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Thank you lemoncivic that put a smile on my face.

 
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2cute, I am not trying to be critical of you in a very bad way. Do I feel for your situation? Yes, I do and I know it must be very frustrating. However, I don't like the way you say honda has become crap and is using their past reputation to build crappy cars. I am on my sixth honda and have always been completely, if not over satisfied with my cars. What you have to remember is that the people on this site are only a few of the hundreds of thousands of civic owners. Only the people who have problems and are angered seek a place to voice their frustration. Next, you bought a relatively cheap car and it's expected to not be of top-notch quality. I am in no way excusing major problems or problems that repeatedly occur but minor rattles and quirks are to be expected. As for the dealers, all I can say is if you want to be treated like a queen and be catered to, buy a lexus and you will see what customer service is all about. I think it is very obvious that your car is causing you way too much stress and is affecting your everyday life. Trade the car and be done with it. Most people in your position only get resolution after months or even years of constant fighting.

Oh, and no company is ruling over me. All my experiences with my cars and the service at my local dealership have been nothing but satisfactory

Main points, the members of this site are not representative of the civic market as a whole. Second, get rid of the car and be done with it. Third, don't expect to bash honda on a honda site and not get some contradictory opinions. Lastly, you do act as it is the norm. Your post both directly and indirectly convey that message.

 
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mbow there are 348 topics under VEHICLE ISSUES/PROBLEMS. Does that tell you anything? mmm ...... maybe that I'm not alone in feeling the way I do? Yes a lot of those are probably just oh well my rear deck rattles or the "H" on the steering wheel is annoying but guess what they are problems with the car. I don't recall once complaining about minor problems. I recall saying that I have had problems with safety issues like my brakes, or my transmission. As far as being treated like a queen NO that is not what I am asking for but I am asking to be treated like a PERSON!!!! I guarantee if you went into your dealership and they treated the way I have been treated EVERYTIME I GO TO THE DEALERSHIP you would be a little pissed off too. I could understand once or maybe even twice but everytime NO I think not. As far as trading it in no I don't think so I have not spent the last year dealing with this piece of **** car to just turn around and eat **** on it. I have put in to much time effort and money to just lose all that I would in trading it in or selling it. Once again I didn't ask for your 2 cents or for you to flame me. I asked people that felt the same way as I did to respond. Don't confuse that.

 
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O.K. This is my last post. I didn't mean 'queen' in that sense. Just that if anyone wants really good service at the dealership you have to go with a top brand that's all. I still just say get it over with and stop stressing about it. It isn't worth it. Just get rid of her and be done with it. Anyhow, I do hope you find some resolution and everything works out for ya. You never know, I could be joining you in the future. Good Luck, 2cute. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]

 
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Good luck 2cute. I was about in the same situation with my 97 Grand Cherokee. It was in the shop every 2-3 months, and the dealer was always an a$$ to deal with. Unfortunately I bought it used, so I couldn't get the lemon law. I had to unload it, but lost $8K on the deal because of being so far upside down on the trade. Luckily my Honda hasn't given me any problems, but I know that no matter how good a car company is, there will always be lemons. Hopefully things will work out for ya !

 
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You don't have to take it to court if you have an actual lemon...

Thats just dumb, and you'll be out of a LOT of money.

Did you do a search, or read ANY of my posts?

Have you talked to Frank or Jackie from A.H.?????


there are a few things you have to realize:

1. Your not going to get your money back unless you sue or take it to arbitration

2. If you sue, your going to be out of a lot of time/money yourself (at least initially)

3. If you did your research for real, you would know that the lemon law will protect you.

4. but you actually have to have a real lemon

5. a real lemon in MA (CA will be real close) says the following:
- 3 repair attempts - then you have to write a letter then a 4th attempt, they must fail after the 4th attempt - so it has to fail 5 times overall. You have to be able to prove the problem is signifigant AND detracts from the value of the vehicle (i.e. the chk eng light is always on or in my case the odometer was 4500 miles off - a scratch to the shift **** or rattle etc. wont cut it). - THEN on top of all this other BS you have to have absolute proof you took it in, I mean ALL paperwork.

6. It is easier to go through the manufacturer

7. be resonable - i didn't say do this do that when i got my car replaced - i said look at, my car is a POS - I'm trading it in, I've worked with my dealer to narrow my losses to $1500 dollars or whatever and i want you to help out... Jackie took it the distance and said yeah we'll do that, she arranged an appointment at and independent dealership to verify that there was still a problem, then they did "trade in assistance" - basically giving me a new car at no expense to me by eating up the difference between trade in and a new car. They even put in new floor mats, replaced my alarm, and installed factory fog lights for free.....

