that the compression problem suddenly cropped up? I had zero loss of power when I drove it - not even once did it seem sluggish or underpowered. Is it possible that all of the fuel that has been introduced into the cylinder, has washed the oil off of the cylinder walls, thus, reducing cylinder pressure?

Yeah it is very strange - I used the standard IMG tags, yet it refuses to display the images.

I examined the original fuel pump filter and there was not an o-ring in the hose connector. I also recall that I disassembled the fuel pump assembly over an open, clean, white trash bag (to ensure no contaminants) on a flat, level surface and the only o-ring that was present, was the one on the fuel pressure regulator hose connector. Yes, the new fuel pump filter came with two o-rings: a smaller green one and a larger brown one, however, no o-ring was found in the hose connector of the original filter when it was disconnected from the pump.

I have yet to hear anyone on here who has confirmed that there is in fact, an o-ring, by removing their own fuel pump for inspection. All that I have heard, is that the Odyssey has one, so the Civic must also have one.

Also, would I be getting fuel flowing into the water bottle if I had no fuel pressure? As I stated earlier, I am getting consistent fuel flow into an empty water bottle.

There are a few reasons why I am suspecting the computer:

1. No fuel sprays out of the injectors while the car is cranked over

2. I get no spark on cylinder 4 (could be an open circuit in the wiring going back to the computer, but the car would still start on 3 cylinders anyway)

3. Spraying fuel from a can (brake cleaner, starting fluid, etc) into the throttle body does not cause the car to start (how can a car not start when fuel is introduced directly into the throttle body, unless the computer is not allowing it to start by some way or another?)

4. (and this is something I meant to include in my original post for this thread) The entire cruise control circuit stopped working at the same time that the no start issue began. The light will not even come on on the cruise control button when it is pushed and clicked in. The cruise control worked flawlessly when I drove it home right after buying the car, but it has not worked since.

 
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Compression doesn't lie. You can repeat with wet test (one tablespoon of oil in cylinder) to isloate compression ring leak.

Not sure if Ezone mentioned it but, he probably did...check mechanical timing..timing may have jumped/skipped teeth.

 
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I have yet to hear anyone on here who has confirmed that there is in fact, an o-ring, by removing their own fuel pump for inspection.

Well it looks like I did in fact, find one person who shows that there is an O-ring for the fuel pump connector:



That picture is from this post:

How to: Fuel strainer and fuel filter replacement.


I guess I know what I'll be doing tonight...

 
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Does oil on disptick smell like gas? Does it have leaking fuel injectors? Are spark plugs wet with fuel?

If possible fuel wash of pistons is your concern then:
1) Disconnect fuel injector harness from injectors
2) Push gas pedal to floor (WOT) and crank the engine several times
3) optional: oil change if you feel there is fuel in oil
4) optional: remove spark plugs and blow compressed air in to dry cylinders
5) with injector harness still disconnected and battery fully charged perform another dry and wet (oil) compression test.

 
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Not strange. Once you figure out WHY it's low, then you can figure on what might have caused it.

The compression test doesn't lie, but that test alone can't tell you what part inside the engine is causing it to be so low..

Next step is leakdown testing.


See Mr Dongs post above: Teaspoonfulls of oil could prove or disprove that theory.


Could YOU see the links last night? I couldn't see anything at all in your forum post last night, but I could see the URL after I C&P those into my post.

NOW I go back and I can see the images embedded in your post, I assume you fixed the img tags since last night?


That alone should tell you, there's a reason both are in the box.


Yep.

You can have volume without being able to build sufficient pressure. Because of leakage in the pressurized side.

There must be fuel pressure before they can spray anything.

Fix pump problems first then recheck.

No answer without testing to figure out why. Continuity and signal checks would be in order.

The compression numbers say it might attempt to fire on two of the cylinders, but there would be two cylinders that can't contribute much (if any) to running, and that may be enough to make it not start at all.

