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Well, I think it's time to start a thread about this one. I've got a 2005 Civic LX 5-spd, 102K miles. I've had it a few months, and this has come up twice - I crank the car for a few seconds, but it doesn't start (I don't want to hold it too long and burn out the starter, although I have been holding it a little longer). In both cases, after another try or two (most recently, I turned it off, waited a minute, then tried again), the engine starts running at a super low RPM, sputters a bit, and then comes up to idle (a little higher if cold, normal enough) and runs fine. Always cranks at a normal speed, and the battery tests fine.

After the first time this happened, I replaced the battery (which was 8 years old anyway) with a new one (Honda brand), and I also started turning the key to ON, waiting for the fuel pump to pressurize, then starting. Which definitely seems to help, except that it failed to start (second time total) this morning. Car had last been driven half an hour earlier. When I restarted it a little after the incident, it fired up just fine.

The weather was fairly moderate in both cases. The first time, the car had been parked for a few hours before I got in it again. Second time, parked for half an hour.

Any ideas?

Edit: Before I forget, I heard some theories about the immobilizer. I dunno, that seems like a funny thing to cause sputter-starts. Though the key I was using was one I had made/programmed later. I just switched to the original key (it shipped with 2 + valet, all but one were lost somehow), not sure if that'll do anything.

And when the car is running, it runs perfectly. I never run the gas tank below ~1/4 either - actually, it was mostly full when I had the issue today.

Edit: And before I forget, I should mention that a small independent shop did most of the 110K maintenance before I got the car. Timing belt, head gasket, etc. However, I do NOT know if the spark plugs were changed (I suspect not) - they didn't explicitly say they did. On the other hand, the guys at autozone figured that the car would run horribly if the sparks were bad enough to cause issues starting. On the other hand, I found someone on a forum saying this fixed their issue. (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/po...ex.htm?t=39411 and https://www.reddit.com/r/Cartalk/com...slow_to_start/)

 
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does it start fine when cold?

is this only happening when trying to start a warm engine?

 
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It consistently takes a little longer to start when cold (ex. first thing in the morning). Same thing as my mom's '11 CR-V, normal enough, though that car starts faster (fewer cranks) in general. That said, when I had the issue today, I'd been stopped at a grocery store for half an hour. The temp dial on the car said it had cooled down. (Was definitely at normal operating temp when I parked, right in the middle of the dial as usual.) Keep in mind that sputter-starting has only happened twice in total over the course of the few months I've had the car, though I'm worried that there's some deeper underlying issue here.

At this point, I'm wondering about the spark plugs and fuel pump.

 
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I'm also reading stuff about the main relay causing issues. Also heard about bad grounds. Ideas?

 
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The usual max is 15 seconds cranking, then a full minute rest to cool down before trying again.


I might SWAG toss a fuel pump relay at that (PGMFI MAIN RELAY #2). Gonna be tough to prove a problem unless it quits completely long enough to diagnose and test.

 
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Yeah, I've heard 15 seconds many times before - though even that feels uncomfortably long in this case.

And OK... you're saying the fuel pump relay, others are implying the pump itself. It almost seems like the car is hesitant to start if I turn it on, wait a minute (not just the usual 2 seconds for the fuel pump), and then try to start. Hmm.

Looks like the relay itself is fairly cheap/easy to do. Speaking of which, what do you think about this relay (http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...3-1630955.html) and this pump? (http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sk...p/M314501.html) Assuming I end up needing to do those, that is. Supposed to be basically the OEM part, debranded or something.


And ooh, well this is interesting. I finally plugged my OBDII reader into this car, and found a fault:
"P0325 - Powertrain
Knock Sensor 1 Circuit (Bank 1 or Single Sensor)"

Hard to say if I noticed any knocking or not - I just assumed it was a bit of lugging due to me letting up the clutch a little too fast. (Still fairly new to this, though I've had it for 2-3 months now.) Maybe that's not entirely user error. And I wonder if that's what triggered the random check engine light a while back - it popped up almost immediately when I got back in the car after stopping for half an hour on an I-5 drive, stayed on, and went away when I refueled the car. Haven't seen the light since. Or, maybe that's unrelated - Torque says the P0325 error is a "current fault".

I'm still tempted to do the sparks though, if only because I'm not confident that they were changed, and it's time... No idea if this causing any problems though.

 
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that was my initial thinking,

no harm in checking them,

also clean your battery terminals

 
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OK - once it stops raining, I'll start with that. I could've sworn I cleaned the terminals when I swapped the battery a month or two ago though. And oh, come to think of it - I put an aux adapter on the stock stereo, and there's a slight ground loop when my phone is plugged into that and a 12V adapter. Hmm, this could be why....