8. so honda is resonable - are you being resonable? - have you talked to the right people? (that is the people in mediation?) - have you sent them at least 1 letter by mail or fax (they respond well to faxes - calling them gets you nowhere).....

9. If you do these things, you wont need to sue.........

10. I probably still have all my letters - i can send them to you so you can get an example of what to send for results...

-m

 
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oh yeah:

Lemon Law - CALI

 
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Problem is this. I don't want to speak for 2cute but I don't think 2cute wants another HONDA. (Actually, I know for a fact that she doesn't). After going through what she's gone through I wouldn't either. I know tons of people who've had problems with cars and despise them and tell everyone not to buy that car after their experience. I know tons who do the opposite as well. I never once heard 2cute say to not buy a 2001 CIVIC. She just wants out of her car. She doesn't want to have to eat even $1500 in depreciation and mileage. I mean if you went to McDonalds and got an order of Chicken McNuggets and found a nail in one of them after you bit into it would you want McDonald's to just give you a new order of McNuggets? Come on! Put things in perspective, this is about treating people with respect... which she has had none of.

mattskav, I am glad things have worked out for you in a way you're happy with but, I don't think you're the norm. I think the fact that people have to deal with all that paperwork and inconvenience is enough of a burden. Clearly, you hold HONDA to a higher level and deservedly so. Their cars drive excellent for the price and in most cases you can just "weld the hood shut and forget about it". But in her case it isn't so. And right now, the jury's still out on this new 7th generation CIVIC. For me, I think this redesign was a mistake. HONDA left the INTEGRA alone for 8 years because they knew "If it aint broke why fix it?" This new model CIVIC was rushed because they felt pressure from FORD FOCUS sales. In 2000, FORD FOCUS outsold the CIVIC. When unrelaiable companies like FORD and HYUNDAI start to nip at your heels you panic.

 
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I agree that the 2001 was rushed, and a mistake on Hondas part.

I also understand the McDonalds example...to tell you the truth as soon as
I reach the breakeven point on my civic, it's gone, I just can't appreciate the civic
even though it's twice the car as the 01... I just lost respect for it - so next year or so it's bye bye.

You also have to understand that getting a new 02 is very possibe, getting you money back isn't. Honda will fight you like Bejusus not to take your car back for 2 reasons:

1. They have no real method of redeploying the car.
2. They have to take a very big loss from a previous year that causes accounting issues - not to say this isn't overcommable - but still it's a huge deal for them.

Best bets are to:

1. arrange a trade in at a honda/acura or honda/nissan dealer and see if honda will pick up the tab then (i doubt it) -OR-

2. get a new 02 honda and trade it in with 0 miles on it to minimize losses....

If your not meeting the lemon law guidelines, the chances that you will be awarded your money back are in the slim to none category. The lemon laws are established as resonable grounds to return a car. If you don't meet the stipulations under the lemon law, it's probably unresonable that you are going to win a case in court. Infact the judge may ask if you have used the lemon law channel, and if you say no, he/she will order you to try that before suiing.

In any event, I have never heard of a class action law suit that made the mfg take a large number of cars back, only fix the problems (i.e. ford and the head gasket problems).

 
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also it cost me exactly 0 to switch - no depreciation or anything.

 
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Alright arbitration YOU DO NOT GET YOUR MONEY BACK. What arbitration is, is you sit down with a "neutral" party and try to figure what is best for all parties involved. Lemon law or a case file under the Song-Beverly Act allows for the customer to recieve everything put into the vehicle. My car was in the dealership within the first eighteen months for the transmission (safety issue) on five ocassions.

cali lemon law:
The same problem results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven and the problem has been subject to repair two or more times by the manufacturer or its agents, and the buyer or lessee has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for the repair of the problem as provided in the warranty or owner's manual

The car was in the dealership within the first eighteen months for the brakes twice (actually more but they refused to document it) once again a safety issue. The rotors needed to be replaced at 5,000 miles they refuse to replace them because they don't see that as a defect. It was in twice for the alternator. Twice for the cv boot. It has been in for the speedometer twice they refuse to fix that since it can not be reproduced. It has been in there for a problem with the sensor in the seatbelts failing (SRS light came on and wouldn't go off).