That's my theory for the moment anyway.
The light in the main switch is a small incandescent bulb, they do go out sooner or later, but that alone doesn't make the system quit. Make sure that main switch is pushed in, not sticking out.

Fuse #4, 10, in dash fusebox
Fuse #7 in engine compartment

And yeah there's a few cruise items that rely on the ECM to be working.



On that subject,
You should realize that you can't just plug in another ECM and expect it to work.
Any replacement ECM will need to have the immobilizer programmed before it can allow the engine to run, and that would mean either a tow to a dealership (or finding a shop that can program immobilizer on Hondas) or getting a capable locksmith (with the right equipment to program a Honda immobilizer) to make a housecall.


I think there's an earlier few posts where we decided that was okay right now.

Yeah. How's that working out for you?

 
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Thanks for the suggestions, Mega, I will try this tonight and report back with my results. I didn't notice that oil on the dipstick smelled like gas before, and I just changed the oil two weeks before the issue occurred, so I think the oil is OK. I have never seen the fuel injectors leak (have never seen them spray either for that matter), however, the last time I tested them, I was having problems with fuel pressure, so that will have to be confirmed.

When you say to use teaspoonfuls of oil added to the cylinder, do you just pour the oil into the spark plug tube and let it run into the cylinder, or do you use a tube of some sort to keep from getting oil in the tubes?

 
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Yes, I found in another post where a user had his images hosted via tinypic.com, so I re-uploaded the images and changed the URLs on the tags, and now they show.

I removed the fuel pump assembly again last night, disconnected the fuel pump hose and installed the O-ring on the fuel pump side of the connection. It was a tight fit, but with the oil that I put on the O-ring beforehand, it was considerably easier. I notice now that the pump is quite a bit noisier than before - is this expected since it is not an OEM Honda fuel pump motor?

FYI for anyone else who needs to do this: Be sure to install the O-ring on the plastic neck of the fuel pump, and not inserted into the hose connector. When you insert the O-ring into the hose connector instead, it is virtually impossible to get it to seat properly and have the locking tabs engage.

Is there a documented procedure for how to conduct continuity and signal checks on the injector harnesses?

Even so, the cruise should still activate even with a burned out bulb, correct?

I checked all of my fuses just last night (under hood as well as under dash, driver side); none are burned out.

Is there a documented procedure on here how reprogramming of the immobilizer can be accomplished? If all else fails, does anyone have a ballpark figure on how much a Honda dealer would charge to reprogram an ECM? Thanks.

 
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Directly into spark plug tube..it will work it's way down to top of piston.

 
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If it's now louder than it was yesterday, I expect it is making more noise simply because it's actually having to work building pressure instead of freewheeling.

Have you taken pressure measurements yet? Or checked injector spray?

I would tell you to check for procedures in a good service manual...

but I rarely use trouble trees and flow charts. I prefer use my own approach to electrical diagnosis whenever possible......but I can always fall back on any published procedures if need be.

In my world I'd simply check a wiring diagram to see that each coil uses 3 wires: 12v power, ground, and a trigger........
then since there are 3 good units that work correctly right next to the one that doesn't, I'll use a working unit as the guide or working example...........
I'd take measurements on a working unit and compare those to the inoperative unit.

IF i were to discover at least one of the 3 wires for the inop coil has an incorrect (or at least non-matching) measurement, then I have a definite direction to pursue as far as looking for a (suspected) wiring problem or signal problem.

Powers and grounds for all of the coils do not originate in the PCM.
Only the 'trigger' for each individual ignition coil originates in the PCM

If the problem lies in the trigger wire or its lack of signal, then I can follow the wiring diagrams to perform continuity checks from point A to point B as I see fit.

Bulb burned out in the main switch would have no effect on operation other than many people can't tell if it is turned on or not solely by how far the button sticks out.

Brake light failure (and LED brake light installs on some cars) can adversely affect cruise operation though.



You cannot DIY this. This can only be accomplished using a proper scan tool.

