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I just got my 02 EX back from the dealer after having the driver's airbag inflater replaced under recall. My main question is what was actually replaced. I had assumed that they would just replace the whole airbag assembly but I still have the same airbag. Is the inflater something separate that they replaced? I just want to make sure this got done right.


Now to the rest of their recommendations.
----------------------------------------------------
Inspection & Additional Recommendations
REPLACE LEFT FRONT LOWER BALL JOINT (LEFT FRONT LOWER BALL JOINT BOOT IS LEAKING) $230.85
REPLACE HOOD RELEASE CABLE (HOOD RELEASE CABLE IS BROKEN) $233.67
Subtotal $464.52

Perform power steering fluid exchange service (Found power steering fluid to be in poor condition/contaminated/discolored) $109.00
Perform brake fluid exchange service (Found brake fluid to be in poor condition/contaminated/discolored) $109.00
Perform coolant fluid exchange service (Found coolant to be in poor condition/contaminated/discolored) $203.00

Replace right front CV axle (Found CV joint boot(s) cracking/splitting) $389.75
Subtotal $810.75

Estimate Subtotal $1,275.27
Misc. Charges $76.52
Sales Tax $113.28
Estimate Total $1,465.07
----------------------------------------------------

I obviously declined all of those services except for the hood release which they broke and then told me it was "old brittle plastic". But after some convincing they managed to find a way to replace it out of "goodwill". They sell the part for $10. I can't believe they thought I would pay them $233 for their mistake. Also all of those fluids I have replaced completely in the last month so I don't put too much stock in this "inspection".

The left ball joint boot is leaking. I had the ball joint replaced at a different place at the end of April. Is this something I should take back and have them fix, or is this just **** happens. If so, how soon should I think about replacing that boot?


The CV joint I'm just not seeing.
This is the lower boot


and the Upper
from the top

from the side

and two bottom angles



Is this thing a boot?


Right boot cracking sounds too specific to just be made up, but I don't see any cracking and splitting. I'll probably take a more through look tomorrow but is there somewhere else I should be looking?

Also completely unrelated, my grand adventure changing my timing belt and replacing every seal I could including the oil pump o-ring seems to have failed. There is oil leaking from the bottom of the timing cover again. Did I just not seal the oil pump correctly? When I changed it I didn't see oil on anything in the timing compartment. Is this something I can just forget about for awhile until I have the time to dig in there and try again?

 
Rep Power: 517

The inflator IS a separate part, it bolts in from the hidden side of the airbag.

Typical drivers airbag, rear view (not your specific Civic though)


The part you can see while driving is not replaced in this recall. Just that center part that is bolted in from behind.

Similar deal goes for the recall on the passengers airbag inflator, if anyone else reading has a question about that..


But if you did pay, they win.
At least you said something and got them to reevaluate their ......position.
Crap happens.
At least they stepped up on this one.


You were free to decline the sales pitch if you wish, and you did.

Most average people aren't DIYers, they pay to have their cars serviced.

I think I've written some of my feelings on these free inspections here in the past. (I have a copy of one rant here....but I shouldn't post it LOL)

Depends on the type of boot involved. Is it just a cover that is free to let excess grease out, or is it a sealed boot like the original was? Are there any cuts in the rubber?

Also, that joint looks like a replacement already.

I see it, top pic is clearer. Deep weather cracks in the rubber around the small end band clamp, about 1/8 inch up from the clamp.
Not a disaster yet, but will probably become a leaker in the near future as the weather cracks rot all the way through.

Also look for the same types of cracking between the larger bellows or ribs of the outer boots.


Honda sells boot kits. If the CV joints are in good shape, I would have suggested rebooting the axles instead of replacement. More labor intensive though, but probably cost less than purchasing OEM axles. (Aftermarket axles can be a crapshoot)
No. It's a torsional damper.



As long as you are certain the timing belt is not getting wet with oil, then probably.

Wait, the FREE inspection didn't catch this?

 
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Good to know the airbag is hopefully ok. I was hoping to get a new steering wheel though because my H emblem is dented, oh well. My passenger inflater was also under recall but they said the parts hadn't been released for that yet.

At the end of April, the service that made me decide to figure stuff out for myself, I had new front lower control arms and ball joints put on. The ball joint part on the invoice is listed as OPP OPMSP(what does that mean?). So I'm not sure what kind of boot it is. I'll check it for cracks tomorrow but from the picture it looks cracked and judging that the right one doesn't leak and they were replaced at the same time, I'm going to guess it's not supposed to. If I got an OEM boot would it probably fit on there?

