bikes_and_plane

Hi everyone! I've got a 2004 Civic LX, and have recently decided to graduate from oil and brake changes to some heavier maintenance with the lofty goal of saving some $$. My car just hit 107K, and was due for a new timing belt/water pump. I thought I'd change the plugs while I was at it. Armed with my Haynes manual, I set off to complete this noble quest.

I finished the replacement of the plugs, timing belt, and accessory belts, got everything back together, tried to start the car and... it would start but die almost immediately. I took it apart again and found that the timing was off by 2-3 teeth. I realized this was due to the way I had routed the belt - I had left slack between the crank and cam sprockets. This alarmed me at first but everything I've read suggests I did not damage the engine with so little offset. I correctly reinstalled the belt and put the car back together.

Now the car will run and seemed to drive fine on a test run around the neighborhood, but getting up to speed on the street is a different story. The car has no power above ~30 mph. I can nearly floor the accelerator with little effect. It also does not idle well and sometimes shudders under acceleration from a stop. The CEL came on and the car is throwing code P1129 - MAP pressure higher than expected. I do not know if this is intake or exhaust - the code reader I used did not specify. I've heard/read that this could be due to the timing being off, so I took off the top timing belt cover (and related items) and lined up the white TDC mark on the crank pulley with the lower cover. Sure enough, the camshaft appeared to be advanced a couple of teeth relative to the crank.

I then lined up the cam at TDC, took the crank pulley and lower cover off to get at the belt, and was surprised to see the marks on the crank sprocket and oil pump line up. To reiterate, the TDC marks on the crank sprocket and crank pulley definitely do NOT indicate TDC together! The cam pulley and crank sprocket agree, but when i put the pulley on, it does not. I do have the key inserted, so there is no relative movement between the sprocket and pulley.

This calls into question whether I was actually at TDC when I put the new belt on. One set of marks says yes, the other says no. The symptoms when the car is running seem to correlate to the timing being off, but I could be wrong on that.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for the help!

bikes_and_plane

UPDATE: so I have been assuming that the TDC marks on the oil pump/crank are the correct ones, and the pulley is somehow incorrect. Today I tested this.

I took out the #1 spark plug (rightmost when facing the engine from the front of the car) and stuck a super long drill bit into the cylinder. At this point the crank's TDC marks lined up. I then rotated the engine counter clockwise... and the drill bit backed OUT of the engine, meaning the piston went UP! It stopped going up when the marks on the crank pulley and timing belt cover lined up. To my (simple) understanding, that means the piston is at TDC.

My conclusion is that the marks on the oil pump/crank are wrong, and the marks on the timing cover/crank pulley are correct. Can anyone confirm if my reasoning is correct? Sorry this is a bit wordy - I can post some pics if that helps.

GolNat

iTrader: (7)

Your reasoning sounds good to me.

First timing belt job I did I used that method to find TDC since I had lost it after removing the belt. Worked great!

JJ291

I ran into some issues the first time - I wasn't very good at praying before I started but I sure was when I was done. This is rotten luck - my wife just left with my car for the night otherwise I would post the service manual timing belt pages.

If I remember right, I used the timing belt pulley not the crankshaft pulley, but went back and double checked the crankshaft pulley after lineup. I do not remember the timing belt pulley and camshaft pulley not lining up. The way I check the camshaft for TDC is I take one of my thicker feeler gauges (really any small straight edge will do) and match the lines marked on the cam with the top of the engine head. Then do the same with the timing belt pulley and the block.

I got "off" on my first TB change and this is what I did and was able to get everything back into line. I had to turn the cam a bit then the crank, and so on until they went full circle back into position. Once I had the belt on, I rotated the pulley several times to make sure the belt was OK. I found that it was difficult to get it to line up and a few times I was a tooth or so off. I made the tight side Toward the direction of rotation and eventually it worked out.

I'm not an expert and there are others who can help you more. My suggestion - definitely don't drive it until it ALL lines up. When I run into stuff like this, I take a 10 minute break and come back fresh.

JJ291

Can't beat Ericthecarguy videos. Here's one on a Civic timing belt. Maybe it will help out - just throwing anything that might stick. I do note that he has the notches for the cam even with the top of the block and pulls the tension side to get the belt on.

[autostream]http://autostream.com/ibcivicforums/?page_type=firebirdplayerthumbnail&framepage=1409& transactionid=1373597857-9819999112&posted_by=_www.civicforums.com&youtube_ video_id=AoJcAS58CHg[/autostream]

got2run5

How hard was it to get off that one nut? I'm having a brain lapse and can't remember the part name but I'm sure you know which one I'm talking about. I need to do by timing belt but I'm deathly afraid of that one step.