There are service bullitens on the problem with the tranny, brakes, and speedometer. All of which they have refused to fix on MANY occasions. I finally got them to fix the tranny according to what is outlined in the service bulliten. Only after being sent in circles by the dealership the American Hinda customer service and a whole lot of managers within the company at different levels. American Honda told me that there were ABSOLUTLY NO reclamations on my car. Amazing that there were quite a few.

cali lemon law:
What is considered a reasonable number of repair attempts will depend on the circumstances including the seriousness of the defect. For example, one or two repair attempts may be considered reasonable for serious safety defects such as brake failure, depending on the exact situation.

With my car there have been more that what is viewed under the Song-Beverly Act to be sufficient attemps for American Honda to fix the problems with the car. I recieved a ticket because i couldn't properly stop at a stop sign due to the car popping out of second gear after down shifting to slow down and the brakes being as bad as they are. Think if a car had been coming and had hit me. What then???? I don't think I have EVER complained about a minor problem within this suit. Yes it is VERY annoying my car rattles like it's cool. The rear deck, something under the steering wheel, the door panels, the glove box, the dash I mean the list goes on and on. I really don't care about those thing. Yes they are annoying but I am more concerned with the fact I'm driving around a death trap.

As far as getting into a new Honda NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. I want out of this car and away from this company. For mbow I'm sorry but i strongly disagree



<< O.K. This is my last post. I didn't mean 'queen' in that sense. Just that if anyone wants really good service at the dealership you have to go with a top brand that's all. >>



I'm sorry but I can't accept that. No matter what you buy, top of the line, bottom of the line, or somewhere in the middle you should be treated like a human. Yes I understand if I bought a caddy or a lexus I would get probably better treatment than I would get buying a Toyota for example but, regardless I shouldn't go in there and have all the guys trying to pass me off or treating me like a dumb girl. "Oh sweety we will have to replace some parts for you" well what parts? "Oh hun don't worry about it" NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!My husband it treated a whole hell of a lot better than I am when it comes to taking my car in. They don't give him ****. They tell him what he asks and they don't try and squeeze as much money out of him as humanly possible.

The dealerships were all sweet and nice getting me into the car. I wonder why. As soon as something goes wrong it's like i have the plague and not at just one dealership not just two dealerships but three different dealerships. That would be why I am suing them for my car.

 
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&gt;I recieved a ticket because i couldn't properly stop at a stop sign due to the car
&gt;popping out of second gear after down shifting to slow down and the brakes
&gt;being as bad as they are. Think if a car had been coming and had hit me. What
&gt;then????

Don't be ridiculous, my car had the same tranny problem (ultimatley why I got a new one even with the fuel system problems My car dumped gallons of fuel on the highway while I was driving it.....). But The brakes stop the car, not the motor. They always have, they always will. That you didn't have your foot on the brake, and were driving the car too fast given the saftey concern, or even driving the car at all is your own problem (especially after you knew the car was poping out of gear). If you know something is wrong, and you do it anyway YOU are liable not them.


YOU NEED TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THE LEMON LAW IN FULL

CALI law
as for the Cali Lemon law

I quote:
If the manufacturer maintains a state-certified arbitration program, the consumer must submit the warranty dispute to the arbitration program before the consumer can take advantage of the presumption in court. Arbitration is an alternative to court proceedings. The consumer may assert the presumption during arbitration. Information about any arbitration should be described in the warranty or owner's manual.

LIKE I SAID YOUR SUIT IS FLAWED EVEN BEFORE YOU GET OFF THE GROUND, YOU MUST TRY TO ARBITRATE AND FOLLOW THROUGH ON THE PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED LAWS, IF YOU DON'T, THE JUDGE WILL DENY TO HEAR YOUR CASE - AND YOU WILL BE OUT OF A LOT OF MONEY. AS IT STANDS YOU HAVE PERHAPS A 2% CHANCE OF WINNING BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT DONE WHAT YOU NEED TO.

ALSO READ THIS PUB:

LEMON - AID

don't set yourself up for failure, do it right and you will get what you want.

 
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Unfortunately, I think both of you guys are right. The realities are what they are and getting out of a car is not like returning an order of chicken McNuggets. In the end, I just wish it was.

 
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Yeah unfortunatley not,

I mean think also about the number of people who DON'T have legitimate complaints (which there are 1000's of)

chx mcnuggs, its like: yeah whatever they loose probably 20 cents for the cost and labor.

cars, they have to eat the entire purchase price not just what the car cost them (the dealer already got their cut as did the shipping co's, banks, govts for tax, etc that money is already spent, and it adds up FAST!) 17g's for a civic after all that stuff....

