connam06

Hey guys, looking for advice. My 2004 Honda Civic Ex Coupe has had heating issues ever since my girlfriend put it into a ditch. I have had it checked out and I was told that my Radiator and Condenser need replaced but in order to do so the Radiator Core Support needs bent back into place. The job in total came out to $936.94. This seems a little high to me. I've only been quoted at one place, but it cost me $21.39 just to have them inspect the problem, so I'm not trying to go around shop to shop because that could get expensive. Here is the breakdown:

Parts & Labor:

Total: $642.98 for parts & labor in replacing the radiator and condenser
(1) Radiator - $212.99
(1) Condenser - $259.99
Radiator and Condenser replacement labor: $170

Total: $89.99 for parts & labor in the coolant flush
(1) Coolant Flush w/ sealer and conditioner - $11.99
(3) Safety Kleen Khameleon Antifreeze - $11
Run-Rite Radiator Flush & Sealer Labor: $45

Total: $124.98 for parts & labor in A/C Evacuate and Recharge
Evac and Charge A/C
(1) R134A Per Pound - $30
(1) A/C System DYE - $14.99
(1) Air Conditioning 134A Service - $79.99


TOTAL PARTS COSTS: $562.96
LABOR COSTS: $294.99
SHOP SUPPLIES: $ 17.70
TAX @ 7%: $61.29

GRAND TOTAL: $936.94

What are your thoughts on this? The quote seems a little high to me. Ive already had the radiator and condenser quoted at an autoparts store. For both the A/C Condendser and radiator came out to $240 total for BOTH parts. I understand mechanics have a mark up on parts but in this case the markup is ~100% compared to my local auto parts store. My plan is to have another quote done but I wanted to hear your thoughts.

mikey1

i think you need to define what you mean by "heating issues"

what exactly is the problem?

on a side note....NEVER.....EVER.... use any other type of coolant except for the honda OEM "blue" coolant

these systems also should never require a radiator "flush" just drain it and refill it....and if the radiator is being replaced why on earth would you need a flush?

connam06

I apologize. I should have explained the problem to begin with. My car seems to slowly lose anti-freeze. I will notice every two-three months or so, my car will start to run warm (In the red) and overheat. At this time, I will add antifreeze, to find that I am almost completely out (It takes alot to fill it up).
I've also noticed that the coolant reservoir doesnt seem to be working. I am unaware of how they are supposed to work but I do know that I still have coolant in the reservoir when I start to over heat and add coolant to the radiator. Anyway, my main concern is that I will not have warm air until after I drive the car for a bit. When I turn my car on in the mornings and let it warm up, I find that even after 15+ minutes, my car is still blowing cold air. After I get in and drive, it slowly begins to blow warm air, but if my drive is interupted by stop signs and slow traffic, my heat never seems to warm up. After topping off the coolant ive noticed that the problem isnt as bad, but I still seem to have some sort of issue.

My issue with my quote is it seems to high. I also raised my eyebrows when I was told they would be charging me for a standard coolant flush. Why is a brand new radiator installation require a flush? Draining the coolant from the damaged radiator and filling the new radiator should be part of the labor charge that Im already being charged. Why the extra "flush" charge, i do not understand. I should probably talk to the mechanics about how they justify this.

mikey1

you need to find out WHERE all this lost coolant is going first, performing the repairs that you have listed is not likely going to solve your problem,

you have not mentioned any type of coolant leak, so right now im going to assume it is not leaking, if that is the case then your engine seems to be consuming the coolant, you need to find the root of this problem FIRST

you need to be checking your fluid levels more often, letting the coolant get as low as you describe could cause serious damage,

does your engine oil look "milky" or "foamy" like a milkshake?

connam06

You are the second person to tell me this will not fix my issue. When you take your car to a mechanic and explain the problem just as I did to you, and then they tell you that you need to fix this this and this, you should be able to believe that what they tell you would fix the problem. This is a respectable auto mechanic chain store. If I had paid close to $1k to fix a problem, and the problems still exists after, boy would I have been upset.

As far as the oil goes, I havent done a change in awhile (which reminds me im about due). I have never noticed it white or milky.

Why do you suggest to only use Honda OEM coolant? Im not even sure if the radiator is the original as the car had a salvaged title when I bought it.

connam06

I do not notice coolant under my car in my parking spot. Other then that, im not sure how to go about finding where it is going.

mikey1

if there are no leaks, then the engine is slowly consuming the coolant, this is most likely caused by a faulty/blown head gasket,

if your head gasket is leaking, the coolant will slowly be sucked into the combustion chamber and will be "burned off" (so to speak) with the gas during combustion,

once again this is assuming you are not leaking, i think you would easily notice a coolant leak with the amount you are using,

you might want to have your mechanic do a compression test on all 4 cylinders, tell him you suspect a faulty head gasket,

connam06

I will mention this to the mechanic. It makes one wonder why they didnt think to do this and why they are recommending I replace the radiator and condenser. I will stop by there today to discuss what they found in detail and mention what you had suggested. I do not believe I will be using this mechanic to do the work, however I paid for an inspection, so they should be willing to look further into the issue, or explain to me what exactly is going on.

pjb3

If it really is the radiator leaking, the test is pretty simple. They attach an airpump to the radiator opening and pressurize it to about 16 psi. If there is a leak the pressure will drop and you should be able to see the leak. Some autoparts stores loan tools and test equipment so you may be able to do this yourself.

