Rep Power: 175

New member and sorry to ask for help right off but I am desperate. 2001 civic with only 28000 miles. Took family to light show about 30 miles away. Drove fine there. Got in stop and go traffic for about a mile. Car shuddered and almost stalled and check engine light came on and ran a little rough. When I finally could pull off on side road car had no power and would only go about 20mph. Pulled over and popped hood. Exhaust manifold was cherry red. Called my brother and got my family home and will tow it home today. I will not know the codes until then. Oil looked good and temp never went above its normal reading. Please give me some suggestions on what to check when I get it home. I pray it is something cheap and simple. I am in financial distress with Christmas and all. The month before I drove it on a 1500 mile round trip with no problems and not even pending codes on my code reader. Merry Christmas and God Bless.

Ed

 
Rep Power: 811

im guessing clogged cat converter. very common for the LX/DX where the cat is built into the manifold.

 
Rep Power: 175

Got the codes, 1362 and 1361. Bought a new camshaft position sensor and started reading up on it. It looks like I have to remove the timing cover, is that correct? How hard is that. Another poster said that the Top Dead Position sensor may cause this, where is that located? Any help will be appreciated.

Ed

 
Rep Power: 517

This is not a vtec engine, right?

P1361 and P1362....If you are really lucky, the cam sensor is only disconnected or has some wire damage somewhere......

If the sensor is good, then those codes tell me to look at cam timing. It may have jumped a tooth or two.
Does it rattle from the timing belt area too? The tensioner pulley can lose its spring and let the timing belt jump time.

Yes you have to lift up the valve cover and remove the upper timing cover to get to the cam sensor, but it can be unplugged without removing the cover.

 
Rep Power: 233

TDC sensor is the camshaft sensor.

Yes you have to take the cylinder head cover and upper timing cover off to replace it. BUT, first look for bad wires/connections then check to see if the sensor is even bad first.

This is the sensor:


1. With the ignition OFF, unplug the sensor.

2. With the ignition ON (II), measure voltage from yellow/black to body ground on the harness side of the connector. Is there battery voltage?

YES- step 3

NO- repair open in the wire the PGM-FI main relay 1 and the sensor.

3. Measure voltage from green to body ground on the harness side. Is there battery voltage?

YES- step 4

NO- step 6

4. Measure voltage between yellow/black and brown/yellow on the harness side. Is there battery voltage?

YES- step 5

NO- Repair the open in the wire between the sensor and the G101 (ground). Basically you need to ground the sensor.

5. Change the sensor and see if the code goes away.

6. Measure voltage between ECM/PC connector A26 (green) and body ground by back-probing the connector while it's still plugged in. Connector A is the bottom connector when your looking at the ECM/PCM while it's still in the dash. Is there about 5V ?

YES- Repair the open in the wire between A26 and the sensor. It's the same green wire you saw at the sensor.

NO- step 7

7. With ignition OFF, disconnect ECM/PCM connector A and measure for continuity (ohms) from A26 (green) and body ground. Is there continuity?

YES- Repair the open in the wire between A26 and the sensor (green).

NO- Update or replace the ECM/PCM.

 
Rep Power: 175

Ezone,

Thanks for the quick reply. I have been reading up on this and someone said they change the camshaft position sensor and that did not fix it. Turned out it was the Top Dead Position Sensor. Pictures I have looked at show the same thing. Are they two Different parts? If so where is the Top Dead Position Sensor? My motor is the stock 1.7 and only has 28K miles. Sounds tight and no rattles.

Ed

 
Rep Power: 517

TDC sensor is the cam position sensor on this engine.
P1361 is intermittent signal, P1362 is NO signal.

Lazlong posted the diag trouble tree, use it.

Even with the low miles, I would strongly consider replacing the timing belt at that age.

 
Rep Power: 175

Ezone and Lazlong, I appreciate all the help. I will definately go through that check out procedure. When I got the car home and drove it off the tow dolly in to the drive way and it ran okay. Cleared the codes and drove just around the block about a quarter mile and back to driveway. It looked like the exhaust manifold/cat was getting red again. No CEL or pending codes. I have a couple of days to check this out. I am going to drive it a little tonight and see if it gets really red. I haven't really looked at this car before so I don't know if the cat/manifold is supposed to get that red. I don't think that is normal though. It appears that my problem is intermittant but since I bought a new sensor I think I will go ahead and install it. Are the 1361 and 1362 codes the kind that take several cycles to trigger a CEL code or will it trigger as soon as it fails? Merry Christmas to all.

Ed

 
Rep Power: 517

STOP DRIVING THE CAR

STOP RUNNING THE ENGINE

YOU WILL RUIN THE CAT if it isn't ruined already.

Fix the problem first!