And how could they get by re-selling lemons????? ow....

if you were honda you'd give people a hard time about it too.

But i think they are reasonable,
When a car meets the lemon law, they do whats right.

 
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Hold up I own a NEW CAR not even a year old Honda refuses to fix the problems with my car. Problems they know exist. So I am supose to be without a car. Yes I was going a speed reasonable for the issues concerning my car. If you drive an auto car then you probably don't understand down shifting and how it slows you down your car does it for you. Down shifting assists brakes. Brakes don't work then you don't stop. How do you know my foot wasn't on the brakes??? Yes I was braking as well I think i said that the first time i explained it.



<< If you know something is wrong, and you do it anyway YOU are liable not them. >>



If they know there is something wrong with the car and REFUSE to fix it THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE not me.

 
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I had a 5 speed. I know exactly what that problem was like.

did you get a chance to read the lemon - aid document yet?

 
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for the first year of the 7th gen. civic, of course it's going to have a few minor bugs, i know, mine has some too, but none of which can really classify my car to be a lemon. If you feel you might have something, why not give it a shot, but mine on the other hand, wouldn't even be concidered, by law, a lemon.

 
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i thought this was pertinent:
Cali - lemon law lawsuit

 
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Well see I found out what Honda will do with my car if they settle this case. They will wholesale it with a salvage title and then one of those little **** ant dealerships you see on the side of the road will pick it up and sell it not disclosing the salvage title. I was always wondering why in the letter my lawyer sent to Honda under the breakdown of what net loss for Honda will be he mentioned the resale value of the car. I asked a friend of mine who is the manager of the used dealership portion of the dealership I bought the car from and he told me. Either way I want this car to go away and I want to get the hell away from Honda. Honda will never sell me another car I refuse to own another Honda again.

 
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did you decide to go the arbitration route?

or are you making progress another way?

 
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I am currently going the arbitration route on my LEMON. From what I have heard it's not the best way to go but, it's my only real option at this point. Basically, my worst problem is that I had the infamous "seat rocking" issue...they fixed the problem three times and just made it worse. It's their (my dealers) technicians hack work that has caused this problem. They now say that the seat is supposed to wiggle back and forth. My passenger seat doesn't though. Interesting. If I can't get out of this car, I want this seat fixed to my satisfaction. I can't say that I'd ever buy a HONDA again. It is my feeling that the dealerships are so watered down that the technician's are less than stellar.

 
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Well my lawyer got a letter from Honda yesterday. My lawyer emailed me last night:

Jen,

I have gotten a letter back from Honda, and, as sometimes
happens, they are not making any settlement offer at this
time. I will mail a copy of the letter to you. The next
step is to file suit. I have drafted the complaint and will
file it tomorrow, sending a copy to you. Please give me a
call if you have any questions.

So looks like we will be purusing litigation. Hey maybe I can get them for civil **** now. I just want this car to go the f*ck away.

 
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What a bunch of jerks! They just wanna leave you hanging like that? that's some serious bullsh!t. Idiots! You think they'd know you're serious by now??!! They just think you're going to go away?? Do do it, don't give in to these corporate fu¢kers. They need to deal with the issues on these cars. Maybe in the future they'll try testing these CIVIC's instead of using us all as guinea pigs for their poor assembly and faulty parts.

 
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LMAO that's okay Honda just f*cked themselves up the a$$. I talked to my lawyer Honda said that they see nothing that signifies a lemon. As far as the lemon laws saying you have to file an arbitration first, not true, what my lawyer said is that the only advantage to filing an arbitration is it takes away any question when it comes to the asumption of i think its facts. Basically all it does is like when you go to trial you don't have to worry about proving the dealership had reasonable time to fix the problem and did not. You don't need to file an arbitration first. But as far as Honda f*cking themselves up the a$$ Cali lemon law says that the dealership must pay all attornies fees mine and their own. My lawyer gets paid $300 per hour. If they don't settle before trial when we go to court the jury will probably award civil fees. So it's all good i guess but it would be nice to get rid of this piece of **** car.

 
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It is kinda funny there have been a lot of people that have mentioned this is the first year for the 7th gen civic. One thing that needs to be realized is that any import will be in japan for instance for a year before it is brought over here so you would think that all the bugs should be worked out by then if not completely at least to an absolute minimal.

nycivic: as far as filing the arbitration that is probably a good idea but in the process of that if I were you I would begin looking for a lawyer. Call a lawyer that specializes in this area and ask if the NY state lemon law alows for all atornies fees be paid by the car company like it is here in cali if you would like I can ask my lawyer if he knows and if he knows of any lawyer in your state. Just let me know.

