Engine Mods?
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Engine Mods?
Hello,
I have a 2017 Civic Ex-t 6MT. Im looking at a few performance mods, but wanted some advice as this is completely out of my expertise.
Im looking at the following upgrades:
Hondata FlashPro (CARB Compliant Version, I live in California)
Mishimoto Cold Air Intake
Injen Intercooler
Cat-back exhaust - I am looking at either the aFe Takeda, or Invedia N1.
I have a couple of questions:
1. From the audio clips I have heard, I like the sound of the Takeda better, but it is double the price. Which will give me better performance gains, or are they both about equal? Is the performance increase worth it, or is it just a noise upgrade?
2. I read that after the Hondata upgrade, I would need to change to premium fuel. Is that correct? If so, what happens if 87 octane gas is used?
3. Does the Hondata have pre-programmed settings? I am looking to plug it in, press a button or sequence then unplug and be done. I dont know much about this stuff, and dont want tk have to manually set things and cause problems.
4. I've heard mixed things about CAI with the turbo. Will it increase performance? Is it worth it?
5. What about the intercooler? Is it a worthwhile upgrade? It looks to be $500-$600.
6. If I do all of the above upgrades, do I need a dyno tune after, or would I benefit from having one? What if I only do some of the upgrades?
I would appreciate any additional info or insight/advice you may have. Thanks.
I have a 2017 Civic Ex-t 6MT. Im looking at a few performance mods, but wanted some advice as this is completely out of my expertise.
Im looking at the following upgrades:
Hondata FlashPro (CARB Compliant Version, I live in California)
Mishimoto Cold Air Intake
Injen Intercooler
Cat-back exhaust - I am looking at either the aFe Takeda, or Invedia N1.
I have a couple of questions:
1. From the audio clips I have heard, I like the sound of the Takeda better, but it is double the price. Which will give me better performance gains, or are they both about equal? Is the performance increase worth it, or is it just a noise upgrade?
2. I read that after the Hondata upgrade, I would need to change to premium fuel. Is that correct? If so, what happens if 87 octane gas is used?
3. Does the Hondata have pre-programmed settings? I am looking to plug it in, press a button or sequence then unplug and be done. I dont know much about this stuff, and dont want tk have to manually set things and cause problems.
4. I've heard mixed things about CAI with the turbo. Will it increase performance? Is it worth it?
5. What about the intercooler? Is it a worthwhile upgrade? It looks to be $500-$600.
6. If I do all of the above upgrades, do I need a dyno tune after, or would I benefit from having one? What if I only do some of the upgrades?
I would appreciate any additional info or insight/advice you may have. Thanks.
Re: Engine Mods?
I’ll answer this from a turbo car perspective but not Civic specific. Josh would be better to answer the specifics.
1.) Cat back is usually a noise upgrade. Do they make upgraded down pipes you can buy? Sometimes just adding a dp and keeping the rest of the exhaust stock gives a good balance of sound and you will get a performance upgrade with a down pipe.
2.) The car will pull timing to adjust to the lower octane fuel. This kinda defeats the purpose of the tune. Part of the power increase comes from running higher octane fuel and different timing.
3.) From what I know about it yes it is plug n play. You can switch it off and on but not sure how long it takes or what is involved.
4.) Generally they just increase noise and throttle response but adding a tune can help get the most out of it and get you some power. I would search this individually for the Honda engine as every engine responds to mods differently.
5.) If you lived down south with the humidity an intercooler is usually a good upgrade. That being said you can determine that for yourself during the summer. If you find the car is less responsive and down on power after sitting in traffic or doing WOT pulls then an intercooler might be a good upgrade. In California where it is dry you might be ok.
6.) Not needed but always a good idea to get the most out of the car. Of the shelf tunes can make great power but a tuner can play with data to extract the most out of the engine and the mods that you have. Custom tunes are best for maximum power IMO. I went with a OTS tune because I don’t live near a tuner and don’t have the time to be spending all day there and going back. I am also not looking to extract the most out of my car and just want to have some fun. These are some things to consider and you can always call local Honda tuners to see what they have to say. Maybe it’s a 1 hour session and you are good to go. Maybe you have to do some driving logs and send them in then do a dyno run.
