drmhed

Boy, am I glad I found THIS forum. Looks like great information!

O.k...Have an '05 Civic LX 4-door...around 135,000 miles. Had the 'scheduled' timing belt replacement done a couple of years ago. On my last visit for a lifetime oil change, (Dealership...GREAT investment!), they told me I had an oil leak, added the dye, and checked it a week later with the light. Service rep said it looks like the timing belt cover. He looked on my service records and the warranty is still good on the timing belt replacement work they did. He ASSURED me that if it is a faulty or incorrectly installed timing belt cover gasket, or any other 'glitch' in the work they did, my warranty would cover the work. I'm supposed to go in this Friday (11/2) for them to remove the cover and find the problem. Just that investigation work alone will cost me almost $300! I'm wondering what else (OTHER THAN covered by the warranty) might be causing that leak...what else he might 'claim' is causing that leak, to avoid having to repair under warranty. Also, I wasn't even aware that there was a leak...no oil spots on the driveway, (I even put a large piece of white cardboard down), no reduction in oil level between changes, no smell of hot oil, nothing. If the leak actually exists, and is so insignificant as to not even be dripping on my driveway, does it even need to be attended to? Any danger in just continuing to drive as is, until IF/when I start noticing oil spots on the driveway? What things that he 'might' mention, would/SHOULD be considered covered by the warranty on the timing belt work they did? Sorry this is so long-winded. Thanks for any and all input/advice!

Matt_75

Valve cover gasket, Cam seal, Crank seal, internal oil pump o-ring, oil pan gasket. Those are really the only things that can leak through the lower timing belt cover. Until someone actually looks at it, you really can't tell where it's coming from. Even if the leak is insignificant, it's just going to get worse. Better to find the culprit now then wait until it starts dripping oil on the cardboard.

ezone

Sales Maggot/Phone Jockey

He said this because there isn't any way possible that it can be their fault.
Whether or not he knows this, I can't tell....but it is true.
A mechanic would have to screw up really bad to cause an oil leak doing this job.

The timing cover itself cannot be the cause or solution to any leaks. It is only a dust cover, it is plastic. The timing belt job alone can't cause any leaks either, so it won't be their work that directly caused any leak.
Read that again.
That means the warranty on their timing belt work isn't going to help you at all.







When driplets are noticed at the bottom of the timing cover:
You will have a cam seal leak, or front crank seal (oil pump front seal) leak.
I'd expect the cam seal at that mileage.

Maaaaaybe the valve cover gasket, but I doubt it.
Maaaaaybe the oil pan gasket, but that would be obvious in other places too.

There is also a rubber O ring seal between the oil pump and the block. Doubt that's the problem either.






If they want to tear it apart just to "take a look" at YOUR expense, they had BETTER have all possible parts (both of the possible seals and a valve cover gasket set) ready and waiting to be installed BEFORE it comes apart. Or you will be paying to take it apart all over again later when they finally get the parts on the stock order shipment.

You have it at a *effing Honda dealer, they should know da** good and well what should be found leaking inside there.
(EDIT: I ASSume you are talking about a Honda dealer here, not some used car lot.)
300-350 McDoubles would probably cover replacing both the cam and crank seals here, that would solve your leaks in most cases (not including any checkout fee). And I'm in a dealer. I have no idea what shop labor rates are where you are at either, so I can't really judge their prices.
(We rake a lot of coin from inspecting things so we can be accurate, so most phone jockeys aren't going to pass this up.)

What warranty?

If this is all you got: Then you ain't got squat for a warranty.



You got a REAL warranty?
What does it cover?
Read your contract.
Many are just plain worthless.
Not the fault of the shop most of the time.
The person on the other end of the phone sitting in a cube at the warranty company is the one that isn't paying for your repairs, not the guys in the shop. He makes his money from denying your claims.

Google the company, read about complaints.




Next serious question:
How bad IS the leak?
You don't notice any drips on the floor of the garage.
Is it losing oil faster than you can keep up with checking the oil? (You DO check the oil with every tank of gas, correct?)