Hey I guess one plus to them not settling now is if i get a better return than I would have goten if they had sttled now I will be able to get either a WRX or the Evo VII or wait for the r34 gtr

 
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2cute: YEAH, I am planning to get a lawyer if the arbitration does as little for me as I imagine it will. I've got my LEMON LAW forms ready to go. It amazes me that they can't see that your car is a lemon. You're problems are far worse than mine. Mine scares me most because i feel like I could get seriously hurt in an accident. You have under the hood problems that are definetly serious problems that make the car a LEMON.

I'd go with the WRX. I'd never by a Mitsubishi, they build such crap. Remember the cover-up they were exposed for a year ago where they refused to repair/report countless GALANTS and ECLIPSES with faulty brakes? STAY AWAY! And the EVO will be in the mid 30's! I've known people who own the WRX and tell me that it can hang with almost any sports car out there. it'll smoke a FORD Mustang or RSX and can hold it's own with a CORVETTE.Plus, the reviews on it are ALL GOOD, not a bad one in the group. Especially since you like to drive a stick, WRX is the way to go. Plus it's loaded for under 25000. GOOD LUCK 2U!

 
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<< Once again I didn't ask for your 2 cents or for you to flame me. I asked people that felt the same way as I did to respond. Don't confuse that. >>


If you post on an open forum like this, don't expect people to follow your "conditions" on when they should or should not be responding to your posts. That's just the nature of the internet ... you're gonna get a response whether you like it or not. And especially on a Civic board like this one, you will have members defending Honda and responding to some generalizations that were made about the quality of Hondas, based on the bad experience of a few members.

If you don't want to see posts that disagree with you what you have to say, or that flame you, perhaps you should do your communicating by PM or email.

Sorry you got a lemon, but lemons existed before your car, and will continue to exist after your car. And each and every car-maker on this planet has them. No car-maker is perfect, including Honda. Maybe it was just plain bad luck that you ended up with one. Who knows... if you had bought you car one day earlier or one day later, maybe you would have gotten a perfect Civic

From a consumer's point of view, I do wish you luck with your lawsuit.

 
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Why respond to her then? Why not move on to the next post. I think she has a point. I mean she IS on the VEHICLE ISSUES/PROBLEMS board. This really is an area where people are likely to be complaining or asking for help don't you think??? If you enter this board to expect people to be raving about the great condition of their cars?? i could undersatnd flaming her on the GENERAL RAMBLINGS board - - but not here.

RONIN, I know what you're trying to say but, not everybody feels that it is their responsibility to deal with their own car problems. Some people feel that when you shell out 10's of thousands of dollars for a car that someone should be held accountable.

I just can never understand why people are so eager to defend HONDA even if your car is problem free. Do you think a corporate monopoly like HONDA needss you to back them up or cares that you're "flaming" a customer that you don't even know?

 
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<< I just can never understand why people are so eager to defend HONDA even if your car is problem free. Do you think a corporate monopoly like HONDA needss you to back them up or cares that you're "flaming" a customer that you don't even know? >>


Stating certain facts of life and the risks and realities of car ownership (in my previous post) doe not constitute "flaming of a customer I do not even know", and does not constitute a defense of corporate Honda. Or are you really that sensitive and close-minded to other people's opinions? Or is it just simply that you can't read?

And so what if this is the Problems/Issues forum? What the hell does that have to do with how other people reply?

Let me repeat for YOU, nycivic: this entire website is an open forum. Do not expect other people to agree with everything you say. And do not expect others to stay quiet just because you asked them nicely to keep their mouths shut. If you post something controversial or something others do not agree with, they will call you out. If you do not want to hear what others have to say or are not open to other peoples' opinions, then start your own website or forum where you can lay down your own rules and ban anybody who happens to not be on your side, and who happens to not be supportive of you.

Let me say once again, I hope she does win her case against Honda, because being a consumer myself, I can relate to how she feels about receiving a bad product. In her shoes, I would hate Honda too. And a victory for any individual consumer, is a victory for all consumers.

But if you want to keep believing that I'm flaming her, and that I'm defending Honda, then by all means, keep it up... it's your choice. But please go easy on all that crack you must be smoking.

 
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"But please go easy on all that crack you must be smoking." - just brilliant!