1.) Cat back is usually a noise upgrade. Do they make upgraded down pipes you can buy? Sometimes just adding a dp and keeping the rest of the exhaust stock gives a good balance of sound and you will get a performance upgrade with a down pipe.
2.) The car will pull timing to adjust to the lower octane fuel. This kinda defeats the purpose of the tune. Part of the power increase comes from running higher octane fuel and different timing.
3.) From what I know about it yes it is plug n play. You can switch it off and on but not sure how long it takes or what is involved.
4.) Generally they just increase noise and throttle response but adding a tune can help get the most out of it and get you some power. I would search this individually for the Honda engine as every engine responds to mods differently.
5.) If you lived down south with the humidity an intercooler is usually a good upgrade. That being said you can determine that for yourself during the summer. If you find the car is less responsive and down on power after sitting in traffic or doing WOT pulls then an intercooler might be a good upgrade. In California where it is dry you might be ok.
6.) Not needed but always a good idea to get the most out of the car. Of the shelf tunes can make great power but a tuner can play with data to extract the most out of the engine and the mods that you have. Custom tunes are best for maximum power IMO. I went with a OTS tune because I don’t live near a tuner and don’t have the time to be spending all day there and going back. I am also not looking to extract the most out of my car and just want to have some fun. These are some things to consider and you can always call local Honda tuners to see what they have to say. Maybe it’s a 1 hour session and you are good to go. Maybe you have to do some driving logs and send them in then do a dyno run.
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I’ll answer this from a turbo car perspective but not Civic specific. Josh would be better to answer the specifics.
1.) Cat back is usually a noise upgrade. Do they make upgraded down pipes you can buy? Sometimes just adding a dp and keeping the rest of the exhaust stock gives a good balance of sound and you will get a performance upgrade with a down pipe.
2.) The car will pull timing to adjust to the lower octane fuel. This kinda defeats the purpose of the tune. Part of the power increase comes from running higher octane fuel and different timing.
3.) From what I know about it yes it is plug n play. You can switch it off and on but not sure how long it takes or what is involved.
4.) Generally they just increase noise and throttle response but adding a tune can help get the most out of it and get you some power. I would search this individually for the Honda engine as every engine responds to mods differently.
5.) If you lived down south with the humidity an intercooler is usually a good upgrade. That being said you can determine that for yourself during the summer. If you find the car is less responsive and down on power after sitting in traffic or doing WOT pulls then an intercooler might be a good upgrade. In California where it is dry you might be ok.
6.) Not needed but always a good idea to get the most out of the car. Of the shelf tunes can make great power but a tuner can play with data to extract the most out of the engine and the mods that you have. Custom tunes are best for maximum power IMO. I went with a OTS tune because I don’t live near a tuner and don’t have the time to be spending all day there and going back. I am also not looking to extract the most out of my car and just want to have some fun. These are some things to consider and you can always call local Honda tuners to see what they have to say. Maybe it’s a 1 hour session and you are good to go. Maybe you have to do some driving logs and send them in then do a dyno run.
1.) Cat back is usually a noise upgrade. Do they make upgraded down pipes you can buy? Sometimes just adding a dp and keeping the rest of the exhaust stock gives a good balance of sound and you will get a performance upgrade with a down pipe.
2.) The car will pull timing to adjust to the lower octane fuel. This kinda defeats the purpose of the tune. Part of the power increase comes from running higher octane fuel and different timing.
3.) From what I know about it yes it is plug n play. You can switch it off and on but not sure how long it takes or what is involved.
4.) Generally they just increase noise and throttle response but adding a tune can help get the most out of it and get you some power. I would search this individually for the Honda engine as every engine responds to mods differently.
5.) If you lived down south with the humidity an intercooler is usually a good upgrade. That being said you can determine that for yourself during the summer. If you find the car is less responsive and down on power after sitting in traffic or doing WOT pulls then an intercooler might be a good upgrade. In California where it is dry you might be ok.
