JohnyBlaze

How do you tune while the stock ECU is in closed-loop and still adjusting the long term fuel maps?

We're struggling with this, trying to tune with a wideband O2 on street and dyno, but we can't reproduce the AFRs deterministically between runs because the ECU is still "learning" the fuel curves and adjusting them. Of course this is a non-issue for WOT tuning, but I also need to tune while not under load so that day-to-day driving works too.

What are people doing to circumvent this? And what happens if I complete a tuning session only to have the ECU continue its learning cycle and re-adjust the long term maps?

I've upgraded to 370cc injectors. We're using the airflow map and the additional injection map for fuel tuning. We are NOT using the injector size correction feature (as advised by a GReddy tech).

What else is odd is that we're NOT clamping the stock MAP sensor voltage and the stock ECU is NOT complaining -- Honda ECUs are notorious for throwing codes when MAP sensors see boost. Anyone know why I'm not seeing MAP codes? I am however seeing a P1106 code indicating out-of-range voltage from the barometric pressure sensor (which is located in the stock ECU casing). This may or may not be related to not clamping the MAP voltage. Has anyone else seen this or know how to resolve it?

If you're interested, here's some info on Honda ECUs' learning process: http://www.hondata.com/techclosed.html

Thanks in advance for any help!

StreetLevelPerformance

iTrader: (29)

I'd post this on honda-tech too they can probably offer more assistance.

Boosted2k2

iTrader: (3)

With or without the E-manage, I never got a CEL from the MAP either. I logged the voltage, and it was performing right though.

The ECU takes a while to relearn the curve. Someone had the same problem you're having with the ECU seeming to override the tuning maps. But after a while it went away.

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

I brought this question up a while back - no one seemed to know the answer at the time. The only thing I can think of is to somehow make sure the ECU doesn't lose power when you install the turbo, that way it has fuel maps stored. Than when you go to tune, it should have already made the "long term" adjustments, and shouldn't change much more than that....

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

More info on the hondata website which is good info -

Also - the best way to utilize the full functionality of the e-manage is to use the greddy pressure sensor. Using the pressure sensor you can tune the e-mange according to BOOST, vs using the TPS, which doesn't mean squat if your car is boosted. You want to be able to add more fuel as boost increases, not just the throttle.....

Boosted2k2

iTrader: (3)

^^^ also, if you have the PRofec E01 along with it, you don't need to buy the GReddy pressure sensor, because it's included. A common misconception I've seen other places.

JohnyBlaze

Ya, I have all of the optional sensors and harnesses, the Support Tool, everything.

BTW, the GReddy tech also told me NOT to use the GReddy pressure sensor and that the Honda MAP (Denso) is good to 11psi. I have also read this on Hondata. I'm tuning for 8psi.

The maps that I'm using are:

Airflow: Adjust MAP voltage (to reduce injector duty) according to TPS & RPM
Additional Injection: Add injector duty cycle according to MAP voltage & RPM

One guy on Honda-tech did say, "I know that in '99, Honda changed the point at which the ECU will throw a CEL for boost. Before that, even with 1 psi of boost the ECU would throw a CEL. '99 and later civic's seem to throw a CEL for boost around 10-11 psi of boost."

That may explain why I haven't seen a MAP code even without voltage clamping or check valves.

JohnyBlaze

To make matters worse, I'm having to reset my ECU from time to time to clear this P1106 BARO code which means the ECU never gets to complete it "learning cycle" and I'm always up against a moving target.

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

Don't listen to Greddy - they will just get you into trouble. If you want real answers to your questions search on the emanage yahoo group. I've tried to talk with Greddy on many occasions, on all they have blown me off. I have gotten the e-manage to work by talking with lots of other honda people (s2000 folks, rsx folks) - all whom have gotten their e-manage rolling without problems.

I don't think the E-manage allows you tune against the stock MAP sensor. You might be able to tune against the voltage of the MAP sensor - but near 0 PSI I wouldn't trust its accuracy. The greddy pressure sensor is specifically for tuning RPM by pressure, vs RPM vs Throttle position. If you have it, use it. As far as your CEL - I would still use the boost limit feature of the E-manage, and clamp the voltage to 2.95 volts or so (which is what it should be around 0 psi). Don't forget also, that when you modify the MAP signal, the stock ECU will also modify timing......which is another reason to A. Clamp the MAP voltage, and B. not use the stock MAP sensor to tune off of.....

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

Another option I was just thinking of - I'm not sure what the differences are between our ECU and the older style ones - but at WOT the ECU should just jump to tables, which would make tuning much easier. Trick it by wiring a 5v signal (or whatever the TPS puts out at WOT) into the TPS wire of the ECU, wire the TPS directly into the e-manage. The stock ECU would think its in WOT all the time, which would put in in open-loop mode all the time. Granted I'm not sure what else it does in WOT (ie how much timing it pulls, what else it ignores).....just an idea. Let us know how its going...

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

OR - wire up some sort of an O2 simulator to the FIRST O2 sensor to trick it, making the ECU think the fuel mixture is at stoch all the time! That might work too, than you would have more control of the fuel than before!

Boosted2k2

iTrader: (3)

that sounds like a good idea.

jwcardy

iTrader: (8)

why does this have to be so freakin confusing....

