Just finished traffic court... some info
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Just finished traffic court... some info
Hi guys,
I went to traffic court a couple of days ago, and all the cops for the timeslot showed up. All the ticket-fighters pleaded guilty to a reduced speed for the speeders, while I was planning to fight my ticket as per the sticky post.
I chased one ticket-fighter outside the court room and asked him why he chose to plead to a reduced speed. He said it was to save his client the points. I asked why he didn't fight to have the ticket thrown out, and his reply: "well, the officer is here, and he's a qualified professional with respect to his laser and his job, he's a credible witness, it's not doable."
So I chatted with a couple more ticket-fighters (I don't know if they were ex-cops, or paralegals, lawyers, etc), as well as an active cop. Turned out, the cops are now recognized as a professional expert in all those areas that people typically challenge them. Basically:
yes, the laser is fully calibrated and tested
yes, it was aimed at the defendant's car
no, I did not make a mistake judging the speed or aiming the laser
yes, I am fully qualified and I make no mistake
So apparently the police's evidence is no longer challengeable (the conclusion I came up with after speaking with all those people), and the only way to have the ticket thrown out is if the cop is a no-show. WOW that's good info to know... I was almost ready to put in a fight until I thought there was something wrong...
Anyone else win a case recently other than having the cop as a no-show? Just curious...
I went to traffic court a couple of days ago, and all the cops for the timeslot showed up. All the ticket-fighters pleaded guilty to a reduced speed for the speeders, while I was planning to fight my ticket as per the sticky post.
I chased one ticket-fighter outside the court room and asked him why he chose to plead to a reduced speed. He said it was to save his client the points. I asked why he didn't fight to have the ticket thrown out, and his reply: "well, the officer is here, and he's a qualified professional with respect to his laser and his job, he's a credible witness, it's not doable."
So I chatted with a couple more ticket-fighters (I don't know if they were ex-cops, or paralegals, lawyers, etc), as well as an active cop. Turned out, the cops are now recognized as a professional expert in all those areas that people typically challenge them. Basically:
yes, the laser is fully calibrated and tested
yes, it was aimed at the defendant's car
no, I did not make a mistake judging the speed or aiming the laser
yes, I am fully qualified and I make no mistake
So apparently the police's evidence is no longer challengeable (the conclusion I came up with after speaking with all those people), and the only way to have the ticket thrown out is if the cop is a no-show. WOW that's good info to know... I was almost ready to put in a fight until I thought there was something wrong...
Anyone else win a case recently other than having the cop as a no-show? Just curious...
I have the OEM version of weight reduction. DX
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Rep Power: 315 I can vouch for that. Our driver had to go to court to fight a couple of BS tickets and while he was waiting for his case to come up, the judge called on a woman who was cought doing 170 km/h on the 417. The cop showed up, the lady DIDN'T!!!! After the cop did his shpeal about where he cought her, how fast she was going blah blah blah, the Judge replied with, "Are you trained on the laser detector?" the cop replied with "yes I am" The the Judge said, "Out of all the years I have been a Judge, I have never had to do this. This case has been dismissed." he dismissed the whole case b/c the cop didn't say he was a professional on the laser. (He had to be asked.) The lady didn't show up for court and she got off with NOTHING!!!
Last edited by EŽik; Sep 8, 2006 at 03:40 PM.
Originally Posted by DnarahP
I can vouch for that. Our driver had to go to court to fight a couple of BS tickets and while he was waiting for his case to come up, the judge called on a woman who was cought doing 170 km/h on the 417. The cop showed up, the lady DIDN'T!!!! After the cop did his shpeal about where he cought her, how fast she was going blah blah blah, the Judge replied with, "Are you trained on the laser detector?" the cop replied with "yes I am" The the Judge said, "Out of all the years I have been a Judge, I have never had to do this. This case has been dismissed." he dismissed the whole case b/c the cop didn't say he was a professional on the laser. (He had to be asked.) The lady didn't show up for court and she got off with NOTHING!!!
did the judge say he thrown it out b/c the cop didnt say he was a professional on the laser? or was that your conclusion after reading this?
just curious.....