JJ291

It's funny because I've heard a lot of people concerned about that bolt. Truthfully, I've always been more concerned when I put it on for some reason. In any case, here is how I always get it off and it seems to work well (there are many ways to skin a cat btw):

Get the special Honda tool - rent for free at Autozone
Spray Blaster penetrating oil on the bolt and let sit for 20 min or so
Insert a 3/8 breaker bar and rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise until the breaker bar hits the LCA (I think that is what it hits first but can't remember)
Take an extra jack stand and put it out a little ways away from the bolt outside the car.
Put on a long half inch breaker bar with 19mm deep socket and strong extensions
Support the large breaker bar in the jack stand which should be adjusted to cradle the breaker bar end and keep it as horizontal with the crankshaft as possible
Adjust the angle of the large breaker bar (btw) to allow slight rotation if you stand on it
Stand on the end of the large breaker bar (gently so it doesn't move), then gently bounce up slightly then deep press until you hear "pop" or a fast "squeak".
Pray like mad you didn't screw up.

Installation is reverse of removal. BTW, I do have air tools but they can never seem to bust that thing off!

mikey1

there is a simple way to avoid problems like this, make YOUR OWN timing marks before you remove the old belt, use a permanent marker and make marks on both the cam and crank, use these marks when installing the new belt

johndeerebones

That is the good plan for WAY more than a timing belt job. I wrenched for a living for a while and marked thousands of pieces of equipment and cars over the years. Sharpies, masking tape, zip-loc baggies, and pieces of cardboard are absolutely essential parts of a mechanic's toolbox. Especially a flat rate guy that makes a better living by NOT scratching his head and taking his time. Good point Mikey.

Also yes I realize you guys are mostly hobbyists at best, but if my impact wouldn't take any crank bolt off it would make a FAST trip to the trash. You guys are scaring people with this bolt, it isn't that tight.... Perspective... 1000 to 1500 ft lbs and have to use 3/4 or 1" air tools? Tight, not 400 ft lbs and some time..

bikes_and_plane

Thanks all for the help. I'll move forward with lining up the marks on the case and crank pulley (which agree with the screwdriver test) and ignore the crank sprocket/oil pump marks and will post on the result. Of course I'll have the cam at the TDC position.

In Eric's video I did notice he moves the engine clockwise, which the manuals say not to do. It maybe doesn't matter that much since everything is timed together...? I had to rotate mine a bit clockwise to break loose the pulley bolt as described below.

I can offer up what I did to get the crank pulley bolt off. I had to get a little creative because it took a LOT of torque to break the bolt loose. This was a little unorthodox:

1) Slip Honda Pulley Tool in place with drive hole on the LEFT hand side of the crank
2) Slip a 19mm impact socket over the pulley bolt and brace it from rotating CLOCKWISE. I locked the socket wrench in place, and rotated the crank clockwise until the socket was braced against the part of the frame beneath the drive axle. I tried to make sure I didn't have to rotate much since the manual does advise against rotating clockwise
3) Install a breaker bar into the drive hole in the Honda Pulley tool with the breaker bar protruding from the top of the engine where the alternator/PS pump were located
4) I had to slip some steel pipe over the breaker bar to extend it to 6'
5) Break the bolt free by rotating the pulley CLOCKWISE. The bolt is kept from moving by the socket wrench, so this works.

I had to do it this way because otherwise I did not have enough torque to break the bolt loose with the break bar installed on the bolt itself, even when I was bouncing up and down on the bar.

JJ291

Thanks for the correction on the direction of rotation. Goes without saying - best bet - follow the manual. Johndeerbones, you are correct, I'm at best a hobbyist and I agree on the air tools ... but dang that bolt is tight sometimes!

Eric will often defy the manuals/conventional wisdom but man I love that guy for what he posts! He's saved me more than once.

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

The proper way to set your timing is in my signature

bikes_and_plane

I put the belt on last night and turned the crank through several times, and ran the engine, and it appears to work as well as before I started the repair. So, tentative success, and I'll confirm by finishing up today (need to put P/S pump back in and put the tire back on).

I confirmed that the marks on my crank sprocket are indeed wrong, so the method from your signature will not work for my engine for whatever reason. The marks on the crank pulley/timing belt cover indicate TDC on my car, while the marks on the sprocket/oil pump are advanced by about ~10 degrees. Bottom line: I'll take Mikey's advice next time and make my own marks!

BlueEM2

iTrader: (1)

If this method is not working on your car. Something is wrong with it beyond just the timing. That is the ONLY method on the D17 to set correct timing.