presence

I have a 2004 Honda Civic that ran fine last night. I parked the car, went into a store, and came back out. The car started and allowed me to back out about 15' before it stalled. Now the cart starts, but stops running within a second. This happened once on my toyota camry back in the 90s due to an automatic fuel shutoff, but the civic doesn't have one to my knowledge. I can smell gas in the front of the car if the hood is open after "starting".

I pulled the filter, cleaned it as much as I could (its a k&n filter), and even tried starting without the filter...but no joy.

I have checked the fuse and relay for the fuel pump and they are ok. I checked many other fuses that seemed associated as well, did not find a bad one. The battery is good (tests with 12.6 to 12.7 on load test), but to make sure I tried a different battery from my other honda, and no change.

It does appear that fuel gets to the engine, as it starts every time. I have not pulled the fuel pump or filter, as its in the tank, and everything I read says its unlikely to be the pump/filter. I haven't tested flow/pressue, as I don't have a mechanism to do so. If someone thinks its worth while, I can pull the back seat and check these items, it just seems like something electrical might be the culprit.

I did change spark plugs, because it was simple to do, and was due for a change soon anyway. No change in behavior.

No check engine light comes on, and the OBD-II readings show no error codes. When starting the immobilizer indicator shuts off like normal, and I can hear the fuel pump run.

Any ideas?

Matt_75

Maybe you rubbed a hole in the rubber fuel lines located in the engine compartment. I would do a visual inspection since you said you can smell gas.

I almost rubbed one in mine while is was sitting across my short ram intake pipe. Luckily I caught it and pulled one of the harder rubber grommets up from the oem air box installation to sit on the pipe so it stopped rubbing.

I would check piece #3 and #23 in the drawing below. Piece #12 is the fuel filter which, according the service manual, should only be considered for change if there is a drop in fuel pressure.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...L+PIPE+%281%29

presence

I found the cannister filter you pointed out as #12 on the chart, and it appears to be part of the evap system. There are no clamps holding the hoses to the filter, and there is no fuel/liquid in the lines. following it back, it looks like it might be a charcoal filter.

I did find pretty detailed instructions about how to replace the filter and pump on the civic, it does appear to be inside the gas tank. I would really like to test fuel pressure before I do this, since I'm not sure its the culprit. Any idea how to properly test the fuel pressure on the civic?

Instructions for replacing the filter/pump:
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post1665739

I didn't see any leaks in the engine compartment. I think the gas smell I get is from the area below the air cleaner. Unfortunately, I can't be sure.

ezone

#12 is a filter for the EVAP canister system.

The fuel filter is built in to the top of the tank/pump module. A fuel pressure gauge and proper adapters are in order if you really think you want to check pressure.
(Fuel pumps on these last forever anyway. I can count on one hand all the Honda fuel pumps that I have had to replace for actually being a bad pump, and have several fingers left over.)

Runs for 2 seconds, and the green key light isn't flashing angrily when it dies.......

The engine WILL SHUT DOWN if the camshaft and crankshaft signals are out of whack (sync).
If the timing belt jumped a tooth, the computer will shut down the whole mess to attempt to avoid major damage.

Unplug the cam position sensor, see if that allows it to start and run. If so, shut it off and figure out WHY the computer doesn't like what it sees from those two sensors.
Rattle noises from the timing cover area are BAD, very very BAD.


HTH.

Matt_75

That's where the soft fuel lines clamp/attach to the hard fuel line coming and going. You might want to remove the air cleaner and take a peek.

Yeah you're right about that canister filter. I thought for some reason it was part of the fuel line filter system, but I was wrong. Sorry for the misinformation.

ezone

I looked into this one time recently....Honda does NOT sell the actual fuel filter for many/most in-tank models. They will gladly $ell you the entire pump module though.

BUT there are instructions in the service manual on how to replace JUST the filter.

Aftermarket sells them.

Amazing, huh?

presence

No rattling noises from the timing cover. No codes at all from OBD-II though. Is this normal?

If I pull the TDC sensor cable, it runs. The car ran a little "off" when it was running whilst the TDC was disconnected. I didn't let it run long (few seconds) just in case something really is wrong back there. So what are the possibilities here:
1) The belt jumped a tooth
2) TDC is bad
3) ...
4) Profit

Is it worth replacing the TDC as a first step? It looks like a trivial change. I don't know how or have the tools to check the timing. Did it back in the day with a strobe light on a vehicle that had points...thats the limit of my knowledge of timing.

This vehicle was recently in the shop for noises near the timing cover...but it turned out not to be timing (what I was told). It was something else.

ezone

Not sure, need visual confirmation of timing.You mean the cam sensor, right?

Pull timing cover, check for belt jumped time.
It is in
1) a fail-safe mode, or
2) cam timing is really off.
Same reason the computer shuts it down.

If it ran long enough for you to KNOW it was an improvement over before (confirmation of my theory), now you have to find out what the computer doesn't like about it.


I LOL'd.
No.Doesn't matter how easy it looks. If the problem is elsewhere, it would be wasted effort. Right?
Besides, that sensor is rare to be bad. Yes, it happens on occasion, but your current issue is probably more likely to be timing belt related.

Yeah you do. If you think you can replace that sensor, you can check belt timing.
Shop manual.

Many libraries have service manuals and/or subscriptions to Alldata and/or Mitchell.