Originally Posted by Me from the Sticky
Hey guys,
Haven't been on here in a while. I went to court this past week with my brother for his 130 in a 100 (He says he was probably going around 140) anyways we followed the method I described above and went to court. Our cop was the ONLY cop that showed up, I told my brother to bring insurance documents showing how much he was paying for insurance. My brothers problem was that 1 more ticket and hes back to facility insurance, so the crown offered to drop it to 115 in a 100 no points. This is the trap, my brother is screwed regardless of 115 or 130. My brother has no points on his license so the addition of a few is trivial. He talked to the officer for 5 minutes and basically kept pleading, showing him his insurance receipts and telling him the horrors of facility insurance. The cop progressivly softend up.
The officer told him to wait a second, and went to go talk to the frustrated and overall bitchy crown. The officer came back and said "there's no evidence" and they are withdrawing the charge. I can promise you one thing, he wouldn't have just said that without the 5 minute beg a thon. The cop is often your only way out of a ticket, crowns just dont care. We were a half hour early (over estimated for traffic) and spoke to the officer immidiatly after he identified himself to the courts. Keep in mind being early means his cases are dealt with the earlier and HE gets to go home early, all factors when it comes to someone doing you a favour.
Chalk one up for Adam!
Remember when I said that our cop was the ONLY cop to show? Well someone hired a paralegal and didn't show up in court instead foolishly signed an agreement for a prearranged deal to drop his 145 in a 100 to a 125 in a 100. Now as good a deal as you may think this is (its the average walk in plea guilty deal) the officer DIDNT SHOW UP. Yes if that person had actually come to court, he would have learned that the officer didn't show up, and would have gotten off. Instead his scum bag paralegal went through with the deal and that person got convicted.
Be careful with paralegals, remember a paralegal is NOT a lawyer, (s)he is an agent. Just like I was to my brother....
Haven't been on here in a while. I went to court this past week with my brother for his 130 in a 100 (He says he was probably going around 140) anyways we followed the method I described above and went to court. Our cop was the ONLY cop that showed up, I told my brother to bring insurance documents showing how much he was paying for insurance. My brothers problem was that 1 more ticket and hes back to facility insurance, so the crown offered to drop it to 115 in a 100 no points. This is the trap, my brother is screwed regardless of 115 or 130. My brother has no points on his license so the addition of a few is trivial. He talked to the officer for 5 minutes and basically kept pleading, showing him his insurance receipts and telling him the horrors of facility insurance. The cop progressivly softend up.
The officer told him to wait a second, and went to go talk to the frustrated and overall bitchy crown. The officer came back and said "there's no evidence" and they are withdrawing the charge. I can promise you one thing, he wouldn't have just said that without the 5 minute beg a thon. The cop is often your only way out of a ticket, crowns just dont care. We were a half hour early (over estimated for traffic) and spoke to the officer immidiatly after he identified himself to the courts. Keep in mind being early means his cases are dealt with the earlier and HE gets to go home early, all factors when it comes to someone doing you a favour.
Chalk one up for Adam!
Remember when I said that our cop was the ONLY cop to show? Well someone hired a paralegal and didn't show up in court instead foolishly signed an agreement for a prearranged deal to drop his 145 in a 100 to a 125 in a 100. Now as good a deal as you may think this is (its the average walk in plea guilty deal) the officer DIDNT SHOW UP. Yes if that person had actually come to court, he would have learned that the officer didn't show up, and would have gotten off. Instead his scum bag paralegal went through with the deal and that person got convicted.
Be careful with paralegals, remember a paralegal is NOT a lawyer, (s)he is an agent. Just like I was to my brother....
read the above first then the below
An officer of the law has not just started to be an expert witness they have always been. Police officers are granted authority to regulate the HTA and thus they are trusted expert witnesses. If you read through my sticky at no point is my advice to try and beat a cop in court. Rather play all the options availible to you and basically try and get the officer to help you out. The only ways Ive gotten out of tickets was 2 no shows and 2 where the officer helped me out. If you read the above post it falls into the category of the officer helping me out.
The real tip I think I would like to give people is to really question how bad points are. As bad as you think it might be to have a few points on your license it all comes down to your insurance, your insurance company in general doesn't care about points. They care about convictions, the insurance companies know all about the "walk into court plea guility and no points" routine. Your goal is to get off a ticket, frankly if I cant get the cop or crown to help me out I'd rather go up infront of a judge, tell him my story and have him decide my destiny. I mean you've gone through all the effort of filing a motion to come to court, you send in your disclosure (for back up purposes) and then what? You just plea guility to the first offer they give you?
