Rep Power: 0

I have a 2003 Honda Civic EX. I bought it with 85k on it nearly two years ago, and it now has about 105k. Several months ago, I was driving to work and the check engine light popped on. I thought hmm. Strange, it's driving fine. Well after work, I will go get it looked at. But right as I completed that thought, it started jerking like it was trying to accelerate/shift and couldn't. I was merging onto the highway. I quickly pulled over and stopped, but did not turn the car off. I waited a minute, and hobbled off of the highway. I took it to the mechanic teacher here at the school district that I work for, and he said it said something about check valve timing. He cleared the code and drove it, and said it was not acting up. It was fine for several months after that.

Then a couple of weeks ago, it happened again. The auto mechanics teacher referred me to a regular mechanic, and he said he was a little confused as to why that code would come on. He said something about my engine not having variable valve timing and asked if I had had the timing service done. I had not, and I know it was overdue, so I had him to complete it. Same thing after that-he cleared the code and said it did not act up for him. He told me to watch it closely and to call him if it came back on and we would go from there. Well, two weeks went by and it was fine. But Saturday it came back on, and I tried not to drive it very much. On the way to work this morning, I was nearly to the office and when I tried to accelerate after stopping at a stop sign, it did the jerking thing again. I took my foot off the gas and let it slow and then gently eased on the gas again and made it to my office. It drove fine the rest of the way.

Has this ever happened to anyone? The mechanic mentioned a cam sensor but I don't know anything (ANYTHING) about cars.

 
Rep Power: 209

sounds like an intermittent electrical problem,

from what you have described i would say the cam sensor and/or crank sensor is faulty,

if you look at the timing belt cover you will see a rubber grommet with a wire attached to it near the middle of the cover, that is your cam position sensor,

if you look closely at the crankshaft pulley from the top, you will see an electrical connector at the back, that wire connects to your crankshaft sensor,

these sensors can be quite difficult to change as the timing belt cover needs to be removed,

if you dont know what your doing i would take it to honda and have them read the codes for you

 
Rep Power: 0

Thank you, Mikey. I just talked to my mechanic and he said basically what you did, electrical problem or cam sensor. He can't get me in today though and I hate driving it like this, but I have no choice. I hope it can wait until tomorrow and the car won't break down completely and do more damage. I surely do not know what I am doing so I will be letting him take care of it. All I can do is check the oil LOL. I also hope it isn't really expensive. I just spent several hundred on the timing belt services.

 
Rep Power: 209

the sensor wont be to expensive, all the cost will be labor, it is almost the same amount of labor as replacing the timing belt

 
Rep Power: 0

Oh yuck. Well, I hope it's not that, then.

I went to Auto Zone at lunch because I needed new windshield wipers anyway. I asked him to pull the code and it was the same one, about valve timing. I told the employee what I had been told and he said, wait. You DO have a variable timing engine. Look at your engine. See the VTEC? I said oh! Well then. He said it sounded to him like an oil or gas issue and suggested that I do a gas treatment to make sure there is no water in it causing the sputtering. They had it on sale and it was really cheap, so I bought it. He said that tons of people have been coming in with the same symptoms and that bad gas is a common problem now. However, I am still taking it to my mechanic tomorrow, though. I want to rule out any major issues and not just rely on auto parts store advice. Although sometimes very knowledgeable, I know they are not actual mechanics. I just hope and pray that it is fuel or oil related and not something more. I also have an oil issue, although I have no idea what. My car uses oil a lot (in two weeks it went from full to halfway between both dots) and it's not leaking onto the ground. So I guess it's burning it? But my engine does not smoke. So that's another thing to worry about :/

 
Rep Power: 186

It would be nice to know the exact code that's being read.

You may have a problem with your VTEC unit located on the back left side of the cylinder head if you're looking at it under the hood. The two major parts are the solenoid itself and a separate oil pressure sensor used just for VTEC. The car won't go past 3500 rpm or so if VTEC is not working properly. It will feel like there's a governor on the car, which is basically your ECU keeping you from causing damage to the engine. It still does sound electrical and intermittent at this point, but there's two connectors on the unit, one for the oil pressure switch and the other for the solenoid. I'd disconnect them and spray some contact cleaner in them. It could be as easy as a little bit of corrosion. Worst case is you have a problem with the solenoid or the pressure switch. There is also a screen to keep crap out of the vtec system. It could be clogged, but I think your problem would be more consistent if that were the case.