The cat is NOT supposed to glow. It is trying to burn off excess fuel left over from the engine running so poorly. Something drastic is wrong.
The element inside the cat can melt or break apart causing even bigger problems.




I'm gonna be real offensive here and guess: You are an "appliance user", right? If the car still moves under its own power, everything must be ok? Since you are driving it and only looking for the CEL, I'm guessing yes.

Would you be aware if the engine doesn't run quite right, even without the check engine light? Since the cat is glowing, I'm guessing no. I'm real sure the engine runs pretty bad right now.




Code set criteria:
The cam sensor gives 4 pulse signals from the cam gear on every revolution. If the PCM sees more or less than 4 pulses for 30 revolutions it sets the P1361 code.
50 revolutions of the cam without the PCM seeing any signal will set the P1362 code.
So it could take as little as 60 revolutions of the crankshaft to set one code.... As little as a few seconds if conditions are right.

3 good trips will turn off the CEL but leave codes in memory.


Since it didn't reset the codes on your 1/4 mile drive, I might guess an intermittently bad sensor at this point, if the cat wasn't glowing. That makes me think something else is seriously wrong.
You already bought the sensor, go ahead and replace it.

Verify proper cam timing while the upper timing cover is off the engine. Get a service manual if you need to.
I know a P1361 can set when the cam is out of time, and that would probably explain the glowing cat too. AND it would be down on power. If you were really observant you would notice this.

 
Rep Power: 233

Agree. You're ruining your cat and $550 is the cheapest you're gonna find an OEM cat.

 
Rep Power: 175

I hear you guys loud and clear but I just had to see if the cat got red with the codes clear and the car running normally. I drove around the neighborhood for a good while last night so I could look at it in the dark. Car ran good and the Cat was NOT glowing at all. I have a thermal heat gun and checked the main body of the cat and it was about 400 degrees. I could not check the inlet and the outlet to test it because of the heat shield and access to them. I will now go through the check out procedure you guys provided but it is looking like my sensor is intermittant like the code says. I would rather it die completely so I know for sure when It is fixed. I really do appreciate your answers to all my quetions and will not drive it at least until after the sensor change. Spending today with the family and will give it a shot tomorrow.

 
Rep Power: 517

Normal hot cat temps are somewhere in the 400-600F range on a good running engine, but the addition of any extra fuel into the cat due to a poor engine running condition can raise the temps significantly, and in a hurry.

-------------------------------

From http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index...tal_glows_red/

How to tell what temperature a glowing object (metals) might be:
Doesn%u2019t really matter what the emitter is%u2026stainless steel, cast iron, tungsten in your light bulb, the temps are about the same for a given color. Generally accepted colors/temps are:

C, F, Color
400 752 Red heat, visible in the dark
474 885 Red heat, visible in the twilight
525 975 Red heat, visible in the daylight
581 1077 Red heat, visible in the sunlight
700 1292 Dark red
800 1472 Dull cherry-red
900 1652 Cherry-red
1000 1832 Bright cherry-red
1100 2012 Orange-red

-------------------------------

Aluminum tends to turn into a molten puddle without turning colors.

I notice the chart leaves out other colors like yellow, white, and bright as the f'n sun.

A 4 cylinder engine running under a load and trying to drive with 2 dead cylinders (gas pedal flat on the floor for several miles, can't go over 30mph) makes for a really freekin' bright cat (looked like some really bright orange neons under the car) that cat ended up completely hollow by the time it was over. We wondered if the carpet would melt before it cooled down.

 
Rep Power: 175

I did all the checks and everything checked good. Decided to go ahead and change the Cam position sensor because it must be intermittant. I have the valve cover loose enough to clear the timing cover. I have removed 4 bolts on the timing cover and something else must still be holding it. Please tell me it is a two piece cover and you do not have to take the crank pulley off. I looked with a mirrow and cant tell where it splits. Any body have a picture of the timing cover on a 2001 1.7. Thanks again.

Ed

 
Rep Power: 233

 
Rep Power: 175

Thanks Laz. I found another picture that shows only three bolts hold it on. I think I have everything loose and it is just stuck. I am trying to be careful and not break anything. You have been very helpful and I thank you.

Ed

 
Rep Power: 517

The upper cover, 3 bolts, they don't really pull quite straight up. You have to wiggle a bit, the forward corner comes up first, and it sort of hooks on the rearmost corner so that comes out last.
Also fun to reassemble correctly. Might be a bit easier if the valve cover was all the way off.

 
Rep Power: 175

Lazlong and Ezone, I got the sensor changed and all back together. It really wasn't that bad. Put about 50 miles on it today and all appears good. No CEL and no pending codes. Thanks for all the help and Happy New Year.

Ed