Seems like waste of time to me. Frankly i'd rather have a judge punish me then some crown prosecutor. Remember you can still go before a judge and recommend a punishment when pleaing guility.
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Rep Power: 0 I think the main difference is whether you get caught at a speed trap or not... I think if it's a speed trap, the officer will show up with a big stack of tickets (which, during my trial, they did) and testify against everyone challenging them.
Actually, I stayed into the next trial timeslot, and none of the officers showed up... because all the cases were caught on the street while patrolling, type of thing (I spoke with a gentleman and he said he got a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign and a cop turned around to stop him... cop didn't show), so it's hard to say.
But yeah, I went in there fully prepared to argue with the cop about his evidence, but I guess I was intimidated by the price difference ($40 vs $140 if I lost).
Actually, I stayed into the next trial timeslot, and none of the officers showed up... because all the cases were caught on the street while patrolling, type of thing (I spoke with a gentleman and he said he got a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign and a cop turned around to stop him... cop didn't show), so it's hard to say.
But yeah, I went in there fully prepared to argue with the cop about his evidence, but I guess I was intimidated by the price difference ($40 vs $140 if I lost).
No I dont think the speed trap matters. Its an officers duty to go to court. They get paid for it so its not like they regret doing it. Afterall the cop doesn't do much then say present when they call badge number xxxx. Ive only had 2 incidents of officers not showing up and Ive been fighting tickets for family and friends for a while. Also while sitting in on court an overwhelming majority of the time the officers are present.
I have a feeling when I was there the reason so many officers didn't show up was because of a big rain storm that knocked out lights in North York. Since the officers that give you tickets are usually done by Traffic Services a unit of the Toronto Police that deals with traffic matters, like patrolling intersections when the lights go out so I suppose it makes sense. If your on a highway your almost always getting pulled over by traffic services or O.P.P unless your travelling at stupid speeds your average cop wont bother pulling you over because they have better things to do (like a list of calls they need to satisfy on their laptop)
In any case basing your ticket on the hopes that an officer doesn't show up is not the best tactic. However going back to the OP's point of being intimidated this is exactly what I warn against in my sticky. This is why you ask for disclosure so if a cop is being a ***** and doesn't want to help you out you can at least put it off to another day. Yes it might cost you a morning of work (try and file for night court if its easier) BUT you increase the odds the officer wont show up and generally make his life more difficult.
With regards to how many tickets an officer feels like dealing with they give the courts their availability and the courts schedule how many cases the cop should deal with. They have some influence with regards to their available dates but its mainly the court that decides that. Tickets may be given on the same date but their not submitted to the courts on the same date.
Hope this post helps in the future
I have a feeling when I was there the reason so many officers didn't show up was because of a big rain storm that knocked out lights in North York. Since the officers that give you tickets are usually done by Traffic Services a unit of the Toronto Police that deals with traffic matters, like patrolling intersections when the lights go out so I suppose it makes sense. If your on a highway your almost always getting pulled over by traffic services or O.P.P unless your travelling at stupid speeds your average cop wont bother pulling you over because they have better things to do (like a list of calls they need to satisfy on their laptop)
In any case basing your ticket on the hopes that an officer doesn't show up is not the best tactic. However going back to the OP's point of being intimidated this is exactly what I warn against in my sticky. This is why you ask for disclosure so if a cop is being a ***** and doesn't want to help you out you can at least put it off to another day. Yes it might cost you a morning of work (try and file for night court if its easier) BUT you increase the odds the officer wont show up and generally make his life more difficult.
With regards to how many tickets an officer feels like dealing with they give the courts their availability and the courts schedule how many cases the cop should deal with. They have some influence with regards to their available dates but its mainly the court that decides that. Tickets may be given on the same date but their not submitted to the courts on the same date.
Hope this post helps in the future
Last edited by AggressiveAdam; Sep 23, 2006 at 09:48 AM.
basically, you need to request disclosure (instructions in sticky). I to this day have never recevied disclosure, though im sure its nothing special. With proof of a request for disclosure you can get an adjournment. They might try and talk you out of it questioning why you need it, but they have no right to proceed without you having it.
You are guarenteed at least 1 adjournment for that reason.
Second
You can tell the judge your overwhelemed by the crown and would like to seek a paralegal. They will always grant you 1 adjournment but thats it. The adjournment for paralegals is something like 2-4 weeks.
Disclosure is your best bet
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