Call your local Honda dealership and ask.
I'd expect a one hour labor fee, but each dealer shop is free to set their own prices so it can vary a lot. (several years ago my dealer used to charge about half of what the other closest dealerships charged, but now they are all about equally price)


Then call locksmith shop and inquire....and if they don't have the necessary equipment to do Honda immobilizer programming, ask if they can direct you to another locksmith who does (or might) have it.

 
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I fashioned a funnel from a larger plastic drinking straw and some parchment paper which I rolled into a funnel shape and taped it securely to the straw. I carefully inserted the end of the straw through the spark plug hole to help direct the flow of the oil better. I still wound up with partially oily spark plug tubes, but not as much as I would have had otherwise.

After pouring about three teaspoons-worth of oil into the two cylinders with very low compression readings (cylinders 2 and 4), I am consistently getting 210 psi. I repeated the procedure for the other two cylinders (1 and 3) and continue to consistently get 210 psi.

And yet, the car still will not start...

 
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I took back the fuel pressure gauge that I borrowed from Auto Zone, however, from the volume and force of fuel being sprayed into an empty water bottle, I can tell that my pressure is back up (and probably where it should be, between 40 and 47 psi).

As for the injectors, I tested for fuel spray last night with a piece of cardboard, but could not tell for sure that it was fuel on the cardboard beneath each injector, or just oil smudges from the tips of the injectors.

At this point, I'm just going to bite the bullet and pay to rent a towing dolly so that I can tow the car to the Honda dealership. They only charge $50 for a full diagnostic (which gets rolled into the repair cost, should I choose to have them repair it), and should the computer need to be reprogrammed, that is also just $50, so the diagnostic fee would actually cover the programming.

I don't have any brake light failure - all lights operate as they should, so it's not the brake light switch.

If the diagnostic fee were an exorbitant amount, I might look into some more of my own troubleshooting, but at this point, I'm just ready to find out EXACTLY what is keeping it from starting so I can go about fixing it and get it back on the road to enjoy that sweet MPG again.

 
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Holy crap that's scary cheap.

Make sure their top rocket scientist is on the job, not some average parts hanger that's gonna fire the parts cannon as soon as he pulls a code...and miss a ton.
(good luck)

If at all possible, talk directly to the tech? I know when it comes to technical details I usually need to hear it right from the one talking, not from the service writer who doesn't know a light bulb from a windshield wiper.

You might even Write a note to the tech (include a phone number you will answer if he needs more info/ask questions) and leave it on the seat (make it obvious) detailing what you know about the problem(s) it has, such as

What happened first---bought 2 months ago, was ok for a month then no start one morning, then started a couple times later on, then low power or whatever and died bla bla bla......whatever happened

What's been observed------you've seen consistent spark on 3 cylinders but no or inconsistent spark on the 4th, and any other details

What's been checked and replaced .....you've changed the pump, swapped coils around, whatever you've done including dumping oil in the cylinders for the wet compression tests

 
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Yes it is, and as a HUGE answer to prayer, the car is running again!

I left work early on Thursday afternoon to go the man mall (as my brother calls it), the local Pull-A-Part (www.pullapart.com) and got some parts for my Civic from an '01 Civic. Among those parts was the braided metal grounding strap (the main one for the engine block) even though it seemed more corroded than my own, and the two bolts used to mount it as well (nice and shiny compared to my old, partially rusted ones).

I didn't install the strap right away, thinking I would keep it for a spare, and I completed the compression test as noted earlier. I still had everything removed from the throttle body from when I tested for fuel injector spray, and I needed to get all of it back together so that Honda would have a whole car to diagnose my issue. I went ahead and swapped the grounding strap on the off-chance that mine was faulty (despite how thoroughly I cleaned it with steel wool and baking soda and water solution earlier), deciding that I would swap it back if the result was still the same. I also used the bolts that I took with the strap, adding anti seize to the threads before installation.