Pictures for reference below:

 
Rep Power: 0

Wow, Matt, thank you that was very helpful. Pictures and everything

I didn't catch the number of the exact code (I think it was 1259?? I googled and found this on this same site: If the engine oil level is low, the engine computer turns the engine light on (Code 1259) and does not allow the engine RPM to go above 4,000. That sounds like exactly what I am experiencing. The employee mentioned what you described-something about a VTEC solenoid and oil sensor. When he plugged it up, it said "definition not found" but he went inside and looked it up and said it was as he thought, something about valve timing with the VTEC. I guess I will find out for sure tomorrow when I see the mechanic.

 
Rep Power: 186

P1259 VTEC System Malfunction

You said you're loosing oil, but it sounds like your monitoring the level, so low oil level doesn't sound like an issue at this point. However, if you have some sludge build up, pressure may be an issue. If the VTEC oil pressure sensor doesn't sense enough oil pressure, it won't engage VTEC and the ECU (cars computer) will put you in limp mode.

If the VTEC gasket screen is clogged up, that will probably give you a glimpse of what's going on overall in your engine.

I'd tell you to run some full synthetic oil, but that will cause all kinds of other problems. It would start to clean the engine up, but it would probably cause all kinds of leaks from cleaning up crap around the o-rings and gaskets.

IMO always risky buying a used car because you truly don't know what kind of maintenance was done for the first 85K miles in your case.

 
Rep Power: 0

Guess what I took my car to get an oil change and told them about the problem I am having. The man said oh that has nothing to do with your oil. Low oil won't cause the engine light to come on. I tried to explain about the VTEC thing, but he was still adamant. So I stopped trying and just asked him to go ahead and change the oil (it was due for a change anyway, low or not). And lo and behold, on the way home, the light clicked off and the car drove perfectly. So apparently I just need to keep monitoring and make sure that it stays full to avoid the jerking problem.

But when it rains, it pours. On the way to the oil change station, I heard a funny noise when I shut my door. I thought well that's weird. I wonder if the window isn't all the way up or something, so I touched the button. BAD idea. It didn't get stuck. It didn't roll down and stay there. It CRASHED to the bottom of the door. Just flat fell like a rock and wouldn't roll back up. They said it's the regulator and would cost $200-300 to fix. So Matt, I have to agree about buying used cars being risky. Apparently, the person who had it before did NOT take care of it. And I decided to try to sell this thing as soon as I can. I am so frustrated with it.

 
Rep Power: 268

Keep an eye on your oil level. I have had a constant leak for a while and when the CEL would come on I knew it needed 2 quarts. Not the best system, not recommended. My CEL always came on taking a turn since the low oil goes to one side and you lose the oil pressure needed for VTEC. If you get another code soon let me know and I can send you my used solenoid. It works but I replaced it hoping that my code would go away, but the code was from a missing bolt in under the valve cover.

Good luck with the window too...

 
Rep Power: 209

your oil level should never get to the point where a light comes on, if it does it is WAY TOO LOW, to the point of being dangerous,

low 2 quarts? that is more than HALF of your engines capacity!

just check your oil once or twice a week (depending on how far you drive) and top up as nessessary, it only take a few mins

 
Rep Power: 0

Thank you very much, Bobsagator. That is a very nice offer. I will keep you posted! And I ended up getting the window fixed for only $140. I LOVE my mechanic, LOL. He does great work and never overcharges me. The oil change place wanted $200+, and two days to do it. He fixed it in a few hours. He was loaded down with work but he got me in because we are due for lots of rain. I really appreciated that, and I really appreciate all of you and your helpful information.