I will definitely just replace the boots if I can get away with it. How common is it that the joints go bad?

Well I can't be certain without opening it back up, but the previous timing belt didn't have any oil on it and thus far its not a big leak.

I know, I'm surprised too. They could have tacked on another $1000.

Also thanks again for all your help. Stopping the oil leak may not have gone as planned but the PS valve body replacement thus far is working great. No leaks there.

 
Rep Power: 517

Ask your installer this.


You'd think so, but seeing as how they are not OE parts the designs may differ. Meaning the 2 joints might be completely different brands and designs.

Maybe not. It would def fit an OEM joint, but you don't have that anymore.

CV joints....could outlast the car if the grease doesn't leak out. OTOH I still occasionally see joints bad, causing noise or vibration-- without leaking.

Oil pan seal leak?

Think about the FREE part of FREE inspection.

Yay!

 
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I'll do that and see what he recommends. Can you buy just an OEM joint? It looks to me like it's a part of the knuckle on this: http://estore.honda.com/honda/parts/...at&sn=&b=B++27

Also would I take apart the ball joint the same way I did the tierod end? (Big hammer)

The manual gives these as the inspection steps. How much is excessively loose and in what direction would it be? And twisted like the rod would be bent?

Definitely could be. Looking at it closer again it looks like there is a drop on the front "tab" on the corner of the pan as well as the bottom of the timing cover. The pump o-ring is at the rear top and I usually park on a slight incline so that means its probably the pan seal right?

Well it was very free because I didn't even know they were going to do it until I got the pdf in my email. I get the angle they are working but it's just just frustrating to see first hand. Like their $20 "retail" markup on tierod boots, but if you order online, $2.50.

 
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Argh... yep, 2001-05, meaning *all* 7th-gen Civics including Si are under the present Takata recall... was wondering if that included Canadian Civics but AFAIK they use the same parts as US Civics...

Judging by how quickly other auto-related turnarounds are here... this could take a while; best get my name in sooner than later. Calling first thing in the AM Mon, we'll see what they say. Just replaced my steering wheel... would be nice to get a new airbag too! j/k... I think the recall is inflator only...

 
Rep Power: 517

Yes,

Read this bulletin carefully (should open a PDF), keep in mind that yours has already had more than one set of ball joints pressed in, so you might be needing to use the oversized version, or your knuckles might be unusable. Details in the bulletin:


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhonda-tech.com%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D25478%2 6d%3D1237221213&ei=Dd7eU4DrMo6nyASgioCYAw&usg=AFQj CNGmrLXU22VRavthl50pvnhDbXuT-Q&sig2=h3M_1qHWjVhHx7xwwwOl-A&bvm=bv.72197243,d.aWw
If you don't have any other way, it works.


That criteria is pretty ...weak... for a DIYer to be given. All CV axles have some amount of play, and "twisted"? Seriously? Who has enough power to do that in a stock car?

Experience and comparison should be the guide, and it's awful tough to give subjective and loose criteria in print.


I dunno, I can't see it. Clean it all off thoroughly and hit it with white powder, that should help show a trail when it starts leaking.

Think how I feel.

Like I said, I think I have ranted about this subject already.

Some dealers have realized a good part of their customer base is computer savvy and can check out prices online in a few seconds. Others haven't.

OEM outer tie rod end boot, 2.83 retail.
1.98 from Majestic, plus shipping.
Not including labor, of course.

 
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I wiped the grease off the ball joint boot and it looked pretty good. Didn't see any cracks. I'll keep an eye on it but hopefully that was just excess from the installation. Nice of them to just assume it was cracked.

Thanks for the pdf. I definitely don't want to get into anything that could involve knuckle replacement right now.



I understand. I get maybe a couple mm of movement side to side on the whole axle and in any other direction I think I am just pushing the whole car.

What kind of white powder?

I ended up paying 2.41 but only after getting them to price match themselves. I've realized you just have to look out for yourself with this kind of thing and question everything.

Except for the oil leak I think everything is actually ok. I feel fairly confident the other things aren't problems, at least yet.

 
Rep Power: 517

Factory joints aren't supposed to leak, period. Someone probably just noted the leakage without pursuing further investigation.



Did you check if that boot is just a cover or if it is a sealed unit?



Don't worry much about it.
Noisy is bad. Shaking (usually on acceleration) is bad. Broken is bad.
White.
Bath talc.
*Right Guard.*
Foot powder.
I can't say if OE boot would fit an aftermarket joint.