6.) Not needed but always a good idea to get the most out of the car. Of the shelf tunes can make great power but a tuner can play with data to extract the most out of the engine and the mods that you have. Custom tunes are best for maximum power IMO. I went with a OTS tune because I don’t live near a tuner and don’t have the time to be spending all day there and going back. I am also not looking to extract the most out of my car and just want to have some fun. These are some things to consider and you can always call local Honda tuners to see what they have to say. Maybe it’s a 1 hour session and you are good to go. Maybe you have to do some driving logs and send them in then do a dyno run.
Here is a complete noob question. Is there a difference between a tune and what the Hondata unit does? Will tuning the car change the same settings that the Hondata unit already changed for me? Is this a choice between one or the other, or is it best to get a tune after using the Hondata?
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Re: Engine Mods?
You might loose power with a different intercooler.
If you're pushing 14psi at the turbo energy is lost and pressure is decreases pushing past the waffles inside the intercooler.
(if you were running full throttles for ever, it should reach near 14psi, but with real world driving usually some pressure is lost in order to push through the cooler)
There is a balance needed between cooling to increase density/keep engine temperatures low, and air flow.
If you're pushing 14psi at the turbo energy is lost and pressure is decreases pushing past the waffles inside the intercooler.
(if you were running full throttles for ever, it should reach near 14psi, but with real world driving usually some pressure is lost in order to push through the cooler)
There is a balance needed between cooling to increase density/keep engine temperatures low, and air flow.
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Wait. Before I chime in, gotta get a specific down. You sure you have a 6MT? Only usdm trims that come in the manual are the LX/Sport/Si/R
Joined: Aug 2003
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1) I retract my previous post. I was mistaken. I've pretty much looked specifically at hatch related stuff bc I have a hatch. So, my bad.
2) I'll answer questions.
Sure, it'll give a bit of a performance bump, but for the price, IMO not worth it. As much as I'd like a slightly more aggressive exhaust note, the cost vs. performance aspect isn't worth it for me. Then again, I haven't heard an exhaust note that I like, and with me having a Sport hatch with the center mount exhaust, I can bolt up the FK8 exhaust if I really wanted to. It's also a bit more free flowing than the stock EX/LX exhausts. That said, I can't be of much help here.
Word on the street is you'll see like a 6hp deficit. I still wouldn't risk it, but that's just me. I did an experiment with my car using 87 vs 91 octane (again, since I have a sport, it's meant to adjust for either because of the different knock sensor), and I found a huge fuel economy difference in favor of 91 octane all other factors being fairly equal (road trip from Vegas to NorCal). I've been using 91 octane exclusively since then. Cliffs notes of my experiment: flat highway driving (99% highway miles) with cruise set at 83mph on 87 octane, average fuel economy didn't breach 33mpg. Same conditions with 91 octane, average fuel economy didn't drop below 36mpg, often staying in the 38-44 range. There was also a noticeable increase in throttle response. Do with that information what you will, but the 87 vs 91 octane in my tank was decided by that, and I haven't bothered with 87 anymore.
As far as I know, plug it into the OBD port, hook up a computer to it (that has the installed FlashProManager program), and use that to flash your ECU. There are basemaps (maybe just the one +6PSI basemap? I'm not 100% sure) built in. Honda did a cool thing with the 10thgen and put a rewritable ECU in there from the factory. After the flash, you can either keep it plugged in for datalogging purposes or take it out and save it for if/when you wanna flash back to stock.
Honestly, another one of those bang for buck upgrades I didn't think was worth it. I went the DIY route (I have a DIY guide on the forum) and spent $60 on a home-grown short ram. My buddy with a '16 EX-T spent $400 on an intake I liked the design of but couldn't justify the price (27WON). My car still pulls harder than his and the turbo sounds are a lot more distinct than his. I wanted an intake because I wanted turbo sounds, to be completely honest. However, here's a list of intake to look into:
You'll notice an increase in turbo lag (due to extra volume to be filled between the turbo and the throttle body), but you'll notice a decrease in charge temps. I haven't noticed any heat issues, and I don't actively track my car, so I didn't see any use for one.. Yet. We'll see what happens with this tune and Vegas summer coming up.