I will keep a CONSTANT eye on my oil level. I know Mikey, it did get dangerously low, and that is what concerns me. I had been checking it once a week and it was steadily decreasing. I took pics with my iPhone (they are a little blurry bc I tried to get close up) and I will try to attach. The engine light came on (the VTEC malfuncion code) only a few days over two weeks since my mechanic alerted me to the problem. He said "Are you way overdue for an oil change?" I said, "No, sir, I still have a several hundred miles until I am due. Why?" He replied, "Well you were dangerously low on oil. Did you know that? I added two quarts." I told him that I didn't know that, but would be very diligent in checking it now that I know there's a problem. Because there wasn't ever any oil on the ground, I naively assumed the oil level was always fine. Now I know that is not always the case and I will watch it. What concerns me is how quickly it got low enough to affect the VTEC and cause the engine light to come back on. My mechanic actually said that I should really just get a new car. He said when you start having lots of oil loss and it's not a simple leak you are just going to be pouring in money to a car that's not worth it. But the thing is, I really don't need to buy a new one right now. So I am just going to have to patch this one up and hope for the best. At least for another six months or so.

 
Rep Power: 0

Well it says enter the URL of the image when I try to insert image using the yellow icon at the top, and it's not on a website it's in my computer. But I wish I could let you see the pictures.

 
Rep Power: 518

Upload your pics to an image hosting site, like tinypic or the like.

THEN grab the URL and paste it in the box.

 
Rep Power: 0

Oh thank you so much, ezone. I tried uploading to Photobucket and was successful, but for some reason, they are not attaching. I am using the link for message boards, so I am not sure what the problem is :/

[/IMG]

Maybe you can just go to this link and see the two I uploaded. The smaller picture that has the iPhone camera roll frame on it was taken one week after the mechanic added two quarts, although I do not know what the level was before that. He just said it was dangerously low. The second picture is a week after that. So two weeks total after adding two quarts.

http://s1300.photobucket.com/albums/...eartcupcakes2/

 
Rep Power: 518

First pic looks like about a half quart down, but still well within the safe range.
Second pic looks like 1/4 of a quart down.
Both are well within the safe range.
But the oil looks kinda dark.









Didn't notice or bother to read much of this thread until now. Here are a few things I noticed:

This statement is probably why this person is working a lube rack. He has no clue just how wrong he is.

Yes, these engines set codes when the oil gets low enough that there is insufficient oil pressure to operate the hydraulically controlled valvetrain actuators (the VTEC system). The computer goes into a "limp home" mode to protect the engine as best as it can, because it thinks there is not enough oil in it.

This isn't the only possible cause of your issue, but low oil level is a major cause of that code across the entire fleet of Hondas that have VTEC systems. Someone that knows the cars well should be able to diagnose the problem easily, as long as the problem can be duplicated. (Low oil level that already got added to, and a pressure switch that intermittently doesn't switch are both hard to find when they aren't obvious. <----Did that make sense?)

SO it needs a window regulator.
No big deal.
If it worked when you bought the car, it was fine at that time.
Nobody could predict that it would break.
Has absolutely nothing to do with how the previous owner treated the car.


Along the same lines: Did you have a Pre-purchase Inspection performed prior to your final decision to make this purchase?


You didn't buy a brand new car.
Used cars are usually sold "AS IS", not "AS IF".
You get used cars for cheap, you can expect one to need a few things.
So far in this thread I see two relatively simple things it needs.


ALL engines consume oil by design. Some drink it fast, some you couldn't ever tell it's getting used. As an engine gets miles (and wear) piled on, they tend to use oil at a faster rate than when new. Some more than others. YOUR job is to keep oil in it, and change it regularly. When an engine oil level gets alarmingly low, there are parts that receive inadequate lubrication, leading to accelerated wear. Sometimes they do not recover, they use oil ever faster after that event.
If the oil gets low enough that the RED OIL LIGHT comes on while driving (sometimes viewed as the "Gravy Boat Light"), that is usually too late. It lost almost all oil pressure. Bearing damage is imminent. Severe damage has likely already happened.


A quart of oil consumption per 1000 miles is quite acceptable. Maybe not desirable, but acceptable.... Your engine only holds 3.5 quarts of oil though. You really should be checking the oil level every time you get gas in the tank. Add a quart of oil when needed, when the dipstick hits the low dot..

It could drink a quart of oil every 300 miles. As long as you can keep up with it and keep it from running low, it can still live a long life.
Barring external leakage, be aware that the main cause of oil consumption on high-mileage engines (piston rings) can only be addressed with an overhaul or replacement. Only you can decide if the cost is worth it.


My GF's Saturn uses a quart of oil every 500 miles if she drives all in town. Might go 1500 with all highway miles before it uses a quart. I have to check her oil at every gas fill up.

