Scout1

Looks like I may have to replace my radiator. I have found some considerably cheaper online. Some list a 2 row or 1 row. I would think a 2 row would give better cooling but I want a direct replacement and don't want to modify anything. Suggestions on what radiator to use and the source for it. I have been smelling coolant and have had to add some. It does not leak enough for me to see any anywhere. The seam around the top of the radiator looks a little suspect. I bought the car used and have receipts showing that it was flushed on a regular schedule. Thanks.

Ed

Poopies

iTrader: (4)

And you're SURE it's not the HG?

JJ291

I agree with Poopies (I pooped today also!). I'd be taking a serious look at my oil. But if you decide to go with a new, I got a direct replacement for my 2001 LX from sparkplugs.com - denso with all the fixins. I paid like $70 or something ridiculous like that.

clinton_hedrick

I tried getting this one when I busted my radiator a few months ago, but they no longer had it in stock. It would've been a great deal though. Instead, I got a Spectra brand from Autozone. It fit right in, came with a lifetime warranty and was at least made in Canada for $120. Look for the one JJ recommended, but if not, I'd recommend the Spectra.

But yeah, its more likely a head gasket. The only reason my radiator went is because I hit a pretty good size ditch and busted it.

Scout1

I have been turning wrenches for a while but I am new to Hondas. I have read on the internet that Civics are known for head gasket problems. I will do some tests this weekend but I think my head gasket is okay. I am going to rent a pressure tester and start there. If it is the head gasket then it must be leaking external to the engine because there is no smoke or odor in the exhaust and plugs don't show anything. There is a coolant smell around the front of the car.

Ed

Matt_75

7th gen's are notoriuos for blowing head gaskets. It's more than likely your head gasket if you've been turning wrenches for a while. Do your pressure test, but be sure to bleed the cooling system before you completely condemn the head gasket or the radiator. In my situation I believe the head gasket problem blew out my radiator. I had to replace both.

Scout1

I meant that I have been turning wrenches most of my life so I feel Like I know my way around cars. I just haven't had to work on Hondas much. So far it has been one of the easier vehicles for me to work on. The car runs great, oil looks good, and no bubbles at the radiator.

Ed

Scout1

Got hold of a head gasket block tester. Instructions said to squeeze the pump for 2 minutes to draw air from the radiator through the test solution. I did it for about 5 minutes and the solution did not change color one bit. I am real confident that I just have a bad radiator. I think I will change it and the hoses so I know all is good. The hoses are pretty soft and look really old. Autozone has the radiator for about 114.00. I have seen some on line for half that. Anybody had any luck on line?

Matt_75

Good luck with the new radiator. I can tell you I'm confident my blown head gasket took my radiator with it...specifically the top hose blew a big crack in it with massive steam pressure I'm assuming. I hope you don't blow a new radiator because your head gasket is the real culprit. Do a search for blown head gaskets to see if you really think your problem is the radiator.

Scout1

Matt, the only thing I have not checked is if in fact the HG is bad then it is not leaking into the cylinders, as the chemical test passed. If the HG is bad then it must be leaking externally around where the head meets the block. I will rent the radiator tester and pressurize the system and see if I can pinpoint the leak. I can smell the coolant and like I said the crimp around the top of the radiator does't look that good but I have not found the leak. It is not bad enough to leak on the ground or leave evidence when it is hot. If I pressurize the system and let it set for a while I should find out something. I won't be able to get to it until Sunday.

Ed

civicbyrc

pressure test first. you should be able to see a coolant leak. the back of the head has a block of pipes that bolt up to the head, the water pump, the heater control valve against the fire wall and the radiator leak most often. if it was you HG your temp would get hotter than normal and the block test would have failed.