 
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I don't think I know the difference. It seems to fit pretty tight.

This is the right boot that wasn't leaking. The left looks pretty similar.

 
Rep Power: 517

^That doesn't look like a simple cover, that looks like the big end is pressed on.

 
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So there is no reason grease should ever come out of that even just after installation?

 
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I wiped the oil pan yesterday and from the way it looks today I don't see how it could be anything else other than the oil pan. The front half of the lip from the front left corner to the middle of the dip under the crank shaft is wet but not the back half. I'm just going to go ahead and try to reseal it. I figure I don't have much to lose trying this first.

Kind of related if I run out, is there a way I can order ultra flange 2 from the online estore? I can walk in and get it but I'd like to not get gouged if I can.

 
Rep Power: 517

Was it clean after installation, or was it left greasy at that time?
If you aren't sure, then just leave it alone for now and check it later for leakage.

Are there grease zerks on those joints?
Overfilling can blow the boot out, and some boots do have weep holes to let the excess grease ooze so the boot doesn't blow out.

Sure if you know the part numbers....
estore gives retail prices though....
Try a dealer online, there are many that sell online at wholesale prices.
Or walk in to a dealer and get some,

I'd probably go to any average parts store and get Permatex Ultra Gray.

 
Rep Power: 0

Not sure how the boot looked after installation. I'll wait and check it over again.

My problem now is that I may have stuck the pan on too good last time. To get it off last time I pried the front corner in the middle of the car and it popped free, but that isn't working now. Any tips for taking off a too stuck pan?

 
Rep Power: 517

Cast pan?

Don't they provide a small gap (3/16") near at least a couple corners, where you can fit a small hook (ladyfoot) prybar like this


wrecking bar?


Man, I hate trying to think of how I did these, I haven't had one off a 1.7 in months. Lately I've been doing this on V6's.

 
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+1. All Hondas with cast pans (including their motorcycles) have a pry point for cases and pans. On the D17 valve cover for example, there's one IIRC on the front driver's side? Gap is as ezone describes, ~3/16". I use a rag-wrapped blade screwdriver, as it shouldn't take too much to break seal, even on a rocky cork one. If you can't pry it easily...

a. SUPPORT THE PAN FROM FALLING. Use a jack with a piece of wood under the pan to catch it... or if you're really skint, a cardboard box big enough to just about take up all the space.

b. Knock on the bottom of the pan with a hammer on a piece of tubafore (2x4 ). I don't recommend you strike the sides of the pan, since when gaskets shear they sometimes tear... and then you're neck-deep into the World of Razor Blades on Aluminum Sealing Surfaces. Knocking *into* the gasket surface a couple of times firmly will shock the varnish to loosen it enough for the pry point to break it free... sometimes in one piece, with OEM gaskets.

c. And for the love of Dog, don't remove your pan while its full of oil. Or actually please do, while your wife / g/f unit is taking video right over your pristine concrete garage floor or driveway.

 
Rep Power: 517

Leave 2 of the long bolts screwed into the short holes a few threads (on opposite sides of the pan) so the pan can't fall all the way off.
The cast pan is extremely thin on the bottom flat surface. Do not beat on it there.
The aluminum is so thin, you can get a strong magnet to stick if you get near the sump pickup tube.
Yeah, not kidding. Someone else in the shop stuck my magnet to one and I kinda tripped.

 
Rep Power: 0

A much larger wrecking bar was all we had, but that worked!

First lets wrap up one minor catastrophe. Here is our friend the june bug about 1000mi later.


Now back to the leaking. I think the problem had to do with how I applied the Ultra Flange. It seems like most of it squished out and ended up on the inside lip. I torqued them to spec. Should I have waited a little longer for it to set more? You can see how it's falling inside in this first picture and the second one is the front corner where I think it was leaking. There was a gap in the gasket there.





And finally the new minor catastrophe. One of the front studs that comes out of the block snapped in half. What the heck do I do about that? Does that bolt come out?

 
Rep Power: 517

I LOL'd.
Part of it looks like a couple issues.

1-looks like maybe oil got into the sealing area, sealer didn't stick cleanly to the surfaces.
2- sealer wasn't spread evenly.
3- sealer was set too hard before install.
4- POSSIBLY got oil soaked before the sealer was cured after assembly.

(first pic shows good squish, second pic has lumps that didn't get squashed at all. Pan must mate completely flat against the block, and it didn't.)