 
Rep Power: 367

just for the records, your paying the timing belt job was not wasted money, rather saved money if anything happened.
and most people that does not own (and many that does) does not know the vtec works on oil pressure, so it's a possibility.
I also seem people putting "vtec" in engines that does not have them, so be careful there.

however, you said your car is an EX, so it should have had vtec from factory, so it *should* have vtec.
look for another mechanic for a second opinion, or third. someone that deals with import cars would help.

 
Rep Power: 209

that oil looks VERY DIRTY!

mine is not even half that dark after 5,000 miles when i change it

 
Rep Power: 0

By explaining about the window and the timing service, I didn't mean to intimate that it's because the car is faulty. I know that timing belts need to be changed and that it's regularly scheduled maintenance and to be expected. As far as the window goes, I also know that my car is nearly 10 years old and things are going to break. I mentioned those because I just keep pouring money into this thing, and I am tired of it. I did have the car inspected pre-purchase and it had a clean CarFax. Apparently that doesn't mean a whole lot :/ Anyway, I am really sorry if I seem to be griping. That is not my intention at all. I am just worried and need a car that doesn't cost me a ton to fix/maintain. When I bought this car, I had to get something, and something cheap. I had gone through a very bad divorce because of my ex-husband's infidelity, and although ordered by the judge to pay off my current car (a Toyota Solara), he paid on it for a year and then three payments shy of payoff, he had it repossessed. I had no credit because everything was in his name during our marriage (I didn't have to work and went to college and did volunteer work) and I was VERY limited in the kind of financing my bank would give me. So, I did what I had to do. I thought I was making a wise choice in buying a Honda with only 86k at the time of purchase. But like has been mentioned before, it's always a gamble when you buy used. By no means do I expect perfection out of a used car.

As far as the oil, I too noticed that it was dark. I am not sure why, because I was not over my oil change miles at all. And the mechanic added oil to it so I am not sure why it looks so dirty.

And guess what :/ It's been a little more than two days since I got an oil change,and this morning on the way to work, it started acting up again. The light came on, and when I accelerated quickly to merge onto the highway, it started jerking again. My car has been sitting since 7:15am at work, and when I got to lunch around 12, I am going to check the oil. But SURELY it's not already low after two days. I'm going to have the code pulled at lunch too to see if it's still the same one.

I bought an extended warranty, but my mechanic will not work with them. He says they are a pain. So if it is something major and is covered, I will have to find someone who will.

 
Rep Power: 209

what codes have been read? or do you know?

the original code was about valve timing was it not?

if so, i will stand by my original comment about it being a faulty crank or cam sensor, has anybody even suggested a sensor to be replaced?

i still say this is an electrical problem/sensor problem, nothing to do with your oil or oil level,

its getting a bit confusing now, how many duifferent people have looked at the car? what codes were read?

 
Rep Power: 0

I know. Mikey, I am confused too :/

The auto mechanics teacher here at my work has looked at it, another mechanic, and the person at Auto Zone just gave his opinion after pulling the code. The first time the code was pulled, if I remember right, the auto mechanics teacher said something about valve timing or something similar. The second time, he said it was the same. The third time, I asked the person at Auto Zone and he said 1259 - something about the VTEC. The regular mechanic said something about a cam sensor at first too, so it may in fact be that. At that time, he was too busy to thoroughly inspect it (he was performing the timing service and had several other projects going) because he said the light went back off and told me to drive it and if it came back on to come in. He drove it for a while and it did not act up with him. It did come back on two weeks later, but then when I filled it up with oil it clicked back off. Now three days later, it's back on. I'm going to Auto Zone at lunch to have them pull the code again and this time, I will write it down.

Oh and I forgot to mention, the oil light (the gravy boat looking thing) has never come on in the two years that I've had it. I know that doesn't mean nothing is wrong, I just wanted to let you all know that in case it helps any.

 
Rep Power: 209

does the oil light you are talking about come on when you turn the key to the on position? BEFORE you start the engine?

if the answer to that question is yes, AND that same light has never come on while the engine is running, then you do not have any problem related to your oil system at all,

i am still standing by my original post, cam or crank sensor, if i had to take a guess between them i would bet on the cam sensor,

to replace the cam sensor all that is involved is loosening the valve cover, lifting it up a bit, removing the upper timing cover, then replacing the sensor,

that should be less than an hours work for most competent mechanics, if i was in your shoes i would have it done and hope for the best

 
Rep Power: 0

Yes Mikey, you are right-it comes on then goes off and does not come on while the engine is running.