Scout1

civicbyrc,

I have had to work a lot lately so I haven't dug into this too far yet. Had trouble with the tester from Autozone. Went back three times to try and get the right adapters. Gave up and took it back. Got the tester from Advance, very nice complete kit. Cap checks good. I did not have much time but hooked it up to a cold engine and pumped it up to 15psi. I had to connect it about three times but finally got it right. It seems to check out okay???? I only had it on there for about 10 minutes. Needle held pretty much steady. I was hoping to see a drip. Didn't get anything. I am going to try again next weekend and let it sit for a couple of hours. When I took the tester off the fluid level had gone down some. Where it is going is still to be determined. I think I didn't leave it on long enough. I can smell coolant in the enging compartment so I still feel it is an external leak and not a head gasket as the chemical test for exhaust gasses passed. I also started the car with the tester on it and watched the guage. It did not pressurize as I would expect if the HG was bad. I really want to find the problem and not just change parts but I am about to give up and try the radiator anyway.

Scout1

Getting real frustrated with my coolant issue. I ordered a radiator online and it will be here Tuesday. Still tried to find the leak. So far I have done the following.
1. Chemical test for exhaust in the radiator - passed.
2 Pressure tested radiator and it passed.
3 Tried to leave pressure tester on for a long time but it slowly blows out. the adapter is like a big rubber plug and won't hold for more than about 15 minutes. But holds pressure and no leaks for that period of time.

I smell coolant after driving when I get out of the car so I was sure it was leaking somewhere.

Hate to give up but I plan to change radiator and see if that fixes it. If not, I am afraid I will have to accept the fact that the head gasket could be bad. I sure would like to prove it though. I would hate to do all that and find out it is something else simple. I have done head gaskets on Chevy 350 so I am pretty sure I can handle it. I will study up while I am waiting for the radiator. I have receipts that show the timing belt was changed but no mention of the water pump. What other things should I tend to if I have to pull the heads?

Thanks for the help.

Ed

clinton_hedrick

I'd much rather pull the heads off of a 350 than the head on my civic again. It isn't really anything more difficult, things are just so much more cramped and a general pain in the a**, and you have to take off a few more things to get the sob off. But nonetheless, you should be fine to do it. Replace all of the gaskets you get to while you're at it and a new timing belt if it's been a while.

ezone

So I'm wandering by......


My back hurts just thinking about that.


Half of the bad head gaskets I see on this engine will pass every test you guys have mentioned. These almost never leak externally. These almost always leak from the combustion chamber into the cooling system, and that's it. That's all.

My procedure:
Start with a hot engine, pull out plugs and rad cap:
Pressurize each cylinder (@TDC, one at a time) with shop air line pressure 150-170+ PSI. Watch for the coolant level to rise when you get to the bad one. (sometimes this is a slow process)
If no results, then wait for the engine to cool down and repeat this same procedure on each cylinder.

If it passes this test, then it's probably ok right now.


Go for the radiator or keep looking for the source of the smell or whatever.


That should be an identifiable problem.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

I did not see this until today either...
Let's not decide too fast that it's the gasket... It need to loose coolant through the coolant reservoir to be a clue. true, it's the most common cause. BUT still not proved in this case.
and yes, like ezone mentioned, the D17 pushes combustion gases to the coolant, not the other way around. no milky oil, unless it's REEEEALY blown gasket. so any testers that considers coolant going to the oil might miss this.

we compiled most of the odd cases in here, as well as the most common cause, since we were tired of parroting the same thing over and over again (to show how common it was, actually...)

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...reference.html

but please DO KEEP READING, there are several other cases it was not the gasket.

Scout1

Ezone,

I put a lot of faith in your advice and experience. I have a leakdown tester and will try the cylinder test tommorrow(have family stuff today). If the headgasket needs changing then thats the way it is. I just want to make sure. I think I have a little more info. The expansion tank is very difficult to tell how much fluid is in it(hate how they mounted it). I filled it up really high to where I can see it. I ran the car until it warmed up and the expansion tank started to overflow, the fans misted this over flow and I assume it evaporates. I think this is why I cannot find any drips or leaks. So now it appears that the radiator flows to the expansion tank like it is supposed to but it doesn't go back into the radiator when it cools. I just swapped the caps from my wifes Civic to my car. I will see what happens. I pray that it is that simple. With my families history luck is not on my side. I forgot to add in my previous post that the oil looks like it just came out of the bottle. I have receipts from previous owner and he did change it often.