You don't need one, necessarily. Hondata did their homework and included safe working basemaps for the increase in boost. Furthermore, with the CARB legal version to which you're restricted, Hondata was only able to get away with that by making the tune non-modifiable. If you got the non-CARB version (or KTuner), you can, for a price, send your datalogs to e-tuners that'll analyze and modify the tune for your setup and safely squeeze out some extra horses. Find someone that can mod the flash, it pretty much makes it not CARB compliant anymore.
edit: added stuff.
2) I'll answer questions.
1. From the audio clips I have heard, I like the sound of the Takeda better, but it is double the price. Which will give me better performance gains, or are they both about equal? Is the performance increase worth it, or is it just a noise upgrade?
2. I read that after the Hondata upgrade, I would need to change to premium fuel. Is that correct? If so, what happens if 87 octane gas is used?
3. Does the Hondata have pre-programmed settings? I am looking to plug it in, press a button or sequence then unplug and be done. I dont know much about this stuff, and dont want tk have to manually set things and cause problems.
4. I've heard mixed things about CAI with the turbo. Will it increase performance? Is it worth it?
-PRL Motorsports Cobra CAI or SRI
-27WON
-aFE Takeda Momentum (though, I've heard very mixed reviews on this one)
-27WON
-aFE Takeda Momentum (though, I've heard very mixed reviews on this one)
5. What about the intercooler? Is it a worthwhile upgrade? It looks to be $500-$600.
6. If I do all of the above upgrades, do I need a dyno tune after, or would I benefit from having one? What if I only do some of the upgrades?
edit: added stuff.
Last edited by xRiCeBoYx; Feb 6, 2019 at 12:23 PM.
Re: Engine Mods?
Inter-cooler upgrade at stock to slightly above stock boost levels is probably not needed. Again see how the car handles heat soak and if it has issues.
The Hondata unit is a tune it's just an "Off the shelf" tune. It still changes engine parameters away from stock to increase power. Adding a "custom" tune on top can yield more power as a tuner can change and edit parameters. From what Josh was saying it sounds like the Hondata is locked and can't be adjusted by a tuner so you would need something like the KTuner if you want a custom tune. A custom tune is best IMO but not for everyone.
This would be better then a exhaust IMO
https://www.maperformance.com/products/afe-twisted-steel-street-down-pipe-2016-2017-honda-civic-1-5t-48-36604-hc?variant=89737134083&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI14mw84Go4 AIViT5pCh0JUQBKEAQYBSABEgLdxvD_BwE
This is for an Si but you can see between the different graphs what a tuner like KTuner can do when parts like downpipes are added.
https://www.rv6-p.com/rv6-tm-modular...-civic-si.html
Here is a complete noob question. Is there a difference between a tune and what the Hondata unit does? Will tuning the car change the same settings that the Hondata unit already changed for me? Is this a choice between one or the other, or is it best to get a tune after using the Hondata?
This would be better then a exhaust IMO
https://www.maperformance.com/products/afe-twisted-steel-street-down-pipe-2016-2017-honda-civic-1-5t-48-36604-hc?variant=89737134083&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI14mw84Go4 AIViT5pCh0JUQBKEAQYBSABEgLdxvD_BwE
This is for an Si but you can see between the different graphs what a tuner like KTuner can do when parts like downpipes are added.
https://www.rv6-p.com/rv6-tm-modular...-civic-si.html
Last edited by GolNat; Feb 6, 2019 at 03:21 PM. Reason: added link
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I had a 2017 si and went with the ktuner v2. Got thru Vit before he went strictly motec.
Has his extra tune also that was additional $250.
Best performance mod you can do for the $$#.
Plus you can always unlock it from your car and sell anytime.
Has 5 different tunes it can hold.
I have it posted for sale if interested.
Has his extra tune also that was additional $250.
Best performance mod you can do for the $$#.
Plus you can always unlock it from your car and sell anytime.
Has 5 different tunes it can hold.
I have it posted for sale if interested.
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