Here is what I found out at Auto Zone:

P1259 - VTEC System Malfunction (same as last time...)
Possible Causes:
Open or Short Circuit Condition
VTEC Solenoid Valve Fault
VTEC Pressure Switch Fault
Blocked Oil Passage

I called my warranty company and they are supposed to be finding me a repair shop. My mechanic will not deal with them :/ although I can't blame him. It is a hassle. But, my mechanic said I don't need to worry about the VTEC right now because he thinks I need a new (or at least used with lower miles) engine because of the engine consuming lots of oil. He said the seals are bad and since I need a new engine, there is no sense in fixing the VTEC on this current engine. So, I am waiting to hear back from them.

Oh and I checked my oil and it is full (above the top dot) and is not dark. It's a light amber color and is transparent. I think that's how it's supposed to look, LOL. Not like dark sludge.

 
Rep Power: 209

okay then,

going by the new info you provided, the problem could be in the VTEC system also or a combination of that and the sensors, impossible for me to diagnose on here, i can only make educated guesses with the info provided,

and just a FYI....the oil level should never be above the top dot on the dipstick, it should always be between the two dots, preferably higher than lower, but anywhere between is acceptable,

 
Rep Power: 518

Cam Position Sensor has nothing to do with a P1259 VTEC code.


P1259:
The computer did not detect that the pressure switch changed states when the VTEC solenoid was activated.

Possible:
Solenoid
Valve
Pressure switch
Wiring
Insufficient oil pressure for the system to operate.

If this thing works most of the time but randomly doesn't-- and sets the code, I might take a wild guess that the pressure switch is flaky.


A used engine might be a crapshoot too. Maybe go for a new engine under warranty? At any rate, you will still need to check your oil regularly.
Some shops will, some won't.
Some warranty companies are definitely on the up-and-up, some already got your money and you don't get squat.
Many aren't worth the paper they are printed on.
We may know this ahead of time, and don't want your disappointment to rest on us specifically.
If YOU make the calls and get rejected, then you should be upset with the warranty company, not the mechanics.

There are techniques for dealing with them, and some "creative wording" must be considered prior to initial contact. You have to know what should be covered--and why, and what normally is never covered. Read the contract.

I sure wouldn't deal with them. I'd let you do it.
My service manager is pretty good at getting stuff covered, but the bean counter on the other end of the phone has the final say in what gets paid.

From my standpoint, you wouldn't believe some of the stupid stuff the warranty companies want done sometimes. "Waste a dollar to save a dime" comes to mind. Incredibly aggravating at times.



Another option: You pay the mechanic, then attempt to get reimbursed by the company.

 
Rep Power: 0

Mikey, do you think it might have been a little above because it had only been sitting for a few hours? I drove it to work and then checked it at lunch time. Usually, I let it sit overnight and check it in the morning. I don't know if that's the case or not. I know you can only give your opinion from what you hear without seeing the car, and I do appreciate all the help you have given.

Yesterday on the way home from work, the engine light went back off again and didn't come back on after I went home, then drove to get something to eat, back home, and then to the grocery store a little later. But then when I came to work again this morning, it lit back up :/

So ezone, it sounds like what you said - it seems to be a little random. And I will definitely try for a new engine, but I don't know if they will go for it or not. We will see, I guess. Oh I am not upset at all with my mechanic. I love him and just wish he could do the work. I trust him and want him to do it, but I definitely understand why he chooses not to deal with them. My loan officer said this warranty group (called The Warranty Group, LOL) is pretty good so I hope I will not have too much trouble. I am trying to find a servicer in this area that will work with them. I thought of paying for it and being reimbursed but the mechanic said it will be a few thousand and I just don't have that. I am looking up the coverage details and will give them a call soon. I couldn't reach them yesterday. I had to get a lot done and by the time I tried to call, they were closed.