 
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it does not take a lot to have very severe effects on the electrical system,

even the smallest amount of corrosion, a slightly loose battery terminal/cable connection, a rusted or loose ground wire,

clean the battery posts and connectors with baking soda and water, make sure they are spotless and dry before reconnecting,

check all major grounding points, make sure they are clean and rust free,

battery to frame/engine etc,

also check the ground strap from the frame to the engine at the front on top of the rad area

even if this does not solve your current problem, it could prevent other problems in the future

 
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Hmm, some people were warning me that there's a chance of seizing onto the heads/damaging them when changing the spark plugs, and saying to use anti-seize compound. On the other hand, people on youtube show it (for these cars anyway) as a simple matter of remove them with a wrench, insert new ones, use a torque wrench if possible, and you're done. No compound whatsoever. What's the deal here?

 
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Will you use NGK or DENSO plugs? (OEM)

Go to the NGK website and read up on their installation instructions, you should find they do not recommend anti-seize on the threads......
....but then if you read in the HONDA service manual they DO say to use anti-seize.

Go figure.



NGK plug threads are nickel plated so they are not supposed to need anything extra. (I assume similar from the Denso camp, but I don't think I've ever read it in print.)

The only time I really see stuck plug problems is when a plug was installed too loose and carbon creeps up the threads.
I don't remember having to deal with real stuck plugs (due to thread galling) in over a decade.




There's probably more or bigger chance for Joe Average to screw it up bad if you use it. You can overtighten and snap the plug off pretty easy, or you can glop too much compound on and cause firing problems.



I install both ways, it just depends on my mood. LOL

 
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I was gonna get the NGK's (PZFR6F-11) - much easier to find than the Densos listed in the manual. Not sure if they simply made a new equivalent model, though I'd like to stay stock if possible. And every website, store, and cat on the planet seems to be hellbent on advertising different aftermarket ones to me.

Based on the amazon reviews, it looks like everyone's buying those NGK's for various Hondas. Pregapped (1.1mm) and everything. So surely their suggestions couldn't be too far off.

You know what, if it's easy to screw up by using it, I think I'll skip it this time around. First car, first time I've done this, etc. Should I do anything to clean off the socket it goes into? Coffee filters? (I use those on thermal compound in electronics - they don't drop lint all over the place. You don't want to scratch anything though.)

I do have a torque wrench handy. Just need to get some extensions, and hopefully this'll work...


In the meantime, I'm also going to replace the knock sensor (ODBII error). Is there really a wire on the Civic's one? http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine...4%2c5;et=2%2c3) Youtube videos for other Hondas just show a little screw/bolt like thing.

 
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A very little bit of high temp anti-sleeze goes a long way. I started using anti-seize around 15 years ago on stainless hardware when the prints call for it, so I have it can in my tool kit. I use it on the plugs because I have it easily available. If not I wouldn't bother.

My upstream o2 sensor (NTK) came with anti-seize already on the threads. IMO they globbed it on pretty good. I was tempted to wipe some off, but I didn't.

I've never used a torque wrench on my spark plugs. I've never installed one too loose, either. I believe in a certain amount of mechanic's feel. Certainly there are many times to use torque wrenches, on head bolts, large mounting bolts, etc. I use a torque wrench on my lug nuts.

No need to wipe down your socket or extension. Unless you leave your tools covered in Mrs. Buttersworth syrup... if so, clean them off thoroughly before installing your plugs.

You've spread thermal compound before, you'll have no problems with your plugs. Good Luck!

Knock sensor: see post 23 in this thread for a nice picture of the knock sensor: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...ming-belt.html

 
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It's always best to KNOW what you want before you look. If you start listening to pitches by people that couldn't fix a sandwich, you're gonna lose.

I gotta remind my dad this every time he wants me to do something to his truck. Last time it took 2 trips to the GM dealer because the DangerZone stuff he came in with was just plain wrong.
And with my discount, Genuine GM stuff was cheaper anyway.


DENSO and NGK are both OEM plugs for Honda and both are high quality. NGK seems to be the more popular or well known name though.

From my parts catalog:
DENSO - PKJ20CR-M11
NGK - PZFR6F-11

Both are pre-gapped, the "11" at the end of the number is the gap in mm.

Both are Platinum plugs.....
IMO the Iridium equivalent for those numbers in either brand would also be acceptable (they are 100k plugs too), as are the plain cheaper equivalents if you don't mind replacing them every 30k.

Since I'm more familiar with the NGK numbering system, theirs would be
ZFR6F-11 (plain V power)
PZFR6F-11 (Platinum)
aaaand probably IZFR6K-11 (Iridium) (just guessing here)

Unscrew the old, screw in the new.
Torque to correct spec.