Hell, I bet you can google for it. Google Image Search for pictures of it.

Maybe you can even search for a DIY on this site.
That's ignition timing, not cam timing.

Back in the day?? Picture setting up a timing chain on a small block Chebby. Timing belt is similar. And probably far less messy.

Um, yeah. So what WAS the noise? What got replaced?

Pull those covers off, you may just find out what went on during that job.

Matt_75

Just curious why we're ignoring the "smell of gas" symptom which may be a leak causing a lack of fuel pressure. Because it starts and then shuts down?

ezone

He had the breather lid off?


Hey, the engine starts while the cam sensor is unplugged.
"Fuel smell" is not the problem. JMO.

presence

The gas smell reminds me of a system running too rich. Its not all encompassing. I did remove the air cleaner cover. I didn't see any issues with any of the lines going to that area...

Matt_75

Ok thanks. I was just curious.

mikey1

i would start by pulling the timing cover, check the belt tension and the TDC marks to see if the belt has jumped, if a sensor was bad you would mostly likely get a code/check engine light

i wouldnt start it again until you check the above, you are risking major valve/piston/head damage

presence

So let me guess. To remove the timing cover to just take a look, I basically have to go through the whole process as if I was going to replace it (taking off nearly everything on that side of the engine)...

ezone

You can check timing marks with just the upper cover off.

Turn the crank til the word "UP" on the cam pulley is at the top, line up the white timing mark on the crank pulley and timing cover, check the timing marks on the cam pulley.

If you have to actually retime it, then you are taking it all the way down again.

HTH

presence

This is the most "detailed" instruction set I have found for timing belt replacement...didn't see anything specifically useful for merely checking the timing.

http://www.ehow.com/how_7810959_repl...ming-belt.html

Do I just need to remove the three bolts on the cover to remove it?

antrmo

nope dont think so,remove valve cover and the top piece of plastic on the belt side,,,unless you need to see both top and bottom of belt, then yes.all cover needs to come off.which i think you need to do,not that bad really, belts and get a impact gun for that crank pully nut,,,, there tough.

ezone

Not sure. Went through this last night on Civicnoobies thread....

I rip everything down because I'm always doing the timing belt job. I can have the top cover out of the way in like 10 minutes. I can change the timing belts in my sleep. But I don't think I have ever tried to pull the top cover without having the PS pump out of the way.


The instructions would be useful is you can do the work (didn't read, just skimmed). Use just what info you need to get the upper cover off. (valve cover and timing upper cover).
Here's some pics to go with those

.....after the top cover is off, line up timing marks on the crank pulley....


Check marks on the cam gear



Ummm.....make sure the timing belt isn't floppy loose too. That would mean the spring on the tensioner probably broke.

If the marks don't line up right, tear it all the way down. Something wrong happened.

presence

I found my invoice from the dealership when they repaired the car last (14Jun12).

I notified them that there was a noise that was coming from what appeared to be behind the timing cover...had the car towed there in case it was timing...

"Found Tensioner Bolt Broke off and spring rubbing against belt, replaced new tensioner and t-belt and test drove".

Sounds related. The work has a 12 month/12000 mile warranty...hope its within that period of time (assuming its the belt, bolt, or spring).

Yep, 7k miles since then. I should at least pursue it.

ezone

I'd be really tempted to drop (tow) the entire mess in their lap.......but I'd also want to be well armed ahead of time....KNOW what the problem is......in case they balk and deny fault.

IF it isn't their fault, that's fine but I'd want to know ahead of time exactly what happened.



Back to checking the timing marks..... if it is out of time, stop there. Call the dealer, it's their baby.

If it isn't out of time, and the belt is tight, then.......something else needs to be done. Right?

presence

Took a look under the cover, the timing belt had jumped two teeth. Couldn't see any damage at all.

Took it to the dealer, they repaired it for free (insurance paid for the tow). Didn't have to threaten them either. Just mentioned it was related to the June repair.

Thanks for all of your help guys.

Kev

ezone

So what was the cause THIS TIME?

They don't just do this for no reason. Something is going on.

presence

They said that the bolt holding the tortioner had come loose. Do you usually use threadlock on these kind of things?

ezone

It's a "tensioner".

I think you may have much bigger problems going on here. They started just prior to when that bolt "broke off".

No, I personally do not Loctite them. (I might be the next poor sap that has to touch it next time!)

presence

The sad thing is...this engine was replaced about 3 years ago with a factory new engine.

I'm guessing there are some subpar mechanics working on the unit, its really hard to say.

presence

I do not think I will get a satisfactory answer to what happened previous to the bolt breaking off.

Any ideas? Should I just trade the damn thing in before I have more trouble?

Not car savy here.

ezone

You will have this in ALL walks of life, in ALL professions.

Sad thing is, you can't tell them apart from anyone else in the crowd.

I wish there were signs issued to certain people, that way you would know ahead of time...

Matt_75

ezone, can two teeth cause bent vales since these are interference engines or is that about the max slop you'll get with out bending valves?

ezone

2 teeth, no. It was still runable. It runs now. Nobody had time to replace 8 valves or more.

You would have heard a loud crackle noise, then complete silence after the valves bent.
It wouldn't run again without a large infusion of cash.

presence

Looking at my paperwork, "Cam Shaft Position Sensor" was written with some part numbers and a price...but it was scratched out. I'll have to ask them about it.