 
Rep Power: 209

from what you are describing, this should not cost anywhere close to "a few thousand" at all,

intermittent problems like this are normally electrical problems like i first stated, i still say this is a faulty sensor, wether that is the cam sensor, crank sensor, or a vtec related sensor, im not sure, but im still saying a sensor of some sort, or there is a very outside chance it could be faulty wiring/faulty wire/faulty wiring connection somewhere along the way, but that is much less likely

it is best to check your oil with the engine warmed up, shut the engine off and wait for about two mins, then check the oil, make sure the vehicle is on a flat, level surface, this is when you will get the most accurate reading,

a "touch" above the upper dot is fine, just try to keep it below, in between the two dots, preferably higher than lower

 
Rep Power: 518

Follow the money. See who gets to line their pockets from selling those warranties.

Of course it's a GREAT company. He makes a crapton of money off of the sale. He's never had to actually USE them, so he wouldn't know. He's nothing but another sales maggot.

Truthfully, I have never heard of this company. But I am not the person that ever deals with extended warranty companies either. I realize I'm sounding rather pessimistic, but I have seen a lot that are straight up ripoffs.


Easy enough to google: the warranty group, and: the warranty group complaints


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

For the CEL and running complaint, I'd say either the VTEC pressure switch OR the complete VTEC valve assembly (comes with a new switch in it). If they will cover it, go for the complete valve assembly.

New engine would be for the oil consumption issue.
"New" may not come with the VTEC stuff you are having the CEL/code problems with, so be aware of that and address it if/when the time comes.

 
Rep Power: 0

Thank you again, Mikey and Ezone. I have an appointment with the local Honda dealership today. They are the only one around me that will work with them. The check engine light has been going on and off, and it went off Friday and stayed off all weekend. And this morning, it did not come back on. That's great, I have a service appointment to address the issue and it's not happening, LOL. But I know the mechanic will take a look anyway, and I have the print out from the last time it was on so hopefully they can go from that. And it's timely anyway, because I got a recall in the mail on Friday evening. So I can just go ahead and have that done, hopefully. Something about faulty wiring in the low beam headlights that can cause them to fail.

Mikey, the mechanic I have been using said it would be a couple/few thousand for an entire engine replacement, not just for the VTEC or other sensor repair, and that's what he recommended. So we will see what Honda says. They are supposed to report back to the warranty company directly with their diagnosis and recommendation.

I checked my oil last night and it's been about a week since my oil change. It's still full (touching the top dot) but the oil looked a little dirty. No where near the color of the previous pictures, but it looked a little grungy, especially toward the bottom of the dipstick. I don't know if that's normal or not.

I don't think you are trying to be pessimistic, Ezone, because I know what you are saying. You are being realistic and so am I. I have no illusions that they will willingly part with a lot of money without a hassle, if they approve it at all. I guess we will see after today.

 
Rep Power: 0

Okay, so now I am REALLY confused.

I just got back from the dealership. I had intended to leave my car for diagnosis/estimate purposes for the warranty company (like both they and the dealership advised me to do on Friday). I pull up on the service drive and the service advisor meets me. I tell him what's wrong and show him the print out from the last time I had the code pulled. He says okay, I am going to save you a lot of diagnostic money. Where do you get your oil changed? I said at our ISD's auto tech shop or a lube facility close to my office. Why? Okay, that's your problem, he says. He said because I am not putting on an OEM Honda oil filter, it is causing VTEC system malfunction and abnormally high oil comsumption. I repeated what he said and I said really? A generic oil filter can cause my engine to use lots of oil. And he said yes. I told him that I had just spent $40 Monday on an oil change and I really wasn't wanting to give him another $50 to redo it. I told them on the phone Friday what the issue and code was. Wish they would have told me that (and advised me of the $85 charge...my mechanic doesn't charge at all to diagnose) over the phone and saved me a fruitless trip.

I don't know what to do now. I still have no answers, the car is not fixed, and I have no idea what to do next. I told him I did appreciate him trying to save me the $85 diagnostic fee, but that trip really did me no good. Do you all think that an non-OEM filter can cause these kinds of issues? I called my regular mechanic and he said unless he just isn't aware of something, he didn't think so. But he said, go ahead and get an OEM filter from Honda and bring it to me. I will put it on for you, and when the issue persists (he doesn't think that is the cause) you can take it back to them and say okay, that's not the problem. Now what? I guess that's all I can do.