Ed

ezone

I have a genuine leakdown tester, complete with pressure regulator and 2 gauges.

It might be ok for measuring leakage (what it's designed for), but it is truly worthless for proving any but the absolute worst cases of blown head gaskets. I don't even bother to use mine to find things like valve leakage, I use shop air line pressure.

Shop air line pressure is much closer to actual cylinder working pressures. (170 PSI vs. 30 PSI, vs. 300-800 PSI during combustion).

When these things first start showing their signs of failure, the RATE of leakage is usually very small and slow, such that it can take a few hours of sustained highway driving before it has displaced sufficient liquid to cause noticeable overheating.
You are not going to find something like that with only 30 PSI in a cylinder. Even when I use 170 PSI it can take some time before any results can be seen (some are much faster than others), but this method has not failed me yet.

I take into account all the other symptoms I see, and if those symptoms lead me to perform this test, then I already know what to expect from this test. This test is primarily providing PROOF of the suspicion, and identifying which cylinder(s) have the issue.

I use this test when someone comes in saying another shop said they need a head gasket, and when another shop swears it can't be a head gasket too. Answer in 15 minutes, tops, most of the time.


Yeah, and also I hate air filter boxes that are bolted together. I prefer lunchbox latches.

The reservoir on the 9th gens is even worse to see, and I can't wait until they have a ton of miles on them.
Not.

I use a strong flashlight and shake the bottle.

Waaaay too full. Engine heat will always cause the liquid to expand, that's why the reservoirs have more than one mark.

Um, it will stink for a damn long time and leave crusty trails. Antifreeze doesn't quite evaporate like water.

Makes more sense now. Wash everything off and dry it?

2 possibilities: the system leaks under a vacuum, or the liquid level in the radiator is too low (air bubble) to create sufficient vacuum to draw liquid out of the reservoir.

That means, primarily, cap and neck sealing problems and pinholes in the overflow hose......... or blown head gasket displacing the coolant OUT of the radiator.

If you have read other posts, the reservoir typically overflows and spills all over the battery area, fan and shroud, and subframe. Meanwhile, the radiator is found to be quite low.


Check out how scooty figured out his, see the video:
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4629441

Just think: You could be replacing fuel pumps in GM trucks annually instead. Or front suspension parts and transmissions in Chrysler products..
These don't mix coolant with oil when the head gasket is bad. It'd have to be really really bad before it did that.

ezone

Again, I can't tell you it's bad from here, I'm encouraging you to test it using methods I rely on heavily that work very well for me.

Scout1

Well I did not want to believe it but I finally confirmed that the head gasket is bad or worst case something is cracked. Ezone I followed your instructions and applied compressed air to each cylinder at TDC. The second cylinder from the passenger side started water coming up the radiator neck. I am disappointed but atleast the problem has been found and I know pulling the head is necessary. I just didn't want to pull it on a hunch. To others following this thread or come across it. Just start off with Ezone's test, He is the "Man". I wasted a lot of time trying to analyse it running chemical test and pressure test which both passed. I used Ezone's instructions and found the problem in about 15 minutes after the other tests passed. My compressor maxes out at 125psi and I started with the engine cold. Second cylinder tested failed. No need to go any farther.

Ezone, How long would it take you to pull the head? I will triple that to give me a ballpark figure to go with. Thanks for alot for all your advice. I am sure I will have some questions when I start to tear into it.

Ed

ezone

I dunno. It's probably barely breaking even for me as far as book CP time.
I know I would lose my butt doing it for warranty (3.1).
Never really timed it either. I'd guess I can have it off in 1.5 (teardown is easy), but I take my time inspecting, cleaning and assembling.
I try to be meticulous when it comes to internal engine work, because I really don't need a comeback, or the reputation that goes with it (I'd rather be an azzhole than a hack.)