Ya think you should locate yours FIRST and see if it's plugged in, before you just order another?
Yes it's got a pigtail on the sensor.

 
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Um, first pic was the oil pressure switch?

 
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Yes it was. No worries, you've since posted the one I was searching for BTW...

 
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OK, maybe I should try again when it's light out, but - I can't actually see the knock sensor when looking from the top. Do I need to jack up the car and go from under? (I saw people going from up top on one video for a Honda, but I can't seem to find that link now...) Or do I simply need to remove some covers?

I went ahead and ordered the NGK sparks and some extra wrench bits, since that should be easy enough. And will clean the battery terminals as soon as I'm done with the current crop of midterms.

 
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Gotta be under the car. It's just below the intake manifold.

 
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Got it. I'm guessing I should probably get a pair of jack stands for messing with this? (The little scissor lift just feels sketchy. And this car's too low for me to fit under it much at all.)

 
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ABSOLUTELY!

I'd hate for your next of kin to post your obituary on here because you didn't use safety stands.

 
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Do these look good? Or should I head down to Harbor Freight when I get a chance?

 
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Sup to you.
What's Sears and Kmart got? Walmart? Any other box stores there handy?

 
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I bought the same ones at Northern Tool or Harbor Freight. They will be more than adequate. Please-- always use a jackstand. Never trust any jack. People have cars fall on them more often than you think.

I know of a young man who is wheelchair bound because his jack failed while he was under the car.

 
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Yikes! Yeah, I was wondering about that.

Kmart, Harbor Freight, and Home Depot are the main ones I can think of around here. Eh, I'll buy the amazon ones - same price, and it gives me an excuse to get some Tom Petty CDs cheap while I'm at it (for testing stereos/why not). Those songs always manage to sneak onto my road trip playlists anyway.

Hmm... I'm wondering if I should go ahead and order the knock sensor anyway (should be the right part http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine...0-PLE-004.html is the cheapest source I found OEM). The problem is I'm currently in a house, but moving to an apartment in a little over 3 weeks, so I'd like to get this done sooner rather than later. Then again, I'm a college student in a college town (Corvallis, OR), so I doubt people would object to me working in the parking lot too much.

 
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You seem eager to learn and I'm a noob on this forum, so in the spirit of contributing back for the help I've received I offer this automotive hack...

To ease re-installing of spark plugs, given the deep wells of these engines, get 14" inches or so of 5/16" inner diameter rubber fuel hose from a parts store. Stick the insulator end of the plug into the hose snug enough where it won't fall out but not too tight. Use this to lower the plug into the well and to thread it in. You'll get a better tactile feel and virtually cannot cross thread upon insertion since the plug will slip in the hose. With a socket, depending on the type you use, you may not feel it going in wrong and end up with a problem if you brute force it. With more experience you probably don't need to do this, but I still use it. With a little effort you can work any curvature out of it (coat hanger, etc. run through to straighten and then heat it.. leave in sun) and add it to your tool set.

 
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for the love of God,

NEVER get under a car without jack stands or ramps,

you dont want to have your life depending on that crappy little honda jack,

im almost feeling sick just thinking about doing that

 
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They also make spark plug sockets. With little rubber fittings that hold the plug. Just use an extension to thread it at first (without the wrench attached). If you can't finger tighten it - you've cross threaded it.

Regarding to use or not use anti-seize. The nickle coating on spark plugs is for the easy removal of the plug after the fact, which is why a company like NGK might not suggest the use of anti-seize. The Honda engineers did the math to find the correct torque specification which was WITH anti-seize. If you don't use this as a lubricant you will achieve an inaccurate torque when tightening the plugs.

Use anti-seize. Use a torque wrench. It's a simple step, and the only way to ensure you have not over, or under tightened the plugs (or any other fastener for that matter.)

 
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OK, interesting - people in the amazon reviews were specifically saying not to use anti-seize. I'm confused...

And yes, I ordered the jack stands. I think I'm going to go ahead order the knock sensor as well since that's throwing OBDII errors (should be http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine...0-PLE-004.html ), and the fuel pump relay as cheap/easy to install insurance (should be http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine...4-S5A-003.html ).

Let's wait and see if the fuel pump itself is behaving after this. Shoot, is the fuel filter worth looking at, while I'm at it?

 
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i think you are overthinking this,

i cant see any harm in using anti-seize as long as you dont gob it on there, use one tiny little dab of it, like the equivalent of one drop of oil out of an oiling can,

a torque wrench depends on your experience, i never use one on plugs but ive been at this for over 25 years, when i first started i SHOULD have been using one,

if you are unsure or inexperienced use one