As far as flushing the system, it probably is not necessary. If you ask why he would flush a new radiator he will probably say it for the engine block and not the radiator. If the fluid is clean and not rusty there is no reason to flush it. In most cases it is a profit center for the shop.

The reason people recommend Honda antifreeze is because Honda specifies antifreeze without silicates. There are a few brands such as Zerex that make an antifreeze without silicates but in most cases it's easier to just go to a dealer and get it than search for a store that carries one of the few alternatives.

Since they are replacing the condenser I'm curious if your A/C is working. Usually they put dye in the system to find the leak but if they already know the condenser is bad I'm not sure they need to search for a leak. He may tell you it is to make sure there are no leaks after installing the new condenser.

connam06

My AC seems to work properly. I am not sure why they would be needing to change the condenser. They told me the radiator and condenser was 1 unit, however when I went to the parts store, it was listed under two separate parts. They also had separate parts listed on there quote. I wasn't aware what the condenser was, so I never asked about it. Again, something else I need to talk with them about.

If I can get by without the coolant flush, that would save me a significant amount. If they are putting new coolant in, why in the world would a flush be necessary? Is this in order to 'clean' the engine block? The car is at 150k, and I don't believe it has ever been flushed. Is a flush something that normally needs done every so often? If so, I could probably use it, but I am not sure if it is necessary.

mikey1

you mentioned an accident,

are these parts being replaced because they are physically damaged?

or has this mechanic recommended these parts be replaced to fix your heating problem/issue?

if the cooling system is maintained properly, a flush is never nessessary, only drain and fill, i have 250,000km and i have never flushed, only drained, and my coolant comes out looking like its new,

if your rad/coolant is full and you still have little or no heat, then i would tend to lean toward a faulty thermostat, or a clogged heater core,

however, before any of this is even considered or addressed, you need to first find out where all this coolant is disappearing to,

connam06

The accident happened 3+ years ago. They are replacing this to fix my heat issue I complained about to them. I have never maintained my cooling system. Ive only ever added coolant when needed. Usually whatever I could get at walmart is what I put in it.

anibis

Air getting in the system can cause the heat to not work although it's usually just at idle, once the revs get up the heat works. Air usually gets into the system from a leaky head gasket.

Does the heat ever work?

Air in the system also causes the overflow reservoir to not transfer coolant as it should.

Have you bled the cooling system? There's a DIY on this website, pretty easy to do.

I wouldn't mess with the radiator yet.

connam06

The heat will work while I am driving, so long as I dont have too many interruptions (stop signs, etc).

mikey1

this would tend to indicate your coolant is not flowing fast enough through the heater core, whats happening is your heater/blower fan is cooling down the coolant in the heater core, there is not fast enough flow,

providing your water pump is working properly, and your coolant is FULL, i would say your heater core is clogged/plugged

anibis

Bleed the cooling system. Your heat will come back but only temporarily.

Park the car on an incline so the radiator is the high point; putting the front end on jack stands works too. Let the car cool off, remove radiator cap and top off the radiator. Start the car (with the radiator cap off), turn heat to full HOT but don't turn on the cabin fan. Let the car run and give it some gas every now and then, this will help get the air out. It can take some time to bleed the system, up to 30 min. Keep an eye on the temp gauge and shut it down if it starts to overheat.

I'm sure the radiator is fine...it does sound like you need a head gasket done though. The leaks usually start out slow and can take some time to get bad enough to make the car undriveable. You may be able to get away with bleeding the system every couple weeks and keeping it topped off for now but in the end you will need a new HG, very common failure in these cars.

anibis

Yes the heater core is plugged, only with air. The heater core is the high point in these cars so that's where air gets trapped, it can flow up to the core (bubbles rise in water) but can't flow back down due to the same reason. The air blocks the coolant from passing through the heater core until the pressure is increased....more rpm's = more pressure.

There are other ways for air to get in the system but they would cause visible leaks. Disappearing coolant+air in the system = HG in these cars. If you want to have it verified take it to a mechanic and tell them to put 170 PSI to each cylinder, if the coolant rises when pressure is applied the HG has a leak. The common HG symptoms (oil/coolant mixing, white smoke, poor compression) don't usually appear in these cars, that's why people who aren't familiar with them have so much trouble diagnosing a bad HG.

If you bleed the system and the heat comes back that tells you there was air in the system.

mikey1

thats what i said in post #7......

anibis

Yeah I know, I was just confirming that with a few other tidbits. People who come here don't always believe one person especially when it comes to a major repair.

ezone

Holy cow. OP needs a shop/mechanic that can diagnose, and is willing to actually do the work that will solve the problem, not just toss parts at the car needlessly.

If the AC works, don't F*** with it. It will quit when the engine overheats, that's normal, it is a failsafe.

If the radiator isn't leaking, don't F*** with it either.


Needs a head gasket job. Simple.
Need someone competent to do the job. Not so simple.


Search around here for the methods I use to prove a head gasket leak.
EDIT: DNRTFA until now. Already covered:
HTH