C2i0v0i1C

iTrader: (2)

i had the same code, dont remember if the shop fixed it, but right now it doesnt matter

http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/sh...77#post1898677

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

Leave it to Greddy to release something with no backup. I have tried calling them a few times.....they always tell me to talk to the shop I bought it from. I don't think that any shops in the Orlando area specialize in tuning the emanage - Titan might. I am hoping they do, as I really don't feel like driving a long distance on a non-tuned turboed vic!

StreetLevelPerformance

iTrader: (29)

If you have no other options you can go to Secret Services in St Pete.

www.secretservicesinc.com

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

Did you have your car tuned there? They seem like they know what they are doing....Only problem is, I called and asked about tuning with the E-manage. They didn't seem to like it. Funny thing is, I don't think it had anything to do with the usability of it. Reason I say that was because they said someone with a 2001 civic came in with an MF2, and they sold them RC440 injectors and VAFC, claimed it worked great. I started asking him a few questions about that - since the E-manage does exactly what the VAFC does, only more (iginition, etc) - seems kind of shady....

Greddy, once again sucks. I called and asked if there were any other shops in the area, of course they gave me titan, which doesn't seem like they want to touch it either (almost seems asif they don't have a whole lot of experience with the E-manage), and Racing Zone Autohouse - which doesn't even do tuning, just sales.

This sucks....

StreetLevelPerformance

iTrader: (29)

I didn't have my car tuned their but I planned on it. The guy that had the mf2 was 318zz here on the forum. His car ran like **** and he had the TD kit. He said they werent familiar with his setup and tried to give him another option (injectors and vafc). In the end they never got his car tuned and he was thinking about going down to SFP.

The only reason I was going to go to them is because they were highly recommended by a close friend. If they can't tune the emanage then I guess I'm out of luck too cause I was going to buy it before going there.

Honestly, since you converted to return setup and your setup is functional, I would think that they could help you more than they could 318zz. He was having issues with getting his setup to run right and the only issue you will have is that your car is untuned. I will be the guinea pig when I can save up enough for the emanage and the tune.

MadWheel

iTrader: (11)

Can someone give me a definate answer if we can use this to retard our ignition or not? I need to bring it back because I'm shooting for a lil over 15psi soon and need to get that done...

I am selling my VAFC2 because of the ingition issue alone so if someone knows for sure post up!

RoBBUsaF

lalala... edit: i found what i needed

canadian2k1si

iTrader: (5)

Just a quick question here:

I plan on installing this E-Manage, injector harness & ingition harness & Profec E1. Then driving my car to the shop where I am installing the new engine with a turbo.

Does this need tuning right away, or does it have some sort of base settings that don't change anything until the tuning begins?

Thanks

Project2k2

iTrader: (3)

That's where I will be getting my car tuned. They are a bunch of SR20 drift addicts. They have some bad *** cars and that's why I trust them with mine. Everyone around here get's theirs done there.

There is also another one. www.costaldyno.com maybe? Dunno if that link works lemme look.

TheBill

The ecu is less likely to learn around itself if you use one of the injector harnesses that are optional with the Emanage system. In the past, I used the following: main box, map sensor & harness, injector harness. With these parts, I didn't focus nearly as much on the air flow map as I did on the map that allows me to add fuel pulsewidth versus pressure (map sensor voltage from the greddy sensor). There's a limit on all of them of course, as the ecu still monitors everything. If you try to add 40% duty cycle, the ecu will trip an injector circuit code on you. If you try to add 40% more air flow, you are likely to get a map code. A combination of both in smaller numbers is a good way to get some correction towards your target airfuel ratio.

Greddy's lack of grassroots support for their products made me switch to other choices. It's as if their US distribution system is entirely to parts sellers and there aren't any of their tuners who actually use the box - rather, the dealers who do install product would rather use something more powerful instead.

That said, I was able to tune a 2003 Eclipse to 412hp at the wheel with a stock ecu and the Emanage system, and it's still going strong today (over a year later).

There's a lot of 3rd party info out there, but it is difficult to find sometimes. If anyone knows of a very inclusive listing for the Emanage of all the different jumper settings, can you post a link? It took me half a day once trying different combinations to get the right setup for a 2001 Celica, as Greddy just refuses to help you with this.

MadWheel

iTrader: (11)

in the greddy manual, it shows that every honda had the exact same setup for the "switches" located behind the plate...

believe it was 2-8-A

RoBBUsaF

yes but for our cars 4-8-c works... and if you have vtec, set it accordingly to the manual... opto and i have those settings and it works.

opto_isolator

iTrader: (8)

As to why you guys with 2-8-A have it working, I don't know. I set it to those settings at first, but kept blowing fuses because we have coil packs - the older honda's used distributors. The 4-8-C setting utilizes the new coilpack setup. The setting is designed for the S2000, but the S2000 uses pretty much the same system as our cars and the RSX. The emanage is very specific regarding the timing signals and all - if you don't have the rotary switches set right, its may not work properly...

StreetLevelPerformance

iTrader: (29)

My Emanage is coming in this week. I hooked myself up with a deal instead of waiting for the AEM EMS to come out. I will be scheduling an appointment with Secret Services very soon.

ImportRacer2123

iTrader: (13)

www.torquefreaks.com These guys can tune any Engine management or piggyback