I'd go ahead and check the other 2 cylinders. If you find the 2 center cylinders are leaking (blown), then the head is likely warped. Even if you don't find both leaking, the head needs measured for flatness anyway. IIRC .002" is the warpage limit (did not check spec).

Scout1

Thanks Ezone. If I can get it torn down in one weekend, get the head to the machine shop, and back together the following weekend I will be happy. I will have to drive it for a little while so I can schedule some down time. Any special tools that would make the job easier?

Scout1

By the way I did check all four cylinders and only one leaked.

ezone

I mostly use
Air impact guns, 3/8" and Gladiator strength 1/2",
air ratchets 1/4" and 3/8"

Swivel sockets?
Mostly ordinary stuff.

Drain the block before you get the head lifted or else you will have antifreeze EVERYWHERE. If you are replacing the timing belt and water pump with the job, remove the pump to drain it.
Otherwise, there is a PITA block drain on the back near the oil filter that is a real struggle to get out even if you have the car 6 feet in the air. Um, ignore it and let the coolant dump, but if I do that then I plan on changing oil at least twice.

If the car will go past 200k on this timing belt, then I would replace the tensioner pulley with OEM only. Most OE will go to 200k no problem, but I don't trust them much past that even if they feel good upon inspection. Aftermarket is a crapshoot and your valves are at stake.

Intake man
S shaped 12mm wrench?
Offset box 12mm wrench?
Strong magnet LOL.
Pay attention to which fasteners do NOT need to be removed to get the intake off, which ones secure the injector plate to the manifold. Now would be a good time to clean the carbon out of the EGR passages in the injector plate, so it comes off anyway.

Razor blades to scrape the head and block surfaces. No gasket grinder cookies!

When you go to pull the head off, make sure you have a soft well padded place to set it down. There will be a few valves still open, you do NOT want to bend them by setting it on a hard flat surface.

Do not lose the dowels.


Suck the liquid out of the head bolt holes before you set the head back on. You can crack the block if you don't.


Did I miss anything?

Matt_75

^^^Yeah this. I didn't on my intial HG change, but I don't think I caused any problems as it's been over a year now since I changed mine, but I did go back in after I did mine initially...on ezones advice...and cleaned my head bolt holes one at a time to not break the HG seal. Good luck with yours.

Scout1

Thanks for all the suggestions. Between my neighbor and I we have most all of those tools. The timing belt has only 20k mile on it so I will probably let that ride. I will have to check the receipt to see if the tensioner was replaced. Nothing about the water pump being changed so I may as well change that too. I really like this car but I should have checked it out better. Even with the leaking gasket it runs good and has gotten 29-31 mpg.

Ed

ezone

Don't think for a minute that anyone else would have found the head gasket problem, unless they are very familiar with the cars.

If it wasn't glaringly obvious with a 10 minute test drive and a visual inspection, it probably wouldn't be noticed unless someone knows to look for it specifically.

Scout1

Starting to work up a parts list and not liking what I see so far. Should I get the head gasket kit that seems to have everything in it but maybe more than I need? It even has valve stem seals and I imagine the head shop will replace those.

Ed

ezone

Kit 06110-PLD-010, $230 retail. Cheaper online, and some dealers will deal if you already know what you can get it for elsewhere.

Kit comes with valve stem seals.

You won't need valve stem seals if you don't get a valve job.
Our machinist will stop if the valves pass the sealing test, and ask if we want more done. If it doesn't need it, we don't do it.

Scout1

Just continuing to price things. Talked to a well respected Head shop here and they said about $100.00 to pressure test and check it out and to resurface. Around $300.00 to basically rebuild. They charge $50.00 to adjust they valves. Is that necessary? From what I have read it needs to be done on the car while it is cold so you have to adjust them again anyway. So Ezone, so pressure test and if okay resurface and go with it?

Thanks for all the help.

Ed