Wait, you already answered these.

Is it worth the expense?
Can it wait until the next scheduled timing belt replacement? (I can't answer that.)
It won't heal itself.

Have the shop SHOW YOU the leak. Then you can decide for yourself.
(Actually, have a different shop raise the car and show you the leak---or crawl under it and look for yourself.)
Then return to the first shop and see if they show you the same, and see if it still looks exactly the same. Some might try to make it look worse to scare you if they know you want to see it (seen it happen!).


The main danger is in getting the timing belt wet. Hondas engineers made the thing so that most possible sources of an oil leak are funneled away from the timing belt, so this shouldn't happen unless there is a "gusher".


HAHAHAHA

drmhed

Wow, some very speedy, very detailed info! Correct...my 'warranty' is just the standard one attached to work the dealership does. Like you said...my 'warranty' ain't squat. Sounds like I can either bite the bullet now, (and HOPE for the best, if not at least less than the worst...did I just say that??), or put it off until their repair rates come down....hahaha! That's a great idea to take it into an independent shop and have them show me the leak, BEFORE having the dealership show me on Friday. That dye is still in the oil, and I assume most shops have the appropriate black light for spotting that dye. Hm-m-m..should I tell that independent shop I put that dye in, or the dealership did? Seems like most shops wouldn't want to help you, if they know you're taking the work elsewhere. Anyway...thanks a BUNCH for all the detailed info/advice!! Maybe I'll come back all battered and bruised with news of the final bill.

mikey1

what the hell? LOL

a timing belt cover does NOT SEAL OIL, it only seals air and dust, there is no oil in the timing belt area (or should not be),

something BEHIND the cover must be leaking, a service rep/advisor should know this, i cant believe he said that to you,

here is whats going to happen.....

they are going to take it apart and say "nope warranty does not cover it, it was nothing we did"

the car needs a new crank seal, cam seal, oil pump seal/gasket, and oil pan gasket, do you want to pay the $1500 to fix it? or do you want to pay the $300 and have us put it back together as is,

ezone

Or have an indy do the work. You aren't locked into the dealer.

NOBODY will get out a blacklight to look. It is extremely rare that we ever need to use that.
There is an obvious oil drip from the timing cover. Most of us should know what it might be and make an estimate accordingly.


Dye just makes a mess out of the leak IMO. I don't use it for oil leaks except in extreme/odd/strange circumstances.



Correct.
But if one charges appropriately for the hoist time and inspection......

Just ask how much to do the cam and front crank seals. Dealer or indy shop, doesn't matter.

Or crawl under it and decide if the leak is worth messing with. You can buy a lot of oil for the price of the repairs. LOL

drmhed

You've successfully reinforced my suspicion that, once they put it up on the rack and removed the timing belt cover, it would be nothing but serious expense for what could very likely be very little necessity, (at the moment.) There's an indy shop in town with a very good reputation. I'm going to call them and ask how much to do the cam seal and front crank seal work. Then I'll call the dealership, ask them the same question, and cancel my appointment for tomorrow morning. (I hate being up by 8 am, anyway...hehe.) Then I'll just keep an eye on it, and go to whoever gave me the lowest quote, maybe sometime AFTER the expenses of the holidays. (Have my first grandchild...a little girl...due in 3 weeks, too!)

Since this leak isn't leaving spots on the driveway, and doesn't noticeably deplete the oil level between changes, your point about how much oil the cost of having the work done could buy, is WELL TAKEN....especially since I have lifetime oil changes, and am way beyond the point of the oil costing me ANYTHING...) Hm-m-m...I wonder if when lifetime oil change customers reach a certain mileage, 'some' dealerships figure they're losing money by still doing those oil changes, and try to make it up by suddenly finding oil leaks...that don't even leave little puddles on the driveway????

