Da1lyDr1ver

iTrader: (6)

well this sucks. i hope you didnt sell your VAFC 2 yet seeing that it wasnt the problem...

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

yeah, higher compression can sometimes need colder plugs, but milling the head your looking somewhere around a 0.1-0.2 compression raise, I think. I don't think that is enough to change the plug, maybe jumping from say 9.5:1 to 11:1, then I would change the plug. And to hot of plug would cause problems at higher RPM's or whenever the engine is under a load. So while you may want to look into different plugs, I don't think the plugs themselves are the problem, but they may give a clue as to what the problem is

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

the vafc was doing me no good anyway. it was at +1 but really didn't even need that. ya i'll check the plugs today. maybe they're just getting old or something or the gap is wrong. i'm gonna keep the stock heat range but check the manual and see how low i can go as far as gap. it very simply sounds like a plug problem if this is only related to starting the car.

djmota

iTrader: (34)

Why tf havn't you scanned the code yet ?? save your self some time and hassle and get it scanned. driving with a cel is not going to do any harm.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Plug gap should be under the hood, air box maybe.... I forget

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Lot of times if the car won't even start corretly, you won't get a code. The car shuts down before a code can be produced.

djmota

iTrader: (34)

in this instance the code would be logged into the ecu. and could be picked up by a reader. even if the cel light turns off by itself the code will remain logged as a code or a pending code.
my advice is once it happens again restart it and run it ( as long as it running OK) and get it scanned as soon as its conventient. There is no need to go throught the whole engine when the ecu probably knows the problem already. I hope you get it worked out gearbox.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i was checking the plugs today and this guy i know came by and we talked about it for a while. technically the problem isn't from the cam gear since even at 0 i'm having this problem. and it only happens when the weather is cold. the gear btw is set at +2 advanced so i have a better idle when driving around (better than before). djmota was right about this. the drive idle is alot less shaky than before so i'd rather keep it that way. But for the starting problem he says its prolly the cold weather and all the mods. the ecu can't react to the extra air cause it is programmed to think everything is stock (startup a/f profile). which makes sense cause all this started after the exhaust was put on. the car starts up perfect in warmer weather like 60F+ I checked plugs and they were a bit lean looking, but i swapped em with some other used ones i had and reset the ecu again. oh well i just gotta live with it i guess.

and he was also sayin there was something we were supposed to do with the cam when everything was apart, and degree the cam afterwards. so because we didn't the cam timing might not be what it says on the cam gear, especially with milling and swapping the head/cam. i think there is no solution to this problem unless it involves putting the stock exhaust back on.

lewal

iTrader: (9)

let us know how it works out... I've got similar issues with my stock civic.

tinman

Damn these cars are stubborn, aren't they? Just read this thread, Gearbox. It Does sound like A/F ratio problem when it's cold. I don't know how extensive your mods are, but the ecu probably has limits in it's ability to adjust. You might want to check your air intake temp sensor if it's changing resistance properly from cold to hot. If you have a big exhaust you may not have enough back pressure either. Try putting your hand over the exhaust to restrict it cold and see if the engine smoothes out with some pressure.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

well i know there is definately more air than stock. I have I/H/E and pnp head with oversized valves. I think now that the system is "freed" up, its harder for the ecu to calculate the proper starting mix. I still haven't been able to explain how fast the car warms up...that is unless its running super lean at first. I start and let it sit 1 minute, then a few minutes of driving and the temp needle is at normal. used to take more than 5 mins all the time before the exhaust. Also I read somewhere that the ecu can correct a/f +/- 20% in closed loop. But I guess there is a hard map of startup conditions and thats where this problem lies. If the iat is cheap enough, i may just slap on a new one and see. but if its damaged i would think the cel would come on. i wish i got the code read when it happened but i'm sure it could happen again. we'll see.

now that i have a spare ecu, i wonder if i should see what jet can do with it?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i think i'm gonna check the IAC valve to make sure its not clogged. i can take it off without a problem right>?

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

DO you have an oil filter on?

I know on the F150 forums people where having problems with the K&N oil filters coating their mass air sensor and intake temperature guage, without those the car may have problems actually knowing how much air is coming in, hence giving it an "intial shock" problem.

Have you tried hooking the VFAC back up to see if it can over ride the rich cycle?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

i cleaned the tb last night even tho it wasn't that dirty. yes i have a K&N filter which i'm swapping for dry aem if it ever comes out for our intakes, but the car doesn't use a maf. there's nothing to really damage and I checked both the tb and iat and no oils around. I even tested the iac valve by puttin my fingers over the port and the idle dropped and stalled almost so that works.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

and someone told me there is a startup cycle that runs kinda like limp mode where the ecu doesn't really adjust anything other than throttle plate.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

yeah, you might be able to get around that with the VFAC. It will jump into the safe mode if it is having problems getting intial readings.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

also the ecu is supposed to adjust fuel +/-20% in closed loop (not wot). so i don't understand how its running lean. the plugs have some white stuff but not too bad. the vafc is kinda useless for tuning narrow throttle. it only really does anything for wide throttle. the way the car works, the ecu would just correct any input by the vafc unless you go wot and the ecu locks in the last fuel map. then the vafc can take over. but i almost never floor it so this is useless to me.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

what are some simple things that would affect start quality? battery, plugs, fuel pressure, air, anything else? it feels like the starts are just not as strong as they used to be...

tinman

MODS!

Anyway.... the engine runs on a preset air fuel map until it gets hot enough to go closed loop. I'm guessing that with your mods, you are just beyond the preset when it gets too cold. I am taking a stab here, but probably an ecu reflash to compensate for your setup would fix it. Of course, no one does this for the D17 that I know of.