I also had yet to test for spark again since everything else I had done earlier, and I started with cylinder 4 to confirm my earlier results of no spark. I inserted one of my old spark plugs in the boot and laid it next to the head of the bolt which attaches the resonator to the engine block in the vicinity of the grounding strap. My father-in-law watched for me as I cranked the engine. He saw spark consistently with it, but as a bonus, the car was acting like it wanted to start (for the first time since I started having the no-start problem)!

Has either of you ever heard of all but cylinder 4 having spark due to a faulty grounding strap?

Anyway, I quickly reattached the coil to the #4 spark plug and it fired right up on the first crank! Hallelujah, my problem was fixed and Pull-A-Part didn't even charge me for the grounding strap - they only charged me for the injectors and coil connectors and wiring that I removed from a car.

I followed the procedures in my Haynes manual (Chapter 5) for the idle learning procedure:

1. With all accessories off (power windows, climate controls, radio, rear window defroster, lights, windshield wipers, etc), start the car and hold the accelerator down enough to hold the engine at 3000 RPM until the radiator fan comes on (or until the engine coolant reaches 194 F [but how do you easily test that?]).

2. Let off the accelerator and allow the car to idle for at least 5 minutes (not counting the intervals during which the radiator fans run).

In my case, the fans would shut off for 1 minute, then kick on for about 15 to 20 seconds, and repeat this process nonstop. I set a stopwatch on my phone and lapped it each time the fans came on, until it built up 6 minutes of [fanless] idle.

After this, I verified my tire pressure (30 psi for front and rear according to the label on the driver side door frame) and took it for a test drive, which was smooth as silk. Because the car had sat generally in the same spot for over a month, I firmly applied the brakes several times to polish any corrosion off of the rotors.

I also soaked my old strap in CLR for a good five minutes, then thoroughly rinsed it with fresh water and shook all the excess water off before hanging it out to bake dry in the hot sun. I'll keep it as a spare in case the CLR did a good enough job with the corrosion (I'll test it at a later time).

Big thanks to ezone and Megalo for all of their insight - I have learned a TON from this thread (and this forum as a whole) and this experience with my Civic.

In summary, mine was basically a no spark issue which was remedied by replacing the engine block grounding strap.

 
Rep Power: 517

Great!
Never heard of it, and I've seen them drive in fine with that strap broken in half or completely missing..........but if true then that makes me think

Maybe you should also inspect/clean/wire brush the connections and fasteners for the battery neg cable attachment points, where it connects to the body and attaches to the transmission.....if there's a ground problem there then the engine is gonna have to rely heavily on the braided strap up top to handle all of its ground current.




If it's not blazing hot in your area, the radiator fans running once each minute sounds odd.......May not be any problem but it just seems like an unusually short/frequent cycle interval. You sure the HVAC was shut off completely?
Did you check- radiator level is completely full?

 
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I may have spoken too soon...
I drove my car to work yesterday morning, stopping at the local Honda dealership to pick up the license plate bolts that I needed, and it ran great. I made two stops: at the gas station and at the Honda dealership. Each time, the car started right up without any hesitation. I parked it in the parking garage here at work and it wouldn't start when I was leaving yesterday afternoon.

Back to square one it seems... However, this time I am not getting spark on *any* spark plugs, whereas before, I was getting spark on all but Cylinder 4. The negative battery cable was looking pretty green and corroded where it attaches to the brake line bracket (or whatever attachment point is at the opposite end from the end with the battery post clamp), so I unbolted the cable completely from all three points, and used my battery brush to get it looking shiny again. Even so, the copper doesn't quite have the shiny luster that new copper has - it is a dingy copper color (if that makes sense). I also brushed the metal loop in the middle as well as the copper wiring that is exposed at that point where the loop clamps onto the wiring, and the bolt itself.

I was planning on ordering a new battery ground cable anyway because the old one looks so corroded, but I was looking to find the best source for it. Here are the ones I have found so far:
-RockAuto (but not Honda OEM from what I can tell/no picture)
-Honda OEM cable from OEM Part Source (Honda Part # 32600-S5A-910)
-O'Reilly Auto Parts (local pickup)

HVAC was definitely turned off as well as all switches, *****, etc, and I even made sure to put the driver side power window down before turning the key back off and then back on to ensure that the window motor wasn't using any power when I completed the idle learning procedure.