Thanks for ALL you help!!

mikey1

its a good idea but just keep in mind that it might not solve your problem/leak,

its never a good idea to go to a shop and tell them "this is what i want done" because they will do exactly as you ask, and when your engine is still leaking they will simply say "we did what you asked us to do",

its best to let THE SHOP determine where the leak is coming from, that way if their work does not cure the problem, you have something to go back at them with,

leaving the car as is, is fine, but keep in mind leaking oil in the timing belt area is never a good scenerio, it can cause premature belt wear or the belt to possibly slip, you never want problems in the timing area or you are just asking for serious engine damage,

i would get everything done while they have it opened up regardless of where you get it done, ask both shops for an estimate to replace the cam seal, crank seal, and oil pump seals/gaskets, that will take care of all possibilities in that area and wont leave you worrying about a further leak after the work is complete

ezone

There are big differences between a moist stain, a seep, and leaks.

True, 100%.
I don't know why I said what I did, because this is how it plays out in the real world.
(I think I just got fed up with thinking of how OPs scenario was going to play out.)

OTOH I will normally let the customer know what I found and give them the option of proceeding as they dictated or going with my recommendations instead.

Example: Customer wants a wheel alignment done.
Why? Because the car shakes at 65 MPH and up.
Alignment won't solve that problem. (It might need an alignment anyway, but that can't fix the complaint.)

Would you like me to do the alignment anyway, or fix your problem?
Here's what you need........


But apparently I'm not like most other mechanics.....


Depends on the integrity of the shop and its employees.

04 Honda Civic

iTrader: (2)

If he said the reason your leaking oil is because the timing cover is leaking RUN in the opposit edirection as fast as possible and find someone who knows something about cars.

Seriously.

Like ezone said there should NEVER be oil in there to begin with, so obviously there is another problem. Its a timing belt not a timing chain....

ezone

The sales maggots on the phone usually don't know anything about cars.
Sometimes it is really better that they don't.

I would HOPE someone in the shop knows about the cars though.

horta1212

For anyone who happens to have a similar issue as the OP, this oil leak IS caused by the timing belt replacement repair.

I had pretty much the same symptoms as the OP. I had a timing belt replaced by a shop, about three years later, I noticed that my oil level would slowly drop. I never saw a drop on concrete though. I kept driving it two years. Yesterday, I tore the top of the engine off to replace the head gasket. Lo and behold, I found at least one oil leak on the way. There's the timing belt cover, which doesn't contain oil, but behind the timing belt is the "cover, timing belt back" that has a rubber seal that is preventing oil from getting to the timing belt. You can see it in the diagram below. It's part #7.

.


I found that the timing belt back cover had been cracked by overtightening of the screws that hold the timing belt front cover in place. This happened when they were replacing the timing belt. This caused the rubber seal to leak. I also noticed that all of the plastic cover pieces (#1,3,7) were cracked at the bolt holes. Seal #6 is the one that leaked a lot.

Who knew that regular maintenance on a car (when not done right) could cause more problems than you started with?

Hopefully with this info, anyone else with this problem can bring it back to the person who changed the timing belt and tell them that they caused another problem.

mikey1

if you didnt have a problem until three years after the repair, i find it hard to believe they caused your issue

ezone

Welcome..


Your leaking rubber gasket strip #6 cannot be a source or cause of oil leakage. It only contains and directs leakage from above.


FWIW, your leak probably originated from the camshaft seal #19 and was not caused by any repair.

Maybe the camshaft seal could have been replaced during the service, but if it was not leaking at that time many people do not.



On the plastic cover:
Plastic tends to harden and crack as it ages, as does the rubber seals and gaskets.

Nobody removes the rear cover to replace a timing belt.

The bolts that held the outer cover to the inner cover probably were frozen and the nuts turned inside the rear cover and cracked it...this is pretty typical and happens a lot.
(There is a bolt hole in the lower cover that is probably broken out too, you just haven't found it yet.)

Few would replace the cover for cracking as it is not critical, it's only there to keep dirt and chunks out of the timing belt area.



Customers don't want to comprehend that this stuff happens and it would drive the price of a simple timing belt job through the roof....and add at least a couple days wait time to the repair.