BTW, our car has to have some form of mass air flow sensor. I have to look in the manual again... but the ecu HAS to sense air and air temp, I don't see how it can run properly under all conditions on throttle position alone.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

it has a MAP (pressure) sensor instead. ya i'm gonna agree with you on the preset start curve. i mean i only added exhaust, but that freed up alot of air and backpressure. what about some kind of upgraded ignition or something, or a plug that fires a stronger spark? maybe gapping plugs differently?

tinman

Ignition is already very good. I doubt you'll gain anything there. It may sound stupid, but have you thought about trying the resistor for the intake air sensor??
Maybe you can fool it just enough to change the air/fuel curve a bit.
Though I don't know if this affects start up open loop or not.

Ya really picked the wrong car to mod, didn't ya?? This frustrates the hell out of me. I really like my car, but can't do a damn thing to it. I am debating payments on an 06 SI now, at least it has some potential. I think the 7th gen was Hondas greatest triumph in making a car un-moddable, and their greatest failure, in making it un-moddable.... LOL. And I can't even do a K swap in Cali.

Seriously, I wonder if that hadn't been your best option to start with.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

ya thinking back the money i spent could easily equal a swap. but oh well. ya i'm taking your advice and pulling off stuff i don't need like the vafc and hvs among others. and i cleaned the tb so maybe that will help. weather has been warm so its still starting okay. the 7thgen sucks to mod and i don't think the 8thgen will be any better, well maybe the si but i can't stand driving in those new interiors. i just gotta accept the car is slow and move on.. how i wish i had an 00 si supercharged.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

What did you use to clean the TB, I messed up a mass air sensor once doing that. A mass air sensor and pressure sensor work on the same basic princpal, a wire the slightly streches and changes resistance with changes in the pressure/air flow, you may have screwed it with a strong cleaner.

The idea of it being out of range is possible, but I have trouble believing if everything was okay it would be out of range since it can vary the A/F by 20%. I'm doubtful you're pulling 20% more air through at an idle, and I think if everything was working okay you wouldn't have this problem. I mean others have simliar without this problem.

As for a good car to mod, try a GS-R An intake alone adds so much to the tops end.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

okay... as of now the car is running like a champ. it starts up awesome with no lag and the idle is great for the most part. but its also kinda warm like 65F+ even. i guess we'll wait and see. i didn't see a wire anywhere and like i said we don't use a maf, its a map. I just used some old cloth pants and TB spray cleaner to wipe the black stuff. maybe it was just sticky?? geez i sure hope this fixes it. the advance cam timing nearly fixed the normal idle so that the car doesn't shake hardly at all at idle when engine is warm. so now there is just the startup idle. but right now its starting up perfect and the engine starts immediately after the 3 turns. now i'm just gonna wait til the cold weather comes and hopefully it doesn't happen. if it does then i don't know what to do.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

btw that 20% is only at partial throttle once the engine is warm. when the engine is first started, it uses a default fuel map i believe running extra rich to warm the cat faster. whats really strange is how different the car runs from time to time. this afternoon it was sluggish and tonight it seems way faster even tho the temp maybe dropped only 10 degrees. its a strange car haha

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

still doing it. seems like on a complete cold start, it works fine cause the engine vrooms up to 2k rpms almost. but the problem is starting on a cold day after the car has been driven to warm and the rpm doesn't rev up. anyway, i took the typhoon out and put stock back. actually i'll prolly just stay stock cause of less noise and honestly i couldn't feel any power difference.

tinman

Gearbox, old buddy.... at this rate you should write a book on the 7th gen. I'm sorry you are having so many odd problems with your car, but it's pretty clear by now that this engine is just what it is. As for how the car runs, you are right. It HAS it's moods. Mine is stock except some suspension work. Sometimes it drives like it just wants to go by itself. Others it does not feel like it and I have to push it. It's the weirdest Car I ever owned. All around it runs good, but if you are into cars, you can really tell it's moods.

I doubt the 8th gen will take to mods at all. With the drive by wire throttle, I just don't know. Honda is hyping the SI like crazy, but we all know that as soon as we touch anything they'll void the warranty. Ultimately they MUST design environmentally friendly cars, at the expense of tuning. That's just a by-product of an all computer run engine. Now, I bet if someone made a good engine management system for the D17, it could be tweaked out pretty well. But no one does. The SI should be interesting to watch what will come out for it, but the EX and below... I won't hold my breath.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

haha ya at least driving the 8thgen made me feel better about having this 7thgen even with its problems. there is the aem ems for the d17 right? but really why bother anymore. i'm selling a bunch of mods and getting some cash back. you know the car feels faster with stock intake what a surprise! still getting start problems on warm starts. oh well. i'm almost positive its the exhaust.they should've made something like the integra exhaust that has some valve that closes for low rpm and opens for hi.

Jrfish007

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, that's nice, they got the same thing on the intakes, a valve for long runners and short runners depending on what RPM you are at.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

I think you might be onto something! First off, after burning through 5 gallons of gas tonight, I can't believe how much low end there is. From a stop, the car throws itself forward when I mash the gas. And above 4k, it starts pulling even more. Wow. I've also noticed that for warm starts (like 5 mins after turning the car off), the rpm is revving past 1k all the time. If this happens when the car sits for a bit, then I don't think it will bog anymore. I'll keep you posted once the weather gets colder but man if this works i'm gonna have to send you a thank you card or somethin.