Regarding the engine coolant, as far as I can tell, the coolant level is where it needs to be (when I take off the cap, I can see the coolant right in the bottom of the filler neck). On that note, am I the only one who doesn't understand how you're supposed to check the coolant level in the reservoir considering that it has that long neck down to the bottom where the MIN and MAX lines are, and is covered by the splash shields?

 
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I went to O'Reilly and purchased the BWD battery ground cable (linked above and here) and installed it on my lunch break, to no avail. The car still will not start and it is behaving exactly as it did before I changed the cable.

I picked up a remote starter on my way in to work this morning to make things easier, and I will check for both: spark and voltage on the wiring harness while the engine cranks over. Once I have the results, I will post them here.

 
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Crank sensor: Was the connector taken off the sensor during timing belt or any other work? Do the wiring terminals have any corrosion evidence?

Just a thought.

 
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You nailed it on the head, ezone. To answer your first question, no, the connector was never unplugged - the problem is that the sensor has gone bad. After I re-did the compression tests (good compression on all cylinders), I also tested the coil connectors and the 31P ECM connector signal wires. All the 31P connector tests were valid. These were the results of my tests on each of the three wires on the four coil connectors:

PIN 1: Battery voltage (~ 11-some volts) with ignition in On position - II)
PIN 2: Good continuity (no open loop) on each GND wire (also with ignition in On position - II)
PIN 3: No voltage on either signal wire while cranking engine over (or while ignition is held in Start position - III)

The Honda Service Manual (page 4-23) says to replace the coil if voltage is present, however, if no voltage is present, repair the open wire condition in the signal wires:




At this point, I had the car towed to the local Honda dealership so that they could run their diagnostics and perform the multi-point inspection. Their initial assessment was that there was a pinched wire somewhere, however, they called me back a few hours later to say that it has a bad crank sensor. This was determined when the car started after unplugging the crank sensor connector.

So all of that to say, ezone, that you are correct in your assessment of a bad crank sensor. Now...where is the best place/what is the best part number to use for buying a new crank sensor? Should I go Honda OEM or would it be just as effective to replace with an aftermarket part?

 
Rep Power: 517

Replacement of the crank sensor (CKP) involves removing the crank pulley and lower timing cover. I would not stick anyoldthing in there just to save a buck.

Can you DIY that?
Can you find the original brand of sensor any easier than getting it from Honda?

Honda part# 37500-PLC-015
$117 MSRP, but cheaper online looks like around 78-80ish

Many dealers sell parts online at wholesale prices.
Here's a few to check, search for more if you wish

hondapartsnow
hondapartscheap
bkhondaparts
hondaautomotiveparts
hondapartsconnection
.com/

 
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I am confident that I can DIY this as I did the same when I replaced the water pump and timing belt on a '91 Civic LX some years back.

Thank you for posting the actual part number, that is very helpful! I found the same part number on hondapartsnow, and was able to find it for $45 shipped from ebay. I especially like that one of the reviews clearly states that the part was identical to the original and works flawlessly. On top of that, there is a 60-day money back guarantee.

For removal of the crankshaft pulley, I found for $14 shipped, and it has a 90-day money back guarantee. I also have a nice, long 1/2" drive cheater (breaker) bar that I purchased for this purpose and others, so I should have plenty of leverage. If I don't have enough with that breaker bar, I can always use a length of pipe as well.

 
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That's way below dealers cost. How is that seller doing that so cheap in genuine packages?

 
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I'm not sure but the packaging and part look identical. I am having an issue with getting the power steering pump belt off (one nut has become rounded off [from all of my attempts at removal], despite not having any corrosion on it) - should I start a new thread for that or continue posting to this one?

 
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Chisel and hammer?
Check around 4:45