Again: If nobody has replaced your camshaft seal #19, then you still have a leak.


HTH

horta1212

It's a small crack and it's a small leak. It could have been leaking far before the 3 year mark and I just never noticed. Also, it may not have leaked for awhile until enough vibration from driving caused the crack to widen and the gasket to no longer hold the oil well enough.

It's obvious that the bolts were overtightened during the repair because all three plastic pieces had been cracked at the bolt spots. Piece 7 cracked at gasket 6 as well. I'm all for a better explanation, but the signs don't appear to point to anything else.

horta1212

Hmmm, good to know. It's still torn down, I'll take a closer look at that spot and see if I can find the internal source of the leak. I agree that the even the back cover shouldn't be holding oil as it's generally not covered in oil. What you say makes sense and I'll dig deeper. Thanks.

horta1212

This was found, as I mentioned earlier: "all of the plastic cover pieces (#1,3,7) were cracked at the bolt holes." That's part #1.

ezone

I have a reading comprehension problem LOL

horta1212

Lol, no problem. You've been very helpful. I came here to help, and got helped.

In reality, if I find the real oil leak. I could glue the plastic bits back together and be just fine since it should never have been holding/touching any oil to begin with, right?

ezone

IMO yes you could glue it together.


After you get the cam gear off and BEFORE you get the cam seal out, note carefully how deep it is installed. It is probably set in a bit deeper than flush.

When you get the cam seal out, you will probably find the lip of the seal is hardened, no longer pliable and cracks easily wherever you try to make it flex.


Valve cover gasket needed? Dabs of sealer in the corners?
Has the front cam cap been lifted up, and does it need sealant applied under it again?

horta1212

Yeah, the other seals like around the coil pack holes were just as you describe: easily cracked and very rigid feeling.

Since I was going in to replace the head gasket, I bought a pack that contained a lot of the seals along the way down and the valve cover gasket was one of them. The new valve cover gasket has been prepped and extra sealant has been placed in any corners. Apparently I got the wrong headbolts though so I'm prepping everything to go back together while shopping for the bolts and anything else that might need replacement that didn't come included in the gasket kit.

Which side is the "front" of the camshaft? I did have oil leaking from the opposite side of camshaft from the timing belt about a year ago. I had replaced the cap/seal over there back then.

emich

check the valve cover gasket . many leaks come from there and they can go to the timing belt area. if this is the case it's easy fix. if the reason is elsewhere don't bother. when become worse you'll take care. next time you open the timing belt compartment replace cam and crack seals and check for leaks from the oil pump they are common. I had a leak from there and I patch it using j-b weld. it works great so far (6000 mi.) and is very easy

mikey1

yes depending on how many parts its in, or how many cracks there are,

last time i did my timing belt i only had one bolt/plastic part broken from the cover, i just used crazy glue to glue it back together, the gasket was still in good condition and re-useable,

the timing cover doesn't need to be air tight, its really there to prevent rocks and other debris from flying up into that area, as well as preventing dust

ezone

No no no, don't put sealer on anything until you are assembling. You do not want that stuff to set up until parts are bolted in place.

RTV sealant goes in the corners where the cam humps are. The gasket makes about a 90* angle to go over those humps, the RTV helps seal those corners.

Make sure to have the head checked for flatness.


There is no need to replace head bolts on that engine unless they are damaged somehow.
They are normal standard bolts, not TTY type.


'Front' of the engine is where #1 cylinder is, the end with the belts.

horta1212

Gotcha. I'll pull all the sealant out until I'm ready to put it all back together. I forgot to get the head checked for flatness. I def should do that since I didn't see any super obvious issue with the head gasket.

There's definitely a lot of people going both ways on whether the bolts are TTY or not. Some people even say normal bolts have the possibility of failing on you after a reinstall and I didn't really want to risk having to deal with a broken bolt in my block.

ezone

The torque specification dictates they are not TTY.


A TTY spec would read something like 'tighten to x ft-lb, then tighten additional 90 degrees, then tighten an additional 90 degrees'.