I clean it all with brake cleaner. Both halves.
I spread the goo out with a finger. Evenly, around the flats and bolt holes. It does not have to be thickly applied, there will be almost no gap between the flat surfaces when installed properly.

Sealer should not be allowed to harden, set, or skin. Slam that stuff together ASAP.
Just before I mash the pan on, I shoot brake cleaner around the block again just because i know oil keeps on dripping.

When you bolt it all together, all the sealer that you see getting squished to the outside is also getting squished to the inside. You don't want those thick rolls of sealer breaking off inside the engine and clogging up the oil sump pickup, so just apply a thin evenly spread coat in the steps above.







In an ideal world, it should be able to spin out because it's just a threaded stud.
Maybe. If it isn't stuck.
Good luck.

 
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Well the good news is I was able to get all of the studs out of my old oil pump. The bad news is the new after market oil pump they seem really stuck in. The non broken ones have hex sockets in them but I wasn't able to turn them with the cheap allen key I found. Hopefully a better one will do it. The broken one however there is practically no way to grab it between the crank pulley and the ac compressor. Also all I have are regular old pliers.

Any recommendations on what kind of tool would be good for grabbing that bolt in tight spaces?

 
Rep Power: 517

Vise grips? You are replacing it, you don't care if it trashes threads.

A little heat should soften loctite if they put it on the studs.

You only need to change the broken one.

 
Rep Power: 517

Stud puller

 
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Ach, crap! Gotcha...

So, putting a jack under the pan with a piece of wood for supporting the motor during mount removal is also no good? Wow -- talk about nickel-and-diming the content on this gen...

 
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That is actually what the manual says to do so I think it's fine. I've done it and didn't have any problems.

That was the winner. I had to pop the crank pulley off to get at it from the side but I finally got it out and the good one back in. I tried renting a set of those stud pullers from autozone and then bought/returned that exact set you pictured from oreilly. Neither could grab the stud. There just wasn't enough there. The oreilly ones did grab on the other full studs though.

Now just need to clean it and put it all back together. And hope I seal it right this time.

Thanks for all the help.

 
Rep Power: 517

Oh come on, it's fine as long as you use a block of wood to spread out the load.

I use a jackstand under the engines and raise and lower the cars all the time, no problem.
I would not use a bare jack or jackstand though.

I keep a pair of stands with blocks of wood duct taped to them in my bay at work.

 
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Oh -- that's what I was suggesting in my post: knocking a hammer/mallet on a piece of wood (tubafore) in the direction of the gasket surface, on the bottom of the pan.

I understand that shock impact and slow lowering of weight onto a jack are two different applications of force... but the jack/wood is supporting a 300-lb+ drivetrain, and the knocking I was suggesting is maybe 20 lbs of force 4-5 times, if the OP was able to swing a 2-lb soft-faced mallet under the car. Not even close to being the same load on the pan.

If the pan was *that* delicate, even with content chiseling I couldn't see Honda approving it for production in the Americas.

 
Rep Power: 0

Any good tips on how to remove all the old RTV quickly?

Also when I install the pan do I put the RTV on the pan or the block?

 
Rep Power: 517

Knock and peel the big chunks off, and clean it so it's smooth with no debris.

I tend to use, in order:
gasket scraper, then a razor blade
carb spray might soften the sealer a little bit if you need that

Be careful with shop towels and rags, they can leave fibers behind.


I spray it all down with brake cleaner next, because it dries clean and leaves no residue.


If the pan were steel, I might hit it with a wire wheel or wire brush. I don't like to do that to aluminum because it can remove metal.

No sandpaper, no gasket grinders, no scotchbrite/cookie pads, ever.


I apply it to the pan, because that's far easier to work with.

Apply new RTV, spray off the block again with brake cleaner (because it's still dripping oil), then as soon as that's flashed dry I slap the pan up there before the sealer begins to skin. Merrily bolt it in, watch the sealer squish as you tighten bolts.
I want the fresh sealer to bond to both surfaces, and it doesn't seem to bond if it skinned over or if there is any oil residue on a surface.


HTH

 
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Well ****. I think the reason I can't get it to seal properly is because the aftermarket oil pump doesn't fit properly.



I tried to pack some more RTV in there but I have little confidence that will keep it from leaking. Still I'm fairly sure that the leak is the pan seal and not in the timing compartment so I'll just deal with it for now till I have more time and figure out what to do about the oil pump.

Obviously this is a lesson in going with the cheap ebay option. Was there a better choice other than the $250 